Cardinals Ownership blamed for QB Mess

Krangodnzr

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I call BS on this. The ownership and FO recognied Q's value to this team immediately, and gave him a contract extension VERY quickly. It was not the FO or Ownership that drove Q out of here, but Whiz's demands that he wait his turn to get FItz money. Anybody who spoke out against Whiz's preachings on this matter were overlooked until the last minute, and by that time, the feelings were so bad between these players and the organization, that offering equal money to what others offered to them was fruitless by our FO. THis includes Dansby and Rolle, (though Rolle was of no real consequence). Remember, Whiz was not that big a Warner fan either, because he started Leinart ahead of him for two different seasons before giving in to Warner.

It is true that Whiz did not initially like either Leinart or Warner. He only settled in on Wrner when it became clear that it gave him the best opportunity to win between the two. Warner produced records of 9-7 with three playoff wins and a SB loss in '08 He produced a 10-7 record with one playoff win in and a loss to NO in '09. Warner saw that Whiz had no intent to keep either Gandy or Wells in '10, and realizing that he would have a poorer O-line than last year, AND a weaker Defense than last year, opted for retirement, a very prudent move by him.

Both Rolle and Dansby turned down the same money that they signed for in NY and Miami, when our FO offered it to them. THis waiting for the payday thing has been a persistent thing with Whiz since his arrival, just as has the paying dues thing been for any youngsters who hoped to, (or even deserved to), break into the starting lineup. It seems to be a personal rule, and not one dictated by the FO or by ownership.

I too, feel that this article is an attempt to take blame somewhat away from Whiz, but Whiz has far more to answer for than all other sources put together when this problem is truly analyzed. Had Whiz treated these players with the same loyalty he demanded of them, they might have stayed to play for us when offered the big money, instead of opting out. I suspect that they tired quickly of his public criticisms,and his attempts to chastise them publicly.

I call BS on nearly everything you say here.

1) Placing the blame on getting rid of Q on Whisenhunt? Are you serious? Whisenhunt IMO (and an opinion just as valid as yours and probably more likely) was the messenger for the organization. Or he was stuck in the difficult position that the organization NEVER planned on resigning Q and he was the one who was forced to deal with a difficult situation that management put him in when Q starting bitching about his long contract.

Have the Cardinals had a period as good as they have had over the passed three years BEFORE Whis came here? Has ownership/the front office ever been good? Why assume that the FO is not to fault here when the historical precedence is that they are terrible, mismanage player issues, and are cheap?

2) We offered LESS that Miami and New York (though I find it curious that you even mention Rolle when Rhodes has been better). Dansby didn't want to sign here. More money and in Miami? I'd take that trade in a heartbeat if I were a young athlete. It's just a more enticing destination for an athlete to live.

3) Waiting for a payday has been a consistent thing under Whis? It's a consistent thing with the Cardinals over their EXISTENCE. Other than that sliver of time where we resigned the Ray Thompson's of the world early, the Cardinals are usually NOT proactive about locking up talent. It's ridiculous you would blame this on Whis when 1) he doesn't negotiate with players 2) this team was like this LONG before Whis came here.

4) It is frustrating that Whisenhunt doesn't play young players, but I think you're assuming they would be better than the veterans without any evidence of the fact. He works rookies in over the course of the season and forces players to earn their time. I don't personally have a problem with this even though I'd like to see guys play for my own viewing pleasure. Lastly, you want the FO or ownership to decide when guys play or have any input in the matter? Whis SHOULD have 100% call on this.

Overall, I've found (and this is a general observation not a dig at you) myself viewing this board less and less with all the hysterical, uninformed Whis bashing. Has this organization (other than the Coryell years) EVER been a winner without Whisenhunt? No it has not, so I'll give the guy a mulligan for his mistakes (which are magnified by the retirement of Warner) and give him a shot to fix the mess.

I hope that some people are made accountable for this and NOT just on the coaching staff. I think it's time to rebuild the front office, fire Rod Graves, fire Steve Keim and restock the front office.
 

Bobcat

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This is how it all starts/ends. Bulger is just as big of a long shot as DA was, so I don't see what his trip is. I smell drama brewing, rumors cooking, and it sucks, just like this season, it sucks. Whiz needs to piss off the owners like he needs a hole in the head. But maybe he is setting the Bidwill's up for throwing big cash at a QB in the draft.

Not really He was tutored by Marx and Kurt, more in the mold of Kurt than DA.

Hey Guy's if the Bidwill's really created this QB problem and we find that this is to be true. Then I will become one of the biggest pains in the ASS to that family when it comes to trying to get any more buildings permitted on that Site after the way the handles the ADA regulations on the Stadium. Just don't get me started.

:mad:
 

conraddobler

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Whiz looks like an idiot on this one IMO.

Bulger?

Yeah, well that'd be better than DA until he was killed behind our O line about two games into the year.

Idiotic.

Good for management, it's their money, if someone wants to light it on fire they should say no.
 

Derm

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Not really He was tutored by Marx and Kurt, more in the mold of Kurt than DA.

