Cardinals and Kolb Trying to Save Face

[JAB]

Joe can probably speak more authoritatively about this, but that's standard NFL language. The payout is automatic or on an interest-bearing annuity. The issue is that the teams--all teams--can ask for part of the signing bonus back if they so desire and the player voids the deal before it's expired.

Warner would've had to pay the Cards back some of that bonus money. Happens pretty frequently. The Falcons went after (successfully, I think) Vick's bonus on his $100 million+ deal after he went to the clink, and I think that Oakland tried the same thing (unsuccessfuly, IIRC) with JaMarcus Russell.

I'm not sure how we are getting into this or if the new collective bargaining agreement has changed this but the player is not forced to return any part of a signing bonus if they retire with out their organization asking for it. A organization can seek through arbitration to get some of the money back. It isn't as cut and dry as they have to return an exact prorated amount. It takes arbitration and the request of an organization to start the process and the arbitrator decides on the amount that must be returned. Some teams have elected to retrieve signing bonuses some teams have not.

My only point was that the Cardinals have structured signing bonuses so that they did not have to pay the full amount up front. I'm not sure how I got my dumb butt stuck defending a statement I don't even agree with as plausible. All I'm saying is if Kolb felt the way the OP suggested and the contract was written in a manner conducive it was a possibility.

 

[Mitch]

I'm not sure how we are getting into this or if the new collective bargaining agreement has changed this but the player is not forced to return any part of a signing bonus if they retire with out their organization asking for it. A organization can seek through arbitration to get some of the money back. It isn't as cut and dry as they have to return an exact prorated amount. It takes arbitration and the request of an organization to start the process and the arbitrator decides on the amount that must be returned. Some teams have elected to retrieve signing bonuses some teams have not.

My only point was that Cardinals have structured signing bonuses so that they did not have to pay the full amount up front. I'm not sure how I got my dumb butt stuck defending a statement I don't even agree with as plausible. All I'm saying is if Kolb felt the way the OP suggested and the contract was written in a manner conducive it was a possibility.

I agree with you.

Case in point:

Let's say that on the first day of minicamp, Kolb feels lightheaded---and he still doesn't feel right---so he consults with the trainers and the team doctor and then he goes to see a specialist and the specialist advises him to consider the risks of playing football in light of the magnitude of his last two concussions.

Let's say Kolb and his wife decide as Kurt Warner and his did that the risk of playing isn't worth it anymore.

At that point what happens?

An injury settlement that hopefully is agreeable to both parties.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not sure how we are getting into this or if the new collective bargaining agreement has changed this but the player is not forced to return any part of a signing bonus if they retire with out their organization asking for it. A organization can seek through arbitration to get some of the money back. It isn't as cut and dry as they have to return an exact prorated amount. It takes arbitration and the request of an organization to start the process and the arbitrator decides on the amount that must be returned. Some teams have elected to retrieve signing bonuses some teams have not.

My only point was that the Cardinals have structured signing bonuses so that they did not have to pay the full amount up front. I'm not sure how I got my dumb butt stuck defending a statement I don't even agree with as plausible. All I'm saying is if Kolb felt the way the OP suggested and the contract was written in a manner conducive it was a possibility.

Do you have evidence of this? It may be correct, but that's not what Sportrac says (they're the source you note), and if that's the case there's no incentive for players to re-negotiate/re-structure their contracts (the idea being that they get the money for the season in April instead of spread out over 17 weeks from September through January).

 

[juza76]

I agree with you.

Case in point:

Let's say that on the first day of minicamp, Kolb feels lightheaded---and he still doesn't feel right---so he consults with the trainers and the team doctor and then he goes to see a specialist and the specialist advises him to consider the risks of playing football in light of the magnitude of his last two concussions.

Let's say Kolb and his wife decide as Kurt Warner and his did that the risk of playing isn't worth it anymore.

At that point what happens?

An injury settlement that hopefully is agreeable to both parties.

i didnt hear a specialist advise him about risks of playing football...when came out this news??

