Cardinals: Off Center and Off Guard

Mitch

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It's unbelievable how badly the Cardinals under HC Bruce Arians, OC Harold Goodwin and OLC Larry Zierlein have botched up the Cardinals' offensive line...especially in a year where the line was supposed to block for budding superstar RB David Johnson and for their venerable, statuesque QB Carson Palmer.

The thinking among the brain trust was to flip-flop tackles Jared Veldheer and D.J. Humphries.

Hasn't worked.

Humphries has played all of 9 snaps due to a knee injury and Veldheer has struggled big-time and is currently ranked by PFF as the #64 tackle at a paltry grade of 37.7.

Evan Boehm was drafted as the COF in 2016...but, no, the brain trust decided to re-sign hard-working but physically limited C A.Q. Shipley to a 2 year deal, even despite the fact that he was going to need double hernia surgery.

Boehm was forced into playing RG last year for the final two games and was adequate, but one look at his frame and skill set and it was a stretch to think that he could be a regular starting RG in the NFL. Yet, the brain trust wrote Shipley's and Boehm's names in pen into their projected starting lineup.

Then, now that it has become clear that LG Mike Iupati has struggled to stay healthy and productive the past couple of years and is no longer playing at an All-Pro level, the thinking was to draft his heir apparent in 4th round pick 1st Team All-American, Dorian Johnson. The hope was to get a good year out of Iupati and check the progress of Johnson and 2016 6th round pick Cole Toner.

Iupati is now on the IR and had been replaced by recent signee Alex Boone, until Boone injured his triceps. Dorian Johnson had such a poor camp that he passed through waivers and was signed to the PS. Toner, who spent most of camp training to be a backup center (now that Boehm was at RG) was cut after being switched back to guard for the last two pre-season games.

Insurance UFA signee Tony Bergstrom, who had a solid camp, was dealt to Baltimore for a conditional 7th round pick.

This left the coaches having to start Will Holden, their rookie swing tackle at LG, where, of course, he struggled mightily.

In came old Swiss Army knife veteran Earl Watford...so Watford on three days of practice replaces Holden and starts versus the Eagles, and struggled.

Yet now that Alex Boone looks like he can return to LG, Watford has been switched over to RG to replace Boehm. Yesterday, when explaining the move, Harold Goodwin said that Boehm has been trying hard but "he's a center by trade" and that he was drafted to be a center. Doh.

Pretty much full circle, isn't it?

Making matters worse, the one possible brought hope for the future at guard, Dorian Johnson, was signed this week off the Cardinals' practice squad by the Houston Texans. Even with all this turmoil at guard, the Cardinals decided not to promote Johnson and keep him in the nest.

Meanwhile, BA&SK's first draft pick, G Jonathan Cooper, who could be in the 5th year of his rookie contract, is starting at LG for the Dallas Cowboys, who once made a Pro-Bowler out of Leonard Davis.

This is a comedy of errors on the Cardinals' part. Some will blame it on the GM. Some will blame it on the coaches. Some will blame it on misfortune. Take your pick.

But what's becoming very clear...whomever the GM, HC and OC are next year, once gain it looks like they are going to have to start from scratch to address the guard situation (unless they are willing to pay Iupati $10M)...all of this...after spending a 1st, two 4th rounders and a 6th round pick on guards over the past 5 years. the reality is: NONE of these 4 draft picks has been developed. Plus, Boehm now finds himself once again as a backup center behind Shipley and possibly behind Daniel Munyer and Humphries has yet to prove that he can be a reliable LT.

These are the kinds of things that set franchises back...and cause RBs and QBs to land repeatedly on their backs.
 
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Hoodhero

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The one PFF stat that blows my mind in this whole situation is that Veldheer & Wetzel have allowed more pressures than some 20 teams combined!!!!
 

cardpa

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Nice article Mitch, the situation is a complete clusterf**k. Makes you feel like there is a bunch of imbeciles managing the offensive line. To make matters worse is Arians will never admit they made a huge mistake and correct it, instead they will keep trotting this inexcusable line out every Sunday.
 

