Unfortunately, I think you may be correct.
Cardinals: Off Center and Off Guard
- Thread starter Mitch
- Start date
Unfortunately, I think you may be correct.
You win games in the trenches in the NFL a great offensive line that can pass block or bust open holes can do wonders for an offense and if you can get pressure with just your D-Line your golden
We have neither. I want a stud QB or a stud DL lineman in this draft the college has made drafting offensive lineman a total crap shoot
We have neither. I want a stud QB or a stud DL lineman in this draft the college has made drafting offensive lineman a total crap shoot
If Palmer and Fitz retire, the Cardinals will have a lot of cap space to sign free agents. Some of those positions are probably more conducive to being filled with free agents than draftees anyway.
...dave
I think you are right with your assumption, Keim allways drafted and brought in players to fortyfy the O-line, heck he drafted 2 in the #1 brought in a #1 rounder and #2 rounder that played at pro bowl level and brought in #3-7 rounder to be backups or starters. Dorian is unbelievable, I think he will play on the Texans O, he was one of the Pro readiest O-line players, he had #1 round grades before his health problem surfaced, but health is not his problem, he does fine at that level. So for me that makes 3 #1 rounders that couldn't get teached a damn on this team, Cooper had a great game against Greenbay had the highest G grading and was a top 5 player for the Cowboys ... let that sink in, our #1 rounder plays for the Cowboys and plays better than any O-line player that we have now. That should tell you about everything that goes wrong with our team.
If Dorian somehow starts this season for the Texans and isn't worse than our O-line players, than you have to ask for BA's and his coordinators head. Because the cutting is not about Keim, thats on the coaches. And teaching is too on the coaches not on Keim.
Yes Keim may have his faults and I think he buys to much from what BA says to him, way to much. His eye test should tell him that ST was a mess and is still a mess, that Butler never should have played this long for us, or that it can't be that you bring in good kickers and they get worse, that our kickers and punters allways seem to kick against at least 2 guys that go into theire leg.
Keim should have long ago, bring up that BA has to fire coaches as well, because that is, what a Coach has to do, not only cutting players, but cutting coaches that don't perform too. Or let that do the GM but not, wanting all say over the coaches but don't held them accountable.
This season will go down as a changing moment in our franchise, are we top to bottom, willing enough to do all what it takes to win it all, or are we okay with some poopy seasons to hope for better times.
And frankly, I can't see BA being the guy to win a SB for us, his best chance to get there, was in 2015 and he didn't prepare our players well, and gave them not what they needed to succseed. Success is something you have because you do something no one does, or do something what everyone does on a higher level. But if your team doesn't performe on any level, your ST is a liability in every game, you will get stopped short, every time. The SB was lost because of less ... (bad decisions by referees).
OP
OP
Mitch
Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
And does everyone remember back when so many of us were questioning Boehm as the starter at RG, when BA was asked if Dorian Johnson could compete for the starting job, BA said no way. The RG position was never even a competition. This is inexcusable, especially having to hear from BA and HG what we knew all along that Boehm is a natural center.
The thing about offensive line play, is that they are links in a chain...if one breaks they can all break.
So, by re-signing Shipley and keeping the COF at RG, the Cardinals were basically weakening themselves at two positions...all because BA and HG like Shipley.
OP
OP
Mitch
Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
I agree, just pointing out how he was doing well and now has seemed to regress. I did think he was the best choice after Dorian was cut, was hoping that he would take the position and move Boehm to center. He fooled me too, in fact I was thinking he was about the best o-lineman we have. Now I hope that isn't true.
Not calling you a hypocrite, I'm just saying he fooled us all including the coaches it seems. And now hindsight is easy to see we were all wrong. Just seemed you were calling out the coaches for being wrong when indeed we all were.[/QUOTE]
But, what I am saying is that so many of us were not fooled into thinking Boehm was the answer at RG. How many of us thought it was a good idea to have him start at RG this year? Not too many of us, I can tell you that. We were not fooled by Boehm. The coaches, yes, and that's why we freaking stink.
Harry
ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
I’m going to start out by admitting I have a predisposition toward mean lineman. I guess that harkens back to my old days watching the great line in STL. Dobler & company were as mean as they came. No one wanted to play them. Now D-lines like Dallas & LA intimidate the Cards’ line. Humphries is soft he was soft in college & he’ll be soft in AZ. I don’t believe in ragging a player for not playing hurt. Pain tolerance is not just about toughness. It’s a mindset. However on the field he doesn’t play mean. He’s too cerebral for my taste.