 

[JAB]

Do you have evidence of this? It may be correct, but that's not what Sportrac says (they're the source you note), and if that's the case there's no incentive for players to re-negotiate/re-structure their contracts (the idea being that they get the money for the season in April instead of spread out over 17 weeks from September through January).

I quoted them to contradict the statement he only had two bonuses in his contract instead of three and the amount of each bonus. I don't know if it was you and I don't care enough to go back and look but someone made the assumption I didn't understand that signing bonuses are spread out in cap dollars in equal amounts over the term of the contract and therefore I was confused.

You don't have to look any further back than Kurt Warner to know they paid him half of his signing bonus one season and was scheduled to pay him the other half of his signing bonus the next season. Darren urban wrote an article about it due to the fact some fans wanted to know if the organization was going to go after half his signing bonus. He stated in that article they didn't have to ask for it back or go through arbitration because they had only paid him half of it there wasn't any money to get back from him. If you would have looked him up on that site it simply, as it does with Kolb, would have shown the amount of his signing bonus, and how it broke down into cap numbers for each season.

I have stated in several posts I am not 100% certain Kolb has the same deal that I only thought he might. I specifically stated I would not say it as a fact. It is not something I can prove I simply thought I read about it at one time, and from Darren urban previous article I know it's something the Cardinals have done in the past.

It doesn't take a big leap of faith to see it as a possibility for all we know they may have the same deal worked out with Larry Fitzgerald or other players. Our owners, who I am very proud of for spending the money after building University of Phoenix Stadium, as they said they would are still not cash rich. It's not unreasonable to think they have used this in contracts on more than one occasion and I'm certain I have read that they have.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

i didnt hear a specialist advise him about risks of playing football...when came out this news??

It's a hypothetical!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I agree with you.

Case in point:

Let's say that on the first day of minicamp, Kolb feels lightheaded---and he still doesn't feel right---so he consults with the trainers and the team doctor and then he goes to see a specialist and the specialist advises him to consider the risks of playing football in light of the magnitude of his last two concussions.

Let's say Kolb and his wife decide as Kurt Warner and his did that the risk of playing isn't worth it anymore.

At that point what happens?

An injury settlement that hopefully is agreeable to both parties.

There's is no requirement for Kolb to return money he's received in bonus, if that's what you're suggesting. From his standpoint, there's nothing to negotiate. Perhaps, in your scenario, he then joins many others in a civil suit against the League regarding head injuries.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I quoted them to contradict the statement he only had two bonuses in his contract instead of three and the amount of each bonus. I don't know if it was you and I don't care enough to go back and look but someone made the assumption I didn't understand that signing bonuses are spread out in cap dollars in equal amounts over the term of the contract and therefore I was confused.

You don't have to look any further back than Kurt Warner to know they paid him half of his signing bonus one season and was scheduled to pay him the other half of his signing bonus the next season. Darren urban wrote an article about it due to the fact some fans wanted to know if the organization was going to go after half his signing bonus. He stated in that article they didn't have to ask for it back or go through arbitration because they had only paid him half of it there wasn't any money to get back from him. If you would have looked him up on that site it simply, as it does with Kolb, would have shown the amount of his signing bonus, and how it broke down into cap numbers for each season.

I have stated in several posts I am not 100% certain Kolb has the same deal that I only thought he might. I specifically stated I would not say it as a fact. It is not something I can prove I simply thought I read about it at one time, and from Darren urban previous article I know it's something the Cardinals have done in the past.

It doesn't take a big leap of faith to see it as a possibility for all we know they may have the same deal worked out with Larry Fitzgerald or other players. Our owners, who I am very proud of for spending the money after building University of Phoenix Stadium, as they said they would are still not cash rich. It's not unreasonable to think they have used this in contracts on more than one occasion and I'm certain I have read that they have.

You can be fairly certain that the bonus due to Warner in his second year was not called a "signing" bonus in the contract.

