Can we stop wasting Rondale Moore?

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I think it's safe to say that teams have figured out what we do with Rondale and take it away quite successfully.

It's hasn't work since Game 5 when he was averaging 12 yards per target. Since he's averaged less than 5.

It's not fooling anybody any more. We need to change how we use him, or at least not make it ALL behind the LOS.

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Been saying that. Why he is not bring used the same way Andy Reid uses T. Hill is beyond me? The kid is very talented

Hill is way more cerebral than given credit for. He knows the entire route tree.

Well KK needs to start telling Jefferson or Jerry Sullivan to start teaching Moore the expanded route tree then.

 

[juza76]

Been saying that. Why he is not bring used the same way Andy Reid uses T. Hill is beyond me? The kid is very talented

Well KK needs to start telling Jefferson or Jerry Sullivan to start teaching Moore the expanded route tree then.

Normally rookies makes progress and increase their snaps counts as the season goes on, Cardinals are the outlier
Moore his impact dropped drastically
Collins from 20 snaps to zero
Marco Wilson seems the same player as day 1
Not a rookie but.. 2nd year Jones benched for older players who hasn't bring much more , at least Jones was better run blocker
This is more on the coaching staff then rookies fault

 

[BritCard]

On these issues, I tend to trust the coaching staff who just have VOLUMES more information than we do.

Maybe on those routes where the quarterback "just missed" Moore, it was actually the WR that was in the wrong place by running a sloppy route.

Maybe Moore is consistently taking the wrong option when he has an option route?

If that's the case why are his snaps generally increasing?

His EPA is a negative on the team at the moment. If they don't trust him to run anything else they shouldn't play him less because it's actually hurting us.

 

[kerouac9]

If that's the case why are his snaps generally increasing?

His EPA is a negative on the team at the moment. If they don;t trust him to run anything else they should play him less because it's actually hurting us.

Because DHop is playing fewer snaps, I suspect. And because he’s playing well in his role, I’d guess.

EPA doesn’t matter to me. Sorry. He’s doing okay in his role trying to bring defenders up by being modestly productive.

 

[DaHilg]

Tired of all the sideways decoy or not stuff with Moore. Show it once or twice but I would rather have him be that up the field WR and use his cutting ability to get open. I don’t think many 3rd or 4th CBs could consistently stay with him. Time to turn him loose

This 100%… Kliffy has received quite a bit of love on this board, but in reality his play calling and adjustments really haven’t improved much. The team just got that much more talented in the off-season. Outside of really the Titans and 1st Rams game I haven’t been impressed with the offensive schemes period.

 

[Russ Smith]

I now have to decide do I start Kirk, or start Ameer Abdullah? It sounds dumb but you get points for KO returns and last week Abdullah outscored most of my Wr's because of that. I have AJ Green now and am starting him, but with D Hop out I'm concerned the role changes for Kirk and he sees more double coverage so I am figuring Green not he has the breakout.

I rewatched parts of the game AJ could have had a HUGE game. The miss on the first drive whoevers fault that's a 35 yard play should have been a TD fell incomplete. The offsetting penalties play where Garcia didn't actually hold that's a 26 yard play. Then you have the play where AJ falls down at the 8 yard line if he keeps his feet it's a TD. So IF we made those plays Green has another 69 yards and 2 TD's. 9 catches 171 yards 2 TD so I have some hope he CAN step up with Hopkins out.

 

[SoonerLou]

I now have to decide do I start Kirk, or start Ameer Abdullah? It sounds dumb but you get points for KO returns and last week Abdullah outscored most of my Wr's because of that. I have AJ Green now and am starting him, but with D Hop out I'm concerned the role changes for Kirk and he sees more double coverage so I am figuring Green not he has the breakout.

I rewatched parts of the game AJ could have had a HUGE game. The miss on the first drive whoevers fault that's a 35 yard play should have been a TD fell incomplete. The offsetting penalties play where Garcia didn't actually hold that's a 26 yard play. Then you have the play where AJ falls down at the 8 yard line if he keeps his feet it's a TD. So IF we made those plays Green has another 69 yards and 2 TD's. 9 catches 171 yards 2 TD so I have some hope he CAN step up with Hopkins out.

Thing is the play Green falls down on is probably a TD if thats Hopkins. Not sure we're getting that play from Green. He's just not been much of a run after catch guy this year. I think if Kirk really wants to earn big money this off season now is the time. Now Kyler is going to have to play more conservative I think.

IF Andy could just be productive we'd still have another deep threat to use. Sadly it appears the coaching staff feels he's a lost cause.