Hey Guy's if the Bidwill's really created this QB problem and we find that this is to be true. Then I will become one of the biggest pains in the ASS to that family when it comes to trying to get any more buildings permitted on that Site after the way the handles the ADA regulations on the Stadium. Just don't get me started.

:mad:

So you blame the Bidwill family for door handles in the stadium? That makes sense.
 

THESMEL

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clue

the clue is in 2 places,
water over the bridge or
the burnt bridges.

I don't think Bidwills keep Beanie on the bench, or tell whiz to pass like his hair is on fire,

nor start 2 FA WR's and a FA QB, I just don't think Bdwills are to blame for cutting Matt,

shaking Deuce by the throat, low balling Lyle because the can.

I don't think the Bidwills or graves recruited a series of ex steeler FA busts, although thy approved and cut the checks.

How about Grimms son as a coach? the other players son on the staff.
Chris Miller as QB coach, Mike Miller as PGC

Are the Bidwills smart enough to think up a Pass Game Coordinator along with a Run Game Coodinator to screw up their own team and hold no one accountable.

Nope this has Ken Whisenhunt all over everything like fly on ****. Can He save it, He better start soon, cleaning house and dropping names.

He needs a DC, OC, OLB's and a QB to start. preferably Matt Leinart.



I'm searching for a clue but it must be very well hidden

I guess I got him started... :D
 

Krangodnzr

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Whiz looks like an idiot on this one IMO.

Bulger?

Yeah, well that'd be better than DA until he was killed behind our O line about two games into the year.

Idiotic.

Good for management, it's their money, if someone wants to light it on fire they should say no.

As much as this pains for me to admit and shows how dire our situation was, Marc Bulger was far and away the best QB out there this year. Whisenhunt knew it, but the Bidwills would rather make tons of money than take care of the football team.
 

Evil Ash

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As much as this pains for me to admit and shows how dire our situation was, Marc Bulger was far and away the best QB out there this year. Whisenhunt knew it, but the Bidwills would rather make tons of money than take care of the football team.

The Bidwills deserve their share of the blame for a lot of things but I can't really blame them on this one. The QB mess is on Whiz and Whiz alone.

The FO didn't want to pay for 3 vet QBs for the season especially after trading a defensive starter to draft another one - remember Bulger was cut after the draft. They already had the idea that Leinart was the starter and DA or whomever the vet was going to be was going to be the backup. Whiz for whatever reason (thinking Leinart wasn't good enough, personality conflicts, etc) didn't think of Leinart that highly.

If Whiz really wanted Bulger he could have simply cut or trade Leinart when Bulger became available. There was nothing stopping him from doing so, he just decided to do the worst possible thing and cut him at the end of the preseason instead.

For all the good he has done the franchise, he gets a mulligan from me but the blame on Whiz is rightly deserved in this case. Lets just hope Skelton works out so we don't have to go through this crap again
 

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Of course the ownership is to blame for hoarding money in an uncapped year. But they did bring talent aboard when Denney Green was HC/GM. He didn't use it properly and was promptly replaced, but the talent remained. Whiz inherited that talent, enough of it to get him to the Superbowl in his second year here.

Remember though, that Whiz did not exactly know what to do with that talent initially. He tried to serve us a dose of Brian St.Pierre for a starting QB, when he had both Warner and Leinart on the roster. When that failed, he chose Leinart over Warner, and it was not until Leinart was injured that he started Warner. It was like Whiz had to be beaten over t he head before he admitted that Warner clearly gave him the best chance to succeed. This took Whiz two off-seasons, two training camps, two pre-seasons, and 6 games into his second year to make this decision. Not exactly a QB ghuru in my opinion.

At the same time, he brought in Timmy Hightower, and about a third of the way into THT's first season, he began starting him over Edge as our RB. This despite the fact that Edge was not a fumbler, was a great blocker, and had more YPC over the season than THT did. Remember it was Edge who was the RB during the playoff run, not THT. My point is, that while Beanie is now in his second year, and has shown considerable ability in the very few carries he has compared to THT, Tim still is the starting RB, (austensibly becasue of his ability to block), contrary to the Edge/THT situation. Thus far THT has about 3 times as manny carries as Beanie, yet THT has fumbled the ball far more than Beanie has, and cost us more momentum changes and crippling turnovers that Beanie has.

What I am saying, is that Whiz apparently has a constantly changing set of rules, and that he applies them differently for different players. This has happened all across the board with our players, and I believe firmly that it has cost us players that we really needed to keep. I am not going to say that Whiz plays favorites, but that he constantly changes the rules depending on who he has chosen to be his starter in any given situation. Players don't only not like this, they hate it. They want to be recognized for their work and effort on a level playing field, and that changes with Whiz.

I'll give you another example. Daryl Washington was thrown into the fire immediately. Still, he acquitted himself very well. He was benched in favor of Gerald Hayes when Hayes returned from IR, despite the fact that he had 10 tackles, (two for a loss), and an interception in the previous game. Whiz, when asked why Hayes was starting simply said that DW had lined up in the wrong spot once during that standout game. Hayes has not, and will not ever have a game like that. But he has been around long enough to know in his sleep where to line up. Is it fair? I don't think so, and neither do many of the players. If his missed line-up had cost us the game, maybe I could see him being singled out, but he has not started since. Gerald Hayes is not exactly going to be our savior at the ILB position, but in Whiz's world, he trumps DW.