 

[juza76]

It's a hypothetical!

thank u..u are my social worker..from canada helping a foreigner with broken english

 

[kerouac9]

I quoted them to contradict the statement he only had two bonuses in his contract instead of three and the amount of each bonus. I don't know if it was you and I don't care enough to go back and look but someone made the assumption I didn't understand that signing bonuses are spread out in cap dollars in equal amounts over the term of the contract and therefore I was confused.

You don't have to look any further back than Kurt Warner to know they paid him half of his signing bonus one season and was scheduled to pay him the other half of his signing bonus the next season. Darren urban wrote an article about it due to the fact some fans wanted to know if the organization was going to go after half his signing bonus. He stated in that article they didn't have to ask for it back or go through arbitration because they had only paid him half of it there wasn't any money to get back from him. If you would have looked him up on that site it simply, as it does with Kolb, would have shown the amount of his signing bonus, and how it broke down into cap numbers for each season.

I have stated in several posts I am not 100% certain Kolb has the same deal that I only thought he might. I specifically stated I would not say it as a fact. It is not something I can prove I simply thought I read about it at one time, and from Darren urban previous article I know it's something the Cardinals have done in the past.

It doesn't take a big leap of faith to see it as a possibility for all we know they may have the same deal worked out with Larry Fitzgerald or other players. Our owners, who I am very proud of for spending the money after building University of Phoenix Stadium, as they said they would are still not cash rich. It's not unreasonable to think they have used this in contracts on more than one occasion and I'm certain I have read that they have.

Here you go:

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...29/20100129kurt-warner-retires-cardinals.html

The Cardinals signed Warner to a two-year, $23 million deal last year. Half of the $15 million signing bonus was paid last season, and an NFL source confirmed the contract included a clause that Warner would not receive the remaining $7.5 million if he retired after the 2009 season.

It was part of that new contract, not standard language that the team puts in to all deals. Considering that Kolb is at the beginning of his career and not the end, I'm betting that he got the signing bonus as a lump sum. Especially because that's the industry standard.

Another interesting tidbit from that link that might inspire Mitch:

On the plane ride to New Orleans for the divisional playoff game, Warner told coach Ken Whisenhunt that he likely was going to retire.

There's been a line of argument that it was Saints' bounties or the exceptionally physical nature of the Divisional Game that inspired Warner's retirement decision. That doesn't seem to have been the case in reality. Warner had already suffered a concussion against the Rams two months before.

Man, that 2009 season seems so long ago, now. Only three offensive starters and three defensive starters remain with the team from that year. In comparison, the Green Bay Packers started 7 starters from their 2009 playoff team in 2011 and 4 defensive starters.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

thank u..u are my social worker..from canada helping a foreigner with broken english

What's your first language?

(French, in my case)

 

[JAB]

You can be fairly certain that the bonus due to Warner in his second year was not called a "signing" bonus in the contract.

Kurt Warner's contract was a two-year $23 million contract with a $15 million signing bonus. The Arizona Cardinals negotiated with Warner to pay him $7.5 million of the bonus over the first year of his contract and $7.5 million over the second year of his contract it isn't any more complicated than that.

And no one knew including Darren urban about their arrangement until after he retired. You can't always trust what you read or hear from the talking heads. They said Kolb had around 20 million guaranteed and we learned this last off-season 7 mill of that was a roster bonus and it wasn't all guaranteed.

 

[juza76]

What's your first language?

(French, in my case)

i m italian from milan..but i knw canadian speaks well both languages..just in montreal maybe someone is not so good with english

 

[Mitch]

There's is no requirement for Kolb to return money he's received in bonus, if that's what you're suggesting. From his standpoint, there's nothing to negotiate. Perhaps, in your scenario, he then joins many others in a civil suit against the League regarding head injuries.

Sure, I understand that---but---he and his agent might be willing to arrive at an injury settlement that works to the advantage of both parties. That's all I am saying. And it seems like a moot point by now because Kolb appears to be gearing up to play---and the Cardinals seem to think he is worth the added $7M. We will see how it all shakes out.

My prediction?