 

[Russ Smith]

Thing is the play Green falls down on is probably a TD if thats Hopkins. Not sure we're getting that play from Green. He's just not been much of a run after catch guy this year. I think if Kirk really wants to earn big money this off season now is the time. Now Kyler is going to have to play more conservative I think.

IF Andy could just be productive we'd still have another deep threat to use. Sadly it appears the coaching staff feels he's a lost cause.

his first TD this year was a screen he took to the house. Not saying he's great after the catch but the point is he very easily could have had 171 and 2 TD's on monday. IMO right now it's more likely he steps up than Kirk does because I think Kirk's role changes more and he probably sees more double coverage now without D Hop. Kirk didn't have a TD in the 3 games D Hop missed, had 91 in the first game then 58 and 25, all of course with colt not Murray.

AJ missed the SF game with Covid, he was clearly not 100% in the Carolina game he just didnt' look right the whole game 1 catch 5 yards. Then against Seattle 4 for 78. Kirk has been better than AJ this year I just think his role will change more than AJ's will. Plus Kirk has never been the man before, Green has been most of his career so mentally it's probably easier for him

 

[Arz101]

Hear me, may be Moore is not as good as advertised when it comes to playing full WR routes in first season? Next year will get different good.

 

[BritCard]

Because DHop is playing fewer snaps, I suspect. And because he’s playing well in his role, I’d guess.

EPA doesn’t matter to me. Sorry. He’s doing okay in his role trying to bring defenders up by being modestly productive.

If they want to get the most out of him he needs more variation.

Kliff needs to make the defense think "Is Moore going to stay in the flat from this pre snap movement or is this going to turn into a wheel route?" rather than knowing every single time he's staying in the flat.

 

[kerouac9]

If they want to get the most out of him he needs more variation.

Kliff needs to make the defense think "Is Moore going to stay in the flat from this pre snap movement or is this going to turn into a wheel route?" rather than knowing every single time he's staying in the flat.

The pass offense has been going pretty well (5th in pass offense DVOA), so I don't know how much you want to adjust that offense to optimize for your #4 WR.

#1 in catch rate, #59 in receiving DYAR. Definitely need to get this guy more involved and start altering your Top 5 offense.

The problem is our 26th-ranked run game.

 

[Russ Smith]

The pass offense has been going pretty well (5th in pass offense DVOA), so I don't know how much you want to adjust that offense to optimize for your #4 WR.

#1 in catch rate, #59 in receiving DYAR. Definitely need to get this guy more involved and start altering your Top 5 offense.

The problem is our 26th-ranked run game.

But he's our #3 now with D Hop out. The run game is true though Conner is amazing in the red zone but without Edmonds we have been lacking. Kyler ran it well against the Rams but we don't want him to have to do that. Hopefully Edmonds is back now and hopefully Conner's ankle isn't a thing to worry about. If we can't beat the Lions there's no point worrying beyond that but after that game, indy, Dallas and Seattle are all games we could lose if we don't improve so without D Hop that hopefully means better run game.

Also the run defense has to improve, Indy and Dallas both have excellent run games

But it sure would be a hell of a time for Green to dial back the clock several years for a few games, and for Rondale to take the next step

 

[BritCard]

The pass offense has been going pretty well (5th in pass offense DVOA), so I don't know how much you want to adjust that offense to optimize for your #4 WR.

#1 in catch rate, #59 in receiving DYAR. Definitely need to get this guy more involved and start altering your Top 5 offense.

The problem is our 26th-ranked run game.

Why wouldn't you always want to optimize it? If we are #1 there are 4 more spots we could be better.

The thing is Moore fits a very specific role at the moment that we were told to would unlock Kliff's offense. The missing piece. But it's not working any more, and I assume kliff would prefer it to work.

The only options are change, or keep not working.

 

[kerouac9]

But he's our #3 now with D Hop out. The run game is true though Conner is amazing in the red zone but without Edmonds we have been lacking. Kyler ran it well against the Rams but we don't want him to have to do that. Hopefully Edmonds is back now and hopefully Conner's ankle isn't a thing to worry about. If we can't beat the Lions there's no point worrying beyond that but after that game, indy, Dallas and Seattle are all games we could lose if we don't improve so without D Hop that hopefully means better run game.

Also the run defense has to improve, Indy and Dallas both have excellent run games

But it sure would be a hell of a time for Green to dial back the clock several years for a few games, and for Rondale to take the next step

Is he, though? He can't play on the outside. When we go 11 personnel, I'm guessing we put Travis Wesley out there.

None of this means that Rondale Moore won't improve; I just don't expect his role to increase much this season.