One thing the Cards’ linemen have in common is bad footwork. It’s true some of this is coaching, but much of it is agility.
Veldheer, Humphries and Watford have bad footwork. I heard the Cards went gaga over Humphries’ Pro Day. So they didn’t anticipate footwork would be a problem. If they’d dug a little deeper they’d have found Humphries doesn’t love the game and I personally don’t believe he has applied himself to fix the problem.
Veldheer once had okay footwork but injuries and natural wear & tear have left him unable to handle speed rushers.
Watford was released for poor footwork and a lack of strength. His re-signing was the “Any port in a storm theory.”
Iupati was done by the second half of last year; one too many injuries.
Shipley looks worse because he’s had weak guards on either side. He makes good blocking adjustment calls and anchors decently. Boehm, as I’ve mentioned in recent posts never belonged at Guard. He lacks the agility. At Center he’s a brawler. He’ll be a decent backup, but I’m not sure he becomes a starter. I don’t think Shipley is a great Center, but he’d be okay on a real line. I think they were concerned about a Boehm making the blocking calls.
Boone is a competent pass blocker and coupled with Shipley they could help prevent some of the middle line penetration. I think eventually Wetzel starts at RG.
With Iupati gone there is no longer a linemen that can pull effectively or drive block. Seen a sweep lately? They can barely run a screen.
I agree with Mitch. This O-line will need to be totally rebuilt. I hope they do it with mean linemen not a bunch of Pillsbury Doughboys.
One thing the Cards’ linemen have in common is bad footwork. It’s true some of this is coaching, but much of it is agility.
Veldheer, Humphries and Watford have bad footwork. I heard the Cards went gaga over Humphries’ Pro Day. So they didn’t anticipate footwork would be a problem. If they’d dug a little deeper they’d have found Humphries doesn’t love the game and I personally don’t believe he has applied himself to fix the problem.
Veldheer once had okay footwork but injuries and natural wear & tear have left him unable to handle speed rushers.
Watford was released for poor footwork and a lack of strength. His re-signing was the “Any port in a storm theory.”
Iupati was done by the second half of last year; one too many injuries.
Shipley looks worse because he’s had weak guards on either side. He makes good blocking adjustment calls and anchors decently. Boehm, as I’ve mentioned in recent posts never belonged at Guard. He lacks the agility. At Center he’s a brawler. He’ll be a decent backup, but I’m not sure he becomes a starter. I don’t think Shipley is a great Center, but he’d be okay on a real line. I think they were concerned about a Boehm making the blocking calls.
Boone is a competent pass blocker and coupled with Shipley they could help prevent some of the middle line penetration. I think eventually Wetzel starts at RG.
With Iupati gone there is no longer a linemen that can pull effectively or drive block. Seen a sweep lately? They can barely run a screen.
I agree with Mitch. This O-line will need to be totally rebuilt. I hope they do it with mean linemen not a bunch of Pillsbury Doughboys.
I played O-line some years in highschool, and yes European Highschool football may not be anything near good, but what I learned in that time, that even if your opponent is 7 inch taller and stronger and maybe even faster, if you are feroucious, determined and you are a guy that imposes his will on others, you can stop that guy to be dominant over you. You set your stance and keep your center balanced and you dig in technique and you can keep him in check.
Said that, I do understand where your thought comes from, because having a mean streak most of the time helps you to keep opponents in check or weakening them mentally. That is what happend CC often, when you didn't see him all day, there was a DT/NT that keept him "down", and we will see that happen in Jacksonville too.
So yes a mean streak helps you, but there are O-line man out there that don't need that to be dominant, that have an attitude that are real fighters or are highly self disciplined and OLB respect them more than they should. Good example, why can a QB/RB make a O-line better, because the defense respects him more and plays safer or not as reckless as they should. Yes Brady will make you pay if you can't touch him, but gosh, he will make you pay if you don't try it, so there shouldn't be that much of a respect in the first place, but there we are and Brady is the "GOAT" because not only players but coaches had respect, often too much.
Richie Incognito, is a good example of that, he never was a great O-line player, he was that mean guy that you wanted to kill, but at the same time, the players feared him.
Suh, does similar things, Burfict is crazy and mean and many aren't playing him up to that level they could.
So yeah you probably need some guys that are mean, some that are willing to be reckless and some that are celebrall (mainly the center) but impose there will are dominant personalitys.