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Don't forget the release of "elite" Levi Brown for Bradley Sowell, " who had a good punch".

Or bringing in Lyle back at the end of training camp to be our starting center over AJ and whomever.

There is definitely something amiss in the handling of the OL under BASK.
 

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Worst Oline in Cards history by a mile. The decision making process has been far below amateur. All should be canned.
 
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Mitch

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Cooper is only stating in Dallas due to injury, I believe.

It just felt poetic to say that he's the starting LG for the Cowboys!:pullhair:

Cooper is no great shakes. But ironically he's still the best guard that BA&SK has drafted.:mulli:
 

WindCardinal

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I'm ok with moving Boehm back to center next year and cutting Shipley. LG RG and RT are glaring needs though. I love Quentin Nelson out of Norte dame
 

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Wow, I can't believe they are benching boehm for watford. I guess it is because they think watford can get more push in the run game, but he doesn't get much.

I know Boehm has been struggling badly the last few games, but he needs experience. Watford is barely superior, and is what he is, a below average backup.

I guess they have decided they need to get boehm's confidence back and move him back to center.

I am predicting this whole AP thing is going to fail spectacularly, I predict four 3 and out possessions to start the game, then AP will mostly be forgotten about for the rest of the year, other than when he is complaining about his touches.

I cannot believe AP thinks he can play another 4 or 5 years - when no running back has ever played that long - and he does not even realize he has already lost it.
 

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Needs for 2018:

1. QB
2. RT
3. LG
4. RG
5. CB2
6. WR
7. TE
8. LS
9. K

Ugh.

I would rank our needs as such - assuming fitz retires

1. QB
2. WR X 2
3. RT
4. DE
5. LG
6. TE
7. CB2
8. RG
9. RB
10. LT - Backup
11. G - Backup
12. DT
13. Return man
14. CB - Backup

With so many needs I cannot understand why anybody is fine throwing away picks on desperation moves like AP. I know 6th rounders aren't worth alot - but they can turn into decent backup guards, Running Backs or return men - all of which this team desperately needs.

The worst part is historically you need 1st or 2nd rounders to get a quality QB, WR, RT, LT, CB2, or DE. So we need 7 of those picks and we have 2, and no extra picks in any upcoming years. This team is probably facing a long rebuild.
 
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Capital Card

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I would rank our needs as such - assuming fitz retires



With so many needs I cannot understand why anybody is fine throwing away picks on desperation moves like AP. I know 6th rounders aren't worth alot - but they can turn into decent backup guards, Running Backs or return men - all of which this team desperately needs.

The way the draft has trended the last few years, you can move back a couple of spots in the third and pick up a 5th or 6th round prospect. I don't see a conditional 6th as a big deal when it provides some semblance of hope for the current season.

Hope for a championship? Admittedly, no. Hope for a watchable product? Perhaps.
 

football karma

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when position groups are this bad, its usually a combo of factors, rather than one thing--

first the bad luck:

nobody saw Veldheers play slipping like it has. I dont buy the side switch -- as the factor. The reality is that he was shaky last year in 2015 (especially as the year wore on) and the start of 2016 prior to injury was worse still. Arians noted that Veldheer lost too much weight in 2015 to be effective and showing up bigger in 2016 should help. It really didnt. No idea whats going on there, but the trajectory is shocking -- to go from Pro Bowl worthy in 2014 to this -- all in the prime of an O-lineman's career.

DJ Humphries: a concussion to finish off last year, got a knee rolled up 5 mins into the season opener. I wont claim Humphries is the answer to it all, but there is a track record of tackles now taking a couple years of game action to settle in and be really good ( Lane Johnson was terrible his first two years, as an example. ) He needs to play to get up that learning curve.

bad talent evaluation:

between Watford, Boehm, Toner, Holden, Dorian Johnson -- as well as the undrafted guys: the odds say should should have found a productive starter in that group. Maybe not an all pro, but a guy who you can count on to do his job consistenly.
 