Kolb---donning the red "you can't ever hit me" vest in camp---looks pretty sharp. The coaches gain confidence. The pre-season games won't matter because Kolb will only play a series or two here and there---maybe he'll play most of the first half of the second to last pre-season game---and he will likely struggle in that meaningless scenario---but the coaches will stick with him based on what they have seen in practice and based on how extraordinarily desperate the whole organization is to prove that the Kolb deal was a good one and not a fiasco---

But here's the problem---if the Cardinals ever needed to get off to a big start---this year is it because of having so many home games early and having the toughest part of their schedule later.

Kolb will be erratic, as usual, and the Cardinals will be an unthinkable 1-4 (although in the 1 win he looks good!) before the coaches say, "you know what? maybe we should have stuck with Skelton."

I hate to say this---but---this looks like the writing on the wall to me.

Put it this way---I would be totally SHOCKED if Kolb is still a Cardinal next year.

If he is and he manages to succeed this year then I will hoover serious crow---and you can pile it up on me.

I see no game to Kolb's game. He can throw it---but---he is painfully skittish---and now he has all the more reason to be.

Kolb talks the talk---but he doesn't walk the walk.

We were scammed.

There prove me wrong, Kolb! Hang in there take your licks and deliver strikes, if you have it in you.

 

[kerouac9]

Sure, I understand that---but---he and his agent might be willing to arrive at an injury settlement that works to the advantage of both parties. That's all I am saying. And it seems like a moot point by now because Kolb appears to be gearing up to play---and the Cardinals seem to think he is worth the added $7M. We will see how it all shakes out.

My prediction?

Kolb---donning the red "you can't ever hit me" vest in camp---looks pretty sharp. The coaches gain confidence. The pre-season games won't matter because Kolb will only play a series or two here and there---maybe he'll play most of the first half of the second to last pre-season game---and he will likely struggle in that meaningless scenario---but the coaches will stick with him based on what they have seen in practice and based on how extraordinarily desperate the whole organization is to prove that the Kolb deal was a good one and not a fiasco---

But here's the problem---if the Cardinals ever needed to get off to a big start---this year is it because of having so many home games early and having the toughest part of their schedule later.

Kolb will be erratic, as usual, and the Cardinals will be an unthinkable 1-4 (although in the 1 win he looks good!) before the coaches say, "you know what? maybe we should have stuck with Skelton."

I hate to say this---but---this looks like the writing on the wall to me.

Put it this way---I would be totally SHOCKED if Kolb is still a Cardinal next year.

If he is and he manages to succeed this year then I will hoover serious crow---and you can pile it up on me.

I see no game to Kolb's game. He can throw it---but---he is painfully skittish---and now he has all the more reason to be.

Kolb talks the talk---but he doesn't walk the walk.

We were scammed.

There prove me wrong, Kolb! Hang in there take your licks and deliver strikes, if you have it in you.

It was interesting listening to Doug & Wolf on Tuesday, talking about this very thing. They said that Skelton's problems--accuracy, footwork, timing, reading defenses, etc.--were all things that could be worked and improved upon during the offseason & training camp.

Still paraphrasing Wolfley here--The things that Kolb needs to work on, like staying strong in the pocket and not fleeing a phantom rush, have to be attuned during the season and in actual games.

If Wolfley is already souring on Kevin Kolb and his abilities on the radio, the battle's already over on Hardy Drive and we'll be watching Kolb get himself fired (or not--there's the chance he will prove to be the guy we were hoping for) over the early course of the season.

With 4 of the first six at home (that means 6 of the last 10 on the road, for those not scoring at home), the Cards have to get off to a hot start. The Cards go on a brutal mid-season run weeks 7 through 13--Cards could legitimately go 1-5 over that time. If we don't backlog some Ws early in the season...

 

[Mitch]

I wish Kolb and every Cardinal the best---

But I was not in favor of his signing because I was doing a manhunt for Cardinal Tough and Kolb did not fit the criteria.

Skelton, however, does.

I strongly believe that if your QB----the Captain steering the ship---is tough---the whole crew will follow.

This is the reason I believe that the team with Skelton at QB over the past two mostly dreadful seasons has gone 8-4.