Also, I think "the run defense has to improve" isn't correct, either. We're a Top 5 defense right now by DVOA, and we're 12th against the run. The run game is fine. The fact of the matter is that (once again) our offense isn't good enough and it's the reason we're losing games. Some of that is no Kyler for three games, but a lot of it is settling for field goals or turning the ball over in the red zone.

Why wouldn't you always want to optimize it? If we are #1 there are 4 more spots we could be better.

The thing is Moore fits a very specific role at the moment that we were told to would unlock Kliff's offense. The missing piece. But it's not working any more, and I assume kliff would prefer it to work.

The only options are change, or keep not working.

Because you get into diminishing returns at that point. How much work are you going to do to move up a couple of spots, and what is the cost of that adjustment to what's already working.

The passing offense continues to work. Part of the problem is Rondale Moore has two broken tackles in 51 receptions (per pro football reference). We need a more productive and efficient running game to move the offense forward.

Our passing offense went from 14th in DVOA last year to 5th so far this year. Maybe that goes down, but there's little doubt that Rondale's performance in his current role (as well as adding a Zach Ertz) has been a key component.

 

[Russ Smith]

Is he, though? He can't play on the outside. When we go 11 personnel, I'm guessing we put Travis Wesley out there.

None of this means that Rondale Moore won't improve; I just don't expect his role to increase much this season.

Also, I think "the run defense has to improve" isn't correct, either. We're a Top 5 defense right now by DVOA, and we're 12th against the run. The run game is fine. The fact of the matter is that (once again) our offense isn't good enough and it's the reason we're losing games. Some of that is no Kyler for three games, but a lot of it is settling for field goals or turning the ball over in the red zone.



Because you get into diminishing returns at that point. How much work are you going to do to move up a couple of spots, and what is the cost of that adjustment to what's already working.

The passing offense continues to work. Part of the problem is Rondale Moore has two broken tackles in 51 receptions (per pro football reference). We need a more productive and efficient running game to move the offense forward.

Our passing offense went from 14th in DVOA last year to 5th so far this year. Maybe that goes down, but there's little doubt that Rondale's performance in his current role (as well as adding a Zach Ertz) has been a key component.

I need more context on the run defense. if it's yards part of that is because we've been ahead in most of the games so teams are throwing from behind not running. We have struggled to stop good running teams, especially without Watt. Colts have the best RB in the NFL in Taylor(pure running) and the Cowboys have 2 very good RB's, we're going to have to play better against the run against them IMO.

I agree the D was not the problem against the Rams the turnovers were. Edmonds back would be a huge pickup right now to offset some of the loss of D Hop.

I guess I don't have the snap counts for the games Hop missed you may be right that Wesley played more than Rondale in those games.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I need more context on the run defense. if it's yards part of that is because we've been ahead in most of the games so teams are throwing from behind not running. We have struggled to stop good running teams, especially without Watt. Colts have the best RB in the NFL in Taylor(pure running) and the Cowboys have 2 very good RB's, we're going to have to play better against the run against them IMO.

I agree the D was not the problem against the Rams the turnovers were. Edmonds back would be a huge pickup right now to offset some of the loss of D Hop.

I guess I don't have the snap counts for the games Hop missed you may be right that Wesley played more than Rondale in those games.

Um what? They allowed scores on 6 straight possessions including 4 TDs? Unless you mean Run D specifically...

 

[Russ Smith]

Um what? They allowed scores on 6 straight possessions including 4 TDs? Unless you mean Run D specifically...

Because the turnovers contributed to that. we had 2 INT's they scored 14 points off them. The first one they went 68 yards, the second one only 19. Sure the D could have played better and again part of the issue was the run defense forced our safeties to come up and then went over the top on us but the defense still played well enough to win the game if we didn't have the turnovers.

It was 5 straight a TD after a pick, a FG, a FG before the half, a TD to start the 2nd half, and a TD after a pick. After the 2nd TD of the 2nd half off the pick by the DE and the short field, the Rams had less than 80 yards of offense for the rest of the game, in about 25 minutes.

The defense wasn't great but those 2 turnovers, both great plays by the Rams, were a big part of why the defense gave up 30 points.

I felt the first one the tip by Donald that was a HUGE momentum swing, we'd missed the open AJ Green and settled for a FG then we made them punt went right down the field and then the Pick. I think a big reason why they got their TD there was the huge letdown of the first 2 possessions for us.

I think Kyler is amazing and even with the 2 picks he moved the ball at will, and that's with the huge drop by D Hop and with the interior OL getting destroyed. But those 2 picks were huge

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Because the turnovers contributed to that. we had 2 INT's they scored 14 points off them. The first one they went 68 yards, the second one only 19. Sure the D could have played better and again part of the issue was the run defense forced our safeties to come up and then went over the top on us but the defense still played well enough to win the game if we didn't have the turnovers.