WisconsinCard

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[QUOTE="Mitch, post: 3579307, member: 2291

Evan Boehm was drafted as the COF in 2016...but, no, the brain trust decided to re-sign hard-working but physically limited C A.Q. Shipley to a 2 year deal, even despite the fact that he was going to need double hernia surgery.

Boehm was forced into playing RG last year for the final two games and was adequate, but one look at his frame and skill set and it was a stretch to think that he could be a regular starting RG in the NFL. Yet, the brain trust wrote Shipley's and Boehm's names in pen into their projected starting lineup.[/QUOTE]

It wasn't long ago you were saying the Boehm was looking solid at RG. I agree with most of your post, but it seems that Boehm "fooled" more then just the coaches.
 

Dan H

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nobody saw Veldheers play slipping like it has. I dont buy the side switch -- as the factor. The reality is that he was shaky last year in 2015 (especially as the year wore on) and the start of 2016 prior to injury was worse still. Arians noted that Veldheer lost too much weight in 2015 to be effective and showing up bigger in 2016 should help. It really didnt. No idea whats going on there, but the trajectory is shocking -- to go from Pro Bowl worthy in 2014 to this -- all in the prime of an O-lineman's career.

No more roids?

Just a thought. He looks noticeably smaller than he used to.
 
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Mitch

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[QUOTE="Mitch, post: 3579307, member: 2291

Evan Boehm was drafted as the COF in 2016...but, no, the brain trust decided to re-sign hard-working but physically limited C A.Q. Shipley to a 2 year deal, even despite the fact that he was going to need double hernia surgery.

Boehm was forced into playing RG last year for the final two games and was adequate, but one look at his frame and skill set and it was a stretch to think that he could be a regular starting RG in the NFL. Yet, the brain trust wrote Shipley's and Boehm's names in pen into their projected starting lineup.

It wasn't long ago you were saying the Boehm was looking solid at RG. I agree with most of your post, but it seems that Boehm "fooled" more then just the coaches.[/QUOTE]

He did have the best OL grade week one. But, his play has declined steadily since. Boehm would not have been my choice to start at RG going into this season. Was he yours? I was surprised the Cardinals thought of him as such. I thought that with David Johnson as RB, the Cardinals would even make a run at Kevin Zeitler, the best G in the draft. In my off-season wish FA wish lists I was also hoping the Cardinals would sign Larry Watford, T.J. Lang, Ronald Leary or Mike Harris.

To hear Goodwin revert back to calling Boehm a center was just what I and many others on this board questioned all along. So, yeah, if you want to call me a hypocrite, go ahead.
 

AsUpRoDiGy

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Wasn't Keim an o- lineman himself? You think building the line would be a top priority... which it was the first year or two, but now it's just in shambles. Amazes me how the Patriots can put in a myriad of late draft picks/udfa's and they can block all day. Clearly coaching plays a big part in the lines success, and I'm guessing the cards are underperforming in that aspect as well.
 

b8rtm8nn

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Head scratching moves, both by Keim and the coaches though...

last year, we finish with a roster of effectively:


LT - Veldheer
LG - Iupati (Wetzel)
C - Shipley - Boehm
RG - Watford (*Mathis)
RT - Humphries (John)

Toner the backup, with the others that actually had to play

Not bad on paper, Watford was much worse than expected, Veldheer and Iupati were having injury/performance issues; but you could think that adding a RG (draft/vet), letting Boehm take the C role with competition, maybe some insurance for the left side - and we would be solid again.

Instead we re-sign Shipley and roll with


LT - Humphries (Wetzel)
LG - Iupati (Wetzel)
C - Shipley (Munyer)
RG - Boehm (Holden)
RT - Veldheer (John)

Which means the right side is completely unproven with TWO players in positions they have never played, with an average C and an injury prone left side - and little behind them in terms of backups - we know what Wetzel/ John offer, Holden is a rookie. We sign Boone (smart), but lose John (stupid), because a G replaces a T in our world. Yet we still have 3 Centers, one playing RG not very well (backup quality).