The problem is in this current scenario is that Skelton has only has one real off-season with minicamps etc....while Kolb had had 5. And in that one off-season Skelton had he received ZERO reps with the first team. He was basically relegated as a project rookie. But then after staving off freshly acquired street free agent Rich Bartel for the starting gig late in year one he went in there and showed rare toughness---sure, not rare precision, but rare toughness, nonetheless.

I don't know if I have EVER seen a Cardinal QB scramble and rather than run out of bounds, lower his shoulder and lay a lick on a defender. That, and doing it with a smile on his face, to boot!

The added context is that the other QBs that played that year played about as scared as QBs can play. The disparity was so profound, you couldn't help but sit up and take notice.

The Cardinals are always so IMAGE conscious---I mean the FO could not STAND that Matt Leinart, their Golden Boy steal at #10 in the 2006 draft was a scaredy cat QB and check-down glutton.

Now the Kolb trade---everyone knew---it wasn't the trade necessarily that was so bad---it was the blind faith contract---which the Cardinals didn't even have to make because Kolb was under contract for $1.4M.

So here again---the DESPERATION kicks in. Kolb is retained, for what? A solid first game versus the Rams at home and one good half versus the Cowboys?

Otherwise he was running like a madman backwards.

Kolb was 1-6. He is what is he is. Sure the defense wasn't as good as later in the season, but as I contend, was it a mere coincidence the defense got tougher when the QB was tougher?

Like Bill Parcells always maintained, "When a player shows you who he is, believe him."

 

[Crazy Canuck]

i m italian from milan..but i knw canadian speaks well both languages..just in montreal maybe someone is not so good with english

I live in Montreal and there is a large trilingual Italian community here.

 

[Russ Smith]

It was interesting listening to Doug & Wolf on Tuesday, talking about this very thing. They said that Skelton's problems--accuracy, footwork, timing, reading defenses, etc.--were all things that could be worked and improved upon during the offseason & training camp.

Still paraphrasing Wolfley here--The things that Kolb needs to work on, like staying strong in the pocket and not fleeing a phantom rush, have to be attuned during the season and in actual games.

If Wolfley is already souring on Kevin Kolb and his abilities on the radio, the battle's already over on Hardy Drive and we'll be watching Kolb get himself fired (or not--there's the chance he will prove to be the guy we were hoping for) over the early course of the season.

With 4 of the first six at home (that means 6 of the last 10 on the road, for those not scoring at home), the Cards have to get off to a hot start. The Cards go on a brutal mid-season run weeks 7 through 13--Cards could legitimately go 1-5 over that time. If we don't backlog some Ws early in the season...

I'm confused are you saying if the optimist Wolfley is down on him that's a bad sign? Because usually whatever Wolfley says you criticize, so it's odd to see you cite him unless it's as I said.

 

[JAB]

Here you go:

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...29/20100129kurt-warner-retires-cardinals.html



It was part of that new contract, not standard language that the team puts in to all deals. Considering that Kolb is at the beginning of his career and not the end, I'm betting that he got the signing bonus as a lump sum. Especially because that's the industry standard..

That article was written January 2, 2010 after we all knew they had no idea they split the bonus at the time the contract was announced and no one was claiming it was anything other than a $15 million signing bonus. Plus note in that article, they still call it a $15 million signing bonus not a $7.5 million signing bonus with a $7.5 million roster bonus.

It's still all a $15 million signing bonus. All I have said is that it can be done it has been done and this proves it was done. I really don't care why they did it I'm only stating that it's possible to not pay a player all of their signing bonus up front.

If I was to make an argument that it was some other reason besides cash I would lean towards the fact he was what 37 years old and was scheduled to have hip surgery over worrying about him retiring. I don't care why or how only that it has and can be done.

 

[juza76]

I live in Montreal and there is a large trilingual Italian community here.

i tell u that cause i remember a model from montreal who came here and wasnt able to speak english ..just french..anyway italian are everywhere. how are the italian there...are good or not?or spaghetti mafia and mandolino

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I wish Kolb and every Cardinal the best---

But I was not in favor of his signing because I was doing a manhunt for Cardinal Tough and Kolb did not fit the criteria.