It was 5 straight a TD after a pick, a FG, a FG before the half, a TD to start the 2nd half, and a TD after a pick. After the 2nd TD of the 2nd half off the pick by the DE and the short field, the Rams had less than 80 yards of offense for the rest of the game, in about 25 minutes.

The defense wasn't great but those 2 turnovers, both great plays by the Rams, were a big part of why the defense gave up 30 points.

I felt the first one the tip by Donald that was a HUGE momentum swing, we'd missed the open AJ Green and settled for a FG then we made them punt went right down the field and then the Pick. I think a big reason why they got their TD there was the huge letdown of the first 2 possessions for us.

I think Kyler is amazing and even with the 2 picks he moved the ball at will, and that's with the huge drop by D Hop and with the interior OL getting destroyed. But those 2 picks were huge

It is so weird how so many people can watch the same game and see things differently. After the 1st pick, the still marched down the field 68 yards for the score. They weren't exactly in the red zone like the 2nd INT. The TD after half time they went 75 yards for the score. How many times did the Cards fail to get off of the field on 3rd down? How bad did Donald and Cupp abuse this team?

 

[Russ Smith]

It is so weird how so many people can watch the same game and see things differently. After the 1st pick, the still marched down the field 68 yards for the score. They weren't exactly in the red zone like the 2nd INT. The TD after half time they went 75 yards for the score. How many times did the Cards fail to get off of the field on 3rd down? How bad did Donald and Cupp abuse this team?

Well it wasn't 6 in a row it was 5 and it wasn't 4 TD's it was 3. 2 of the 3 TD's were after INTs and I said it was a 68 yard drive but again it was after the pick. IMO the first 2 drives ending the way they did demoralized the defense a bit that first TD drive was short passes and one 19 yard run by Michel. If we don't throw that pick and score a TD after taht drive we're still up 10-7 that was a huge swing emotionally for the team.

We got back into the game after the 2nd INT in large part because of the defense we held them under 100 yards for the last 25 minutes of the game. 19 plays about 80 yards one FG.

We moved the ball like crazy on offense but those 2 turnovers were the difference in the game. In theory it was 4 turnovers with the 2 stops on 4th down.

The defense certainly wasn't great, but if you replay the game without those 2 picks, we win.

 

[Russ Smith]

Looking back K9 is right Wesley's snaps went way up when Hop was out, he played about 74% of the snaps. What we did with Rondale was we also started using him as a RB a bit lining up him in the backfield sometimes with Conner. But some of that was because Edmonds got hurt on the first play of the SF game, the first game without Hopkins.

So if we get Edmonds back it's less likely we'll see Rondale as a RB much. The first time around far less 4 Wr offense without D Hop.

I would think Ertz will get a jump in targets but I've been saying that for awhile I suspect everyone else thinks that too and they're paying lots of attention to him which is why Conner has been so good in the passing game. Which is why I really want Edmonds back, Conner has been great but if Chase gets that much room because of Ertz, Chase will take the ball much further than conner does.

 

[kerouac9]

Looking back K9 is right Wesley's snaps went way up when Hop was out, he played about 74% of the snaps. What we did with Rondale was we also started using him as a RB a bit lining up him in the backfield sometimes with Conner. But some of that was because Edmonds got hurt on the first play of the SF game, the first game without Hopkins.

So if we get Edmonds back it's less likely we'll see Rondale as a RB much. The first time around far less 4 Wr offense without D Hop.

I would think Ertz will get a jump in targets but I've been saying that for awhile I suspect everyone else thinks that too and they're paying lots of attention to him which is why Conner has been so good in the passing game. Which is why I really want Edmonds back, Conner has been great but if Chase gets that much room because of Ertz, Chase will take the ball much further than conner does.

This is an insightful observation.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If they want to get the most out of him he needs more variation.

Kliff needs to make the defense think "Is Moore going to stay in the flat from this pre snap movement or is this going to turn into a wheel route?" rather than knowing every single time he's staying in the flat.

Part of me wonders if kliff is hiding him only to spring him loose on deeper routes in the playoffs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is an insightful observation.

Suckup

 

[Red on White]

Cardinals RedZone passing is a problem. Fix it Kliff.

Conner's effectiveness has perhaps papered over a weakness

 

[DVontel]

Conner's effectiveness has perhaps papered over a weakness

We were top 5 in redzone passing prior to Kyler making a dumb decision. Lets not be reactionary.