This is a Keim mistake, which is part of his MO - wishful thinking.

The other mistake is that I don't know where blame falls - why would you design the right side like this during the off-season without insurance in-place?

Even with injuries, we should be looking at

Veldheer - Wetzel (Boone) - Boehm - vet RG - John (Humphries)

And then you say we are taking the injuries in stride. We just look completely unprepared for NFL reality on the OL this year. Is this Keim or a combination of the coaches wishful thinking and Keim believing them? I can't believe this is what the coaches thought was a good idea over the offseason, any coach would want better starters and better depth.
 
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Mitch

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Head scratching moves, both by Keim and the coaches though...

last year, we finish with a roster of effectively:


LT - Veldheer
LG - Iupati (Wetzel)
C - Shipley - Boehm
RG - Watford (*Mathis)
RT - Humphries (John)

Toner the backup, with the others that actually had to play

Not bad on paper, Watford was much worse than expected, Veldheer and Iupati were having injury/performance issues; but you could think that adding a RG (draft/vet), letting Boehm take the C role with competition, maybe some insurance for the left side - and we would be solid again.

Instead we re-sign Shipley and roll with


LT - Humphries (Wetzel)
LG - Iupati (Wetzel)
C - Shipley (Munyer)
RG - Boehm (Holden)
RT - Veldheer (John)

Which means the right side is completely unproven with TWO players in positions they have never played, with an average C and an injury prone left side - and little behind them in terms of backups - we know what Wetzel/ John offer, Holden is a rookie. We sign Boone (smart), but lose John (stupid), because a G replaces a T in our world. Yet we still have 3 Centers, one playing RG not very well (backup quality).

This is a Keim mistake, which is part of his MO - wishful thinking.

The other mistake is that I don't know where blame falls - why would you design the right side like this during the off-season without insurance in-place?

Even with injuries, we should be looking at

Veldheer - Wetzel (Boone) - Boehm - vet RG - John (Humphries)

And then you say we are taking the injuries in stride. We just look completely unprepared for NFL reality on the OL this year. Is this Keim or a combination of the coaches wishful thinking and Keim believing them? I can't believe this is what the coaches thought was a good idea over the offseason, any coach would want better starters and better depth.

The only question I have is whether BA and HC told SK they felt they were set on the OL, other than to draft a G and T as developmental depth guys. BA has always been explicit about what he wants---and it would seem pretty obvious that, for example, BA wanted C A.Q. Shipley back, whereas Keim had already thought ahead and drafted Evan Boehm to be the starting center on 2017.

My hunch is that BA and HG told SK that they were good with Hump, Iupati, Shipley, Boehm and Veldheer...with swing backups T/G Wetzel and C/G Toner.
 

WisconsinCard

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It wasn't long ago you were saying the Boehm was looking solid at RG. I agree with most of your post, but it seems that Boehm "fooled" more then just the coaches.

He did have the best OL grade week one. But, his play has declined steadily since. Boehm would not have been my choice to start at RG going into this season. Was he yours? I was surprised the Cardinals thought of him as such. I thought that with David Johnson as RB, the Cardinals would even make a run at Kevin Zeitler, the best G in the draft. In my off-season wish FA wish lists I was also hoping the Cardinals would sign Larry Watford, T.J. Lang, Ronald Leary or Mike Harris.

To hear Goodwin revert back to calling Boehm a center was just what I and many others on this board questioned all along. So, yeah, if you want to call me a hypocrite, go ahead.[/QUOTE]

I agree, just pointing out how he was doing well and now has seemed to regress. I did think he was the best choice after Dorian was cut, was hoping that he would take the position and move Boehm to center. He fooled me too, in fact I was thinking he was about the best o-lineman we have. Now I hope that isn't true.

Not calling you a hypocrite, I'm just saying he fooled us all including the coaches it seems. And now hindsight is easy to see we were all wrong. Just seemed you were calling out the coaches for being wrong when indeed we all were.
 
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