If you watch our O-line, Valdeheer played best, when he looked like hulk, opponents saw him and thought, gosh ...
I'm not in the facility and never saw his eyes when he plays but maybe some are right, the light or fire for the sport is out and that is normally the end.
For Shipley, I think he is only the 2nd best C on the Cards, Bohem is better, but he doesn't get the chance. Bohem was better last year in preseason and that by a mile ... but not with BA, Bohem had to sit and Shipley to play and now, maybe Bohem is damaged good, that will not be great again. Hopefully not, but when watching Cooper in his game against the Greenbay Packers, I for sure thought to see a O-lineman that is head and sholders better than any player on our O-line this year. So how can it be that the cowboys invest time to get his confidence up again and we can't?
But yes, I liked the trade and so I can't argue about that point, Keim did get one of the best OLB in the league, you can't argue about that ever. That even one of the best, can't bring you wins when the DC is ... meh... gosh ... that is something different to talk about. Or maybe is only one point on the coaching that is ... "meh" and a problem.
Oh and an interesting thing that I noticed by rewatching the games, maybe someone other should watch for it too, I checked the man coverage plays of our D and it sure seems that they hope that the Dline can exactly do what they asked CC to do. That sounds bogus to me, because that would mean they did not react to the change of the D-line at all. okay maybe expect for to play more zone.
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WisconsinCard
Herfin BIg Time
But, what I am saying is that so many of us were not fooled into thinking Boehm was the answer at RG. How many of us thought it was a good idea to have him start at RG this year? Not too many of us, I can tell you that. We were not fooled by Boehm. The coaches, yes, and that's why we freaking stink.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure you were singing his praises in preseason. Now you say you weren't fooled, just seems like hindsight to me. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. Go back and look at your thread titled "positives".
pmacLean
Veteran
Just some thoughts.
The O-Line is easily an insane disaster.
The D-Line plays against that O-Line in practice. The D-Line should have annihilated that O-Line in
practice, EVERY SINGLE PLAY, and made it eminently clear to the brain-trust that extreme measures were needed on the O.
I am guessing mgmt just saw a good spirited battle between O and D, fine fellows all, which would indicate our D-Line is pretty, Gawd-awful pathetic also. Sunday will be interesting.
The O-Line is easily an insane disaster.
The D-Line plays against that O-Line in practice. The D-Line should have annihilated that O-Line in
practice, EVERY SINGLE PLAY, and made it eminently clear to the brain-trust that extreme measures were needed on the O.
I am guessing mgmt just saw a good spirited battle between O and D, fine fellows all, which would indicate our D-Line is pretty, Gawd-awful pathetic also. Sunday will be interesting.
The problem is the coaches are not teachers or good evaluators of talent. I suspect the Oline coaches try to teach what they know which is how they played in their days and that is all they know about playing on the offensive line which is not enough to be a solid coach. They look for players that emulate how they played and have no idea how to use the skills that players bring with them if they are different from how they played. They have never taken to learning more or watching and learning from other coaches. They live in their own little coaching world never taking into consideration that they can always learn more and become better coaches. In other words our coaches have reached their ceiling and it's a really low ceiling.
Cardsmasochist
Full Throttle!!
az jam
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IMO OC/OL coach Goodwin is a joke. He has been in charge of the OL for the past 5 years. Cards need to do a complete house cleaning of their coaching staff in the off season starting with Goodwin, Bettcher and Amos Jones. Arians won't fire them as he doesn't hold his coaches accountable. Keim needs to take the lead on this for sure. Additionally, its time for BA to retire.
Snakester
Draft Man
I agree that Goodwin, Amos Jones and Betcher can go. Keim needs to fire them whether Arians likes it or not. I would keep Arians though. Lets see the o-line finishes the season before wanting to get rid of everyone. I figured it would take Veldheer half the season to get good on the right side and he is getting better each week. Hopefully Humphries stays healthy and has a good year.
We all knew Boehm should have started at center. That ones on Keim for botching. He should have drafted or signed a right guard but didn't. Its clear we will need two guards next year so hopefully Keim drafts one high and signs one. I think we will be fine at tackle and moving Boehm to center will take care of the line.
gimpy
ASFN Lifer
I read about all this bad coaching, but as I recall (I think), that was originally a strong point with this regime when they were first hired?
GuernseyCard
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I read about all this bad coaching, but as I recall (I think), that was originally a strong point with this regime when they were first hired?
How soon some forget....