Skelton, however, does.

I strongly believe that if your QB----the Captain steering the ship---is tough---the whole crew will follow.

This is the reason I believe that the team with Skelton at QB over the past two mostly dreadful seasons has gone 8-4.

The problem is in this current scenario is that Skelton has only has one real off-season with minicamps etc....while Kolb had had 5. And in that one off-season Skelton had he received ZERO reps with the first team. He was basically relegated as a project rookie. But then after staving off freshly acquired street free agent Rich Bartel for the starting gig late in year one he went in there and showed rare toughness---sure, not rare precision, but rare toughness, nonetheless.

I don't know if I have EVER seen a Cardinal QB scramble and rather than run out of bounds, lower his shoulder and lay a lick on a defender. That, and doing it with a smile on his face, to boot!

The added context is that the other QBs that played that year played about as scared as QBs can play. The disparity was so profound, you couldn't help but sit up and take notice.


The Cardinals are always so IMAGE conscious---I mean the FO could not STAND that Matt Leinart, their Golden Boy steal at #10 in the 2006 draft was a scaredy cat QB and check-down glutton.

Now the Kolb trade---everyone knew---it wasn't the trade necessarily that was so bad---it was the blind faith contract---which the Cardinals didn't even have to make because Kolb was under contract for $1.4M.

So here again---the DESPERATION kicks in. Kolb is retained, for what? A solid first game versus the Rams at home and one good half versus the Cowboys?

Otherwise he was running like a madman backwards.

Kolb was 1-6. He is what is he is. Sure the defense wasn't as good as later in the season, but as I contend, was it a mere coincidence the defense got tougher when the QB was tougher?

Like Bill Parcells always maintained, "When a player shows you who he is, believe him."

The 'D' got tough through spending the first half on the field during Skelton's starts and saving his butt from the turnovers in the second.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm confused are you saying if the optimist Wolfley is down on him that's a bad sign? Because usually whatever Wolfley says you criticize, so it's odd to see you cite him unless it's as I said.

That is what I'm saying. Wolfley is THE mouthpiece for the organization and will bend over backward to frame a discussion as being good for team. When Wolfley comes on this board to criticize Karlos Dansby and is shouted down and run off the board, he is forced to temper his criticism of the player. Wolfley spends two years hyping Brandon Keith as a first-round pick based on talent alone. Wolfley talks up Kevin Kolb for three months following the draft.

I don't agree with most of what Wolfley says, because I believe that it's filtered by the team (who's paying a lot of his salary and the source of his professional life following football). I don't necessarily agree with Wolfley's analysis of Kolb, but when Wolfley starts criticizing Kolb in ways unqualified (which is what this sounded like), then my ears prick up.

Felt like a sea change when it was happening. Kolb may have squandered the faith of the Arizona Cardinals organization.

 

[Mitch]

The 'D' got tough through spending the first half on the field during Skelton's atarts and saving his buitt from the turnovers in the second.

I don't care---it's all relative---the reality is the Cardinals played their best with Skelton at QB---to the tune of 6-2, sweeping the division rivals in the process. And the reality is that Skelton, pressed into emergency service WAY outplayed Alex Smith in finally beating the 49ers. And the team that day proved Smith's theory about getting up on the Cardinals and watching them pack in their tents was rebuked and emphatically so.

 

[Fitz Rulz]

I have no faith in Kolb
Do I wish him luck> Yes I do for the sake of Cardinals

on another note, Eagles is shopping CB Asante Samuel. Can we trade Kolb back for Samuel & 2nd pick? I like one of the comments here "We were scammed"!

 

[Mitch]

I have no faith in Kolb
Do I wish him luck> Yes I do for the sake of Cardinals

on another note, Eagles is shopping CB Asante Samuel. Can we trade Kolb back for Samuel & 2nd pick? I like one of the comments here "We were scammed"!

Believe it or not, FR, Samuel at his age and lack of desire to hit, is not a fit in our system. Boo-Yah!