The same situation applies at Nose Tackle. Whiz continues to start Robinson who is no longer able to stop the run, or command a double team, despite the fact that he is the most knowlegable of our players at the position. In a game, he is practically worthless, yet he gets the bulk of the work during games, and is the starter. Dan Williams has clearly been outplaying him. Watson and Branch were clearly the best players at the position in TC, (at least according to what the board members who attended camp wrote in their reports to us). After being called lazy and overweight, they both took it upon themselves to get their minds and bodies right with Lott. Both came into this off season fit, and trim. Yet neither has started, (except for Branch who subplanted Campbell two games ago as the starting DE). Clearly, when they have been in the game, Watson, Branch, and Williams have all outplayed Robinson in the middle. So-----what rules are they violating now, that keeps them from being regular starters? How does Adrian Wilson remain a starter over Rashad Johnson? Why is Joey Porter being run out there to start at rush LB? Sure they both know the system, but neither has done anything this year to warrant their continued starting spots at their positions. This doesn't sit well with players, and it is not something that is new with Whiz.

Remember, Q was the warrior soul of this team. The FO saw this an immediately gave him a contract extension. Fitz, however received a much more lucrative one, and Q was upset that there was no such effort made to work on a similar one for him. It is only this year, that Fitz has equaled his number of catches. Haley took time to work with Fitz and make him better. I don't know this, but I suspect that if Whiz had done anything at all to encourage Q, or to give him reason to believe that he thought Q (worth the effort), maybe things would have been different with him too. Maybe he wouldn't have demanded a trade. As a HC, you just can't allow special treatment to one player over another who is just as valuable. Q was the Ray Lewis of this whole team, and every player on the team understood that he played harder than he needed to. He gave his all when it was not necessarily prudent to do so. No one worked or played harder than he did. Still, he was not given the same respect that Fits got, (and I am not talking about the difference in pay). It was clear that he was not valued the same as Warner, Fitz, or Wilson, even from a personal standpoint. What a shame and a waste of talent. Whiz had become very strongly rooted in this organization----so why did he not exert a little muscle or at least seem to care about Q's situation? It may have made huge differences.

As I said, Players wish to be given credit for their work, not taken for granted, or treated lesser than others who are not performing up to the level that they are. So long as Whiz continues to befuddle everyone with his misuse of talent, and lack of recognition for good work, we will continue to degrade as a real force to recon with. Whiz has reached the same power-level that Denney Green had here. While Denney brought us talent, Whiz has not. Further he has not worked fairly to keep the talent we have in my estimation. His constant tinkering with rules will run off nearly everyone who is worth keeping if not curbed.
 
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Duckjake

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He tried to serve us a dose of Brian St.Pierre for a starting QB, when he had both Warner and Leinart on the roster. When that failed, he chose Leinart over Warner, and it was not until Leinart was injured that he started Warner.

BSP didn't come to Arizona until 2008. Leinart was injured in 2007. But the fact that the Cards paid BSP a million dollars says a lot about their ability to judge QB talent.

BSP had been in the NFL for 7 seasons and only thrown 5 passes, and then when he finally does get a start stinks up the joint. How in the world does he stay employed that long?
 

Cbus cardsfan

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BSP didn't come to Arizona until 2008. Leinart was injured in 2007. But the fact that the Cards paid BSP a million dollars says a lot about their ability to judge QB talent.

BSP had been in the NFL for 7 seasons and only thrown 5 passes, and then when he finally does get a start stinks up the joint. How in the world does he stay employed that long?
It is the Cardinals and Rod Graves continues to be employed. It's funny they'll give BSP a million to sit the bench but not give Bulger a couple mill to play and maybe lead the team to the playoffs :shrug:.
 

Stout

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You have to look at it from the bizzaro azsouthendzone logic:

In one corner, you have Whiz - Who is going through his first losing season in 4 after wholesale changes and the loss of a Hall of Fame QB. Oh, and he's taken to the team to it's only super bowl, and has won more playoff games then every other Cardinals coach over the last...forever.

In the other corner, you have Graves and the Cardinals front office. A front office that has been the laughing stock of the league and arguably the most pathetic team of all time in all of sports.


The stupidity of certain members of this board is only superseded by their insistence to continue to make the same insane arguments over and over.

Stupidity isn't limited to one side of this debate. I put a ton of blame on both sides of the coin here. I've been on record as ready to run Graves out of town on a rail. He's utterly incompetent and moves like a snail.

Pretending that Whisenhunt is without blame in this fiasco, however, is just plain wrong. How much better would the run defense be without B-ROB starting at nose tackle? The man is so bad I watched him get driven 10 yards off the ball and then pancaked on the first play of the game. The run defense goes from horrific to passable the minute he's out of the game. Aside from the continued, idiotic starting of this over-the-hill oldster, we have gone over the list of questionable starters ad nauseum--the list of players Whisenhunt favors blindly without logic.

So, tell me again how Graves is the only one to blame? Or why you don't seem to have anything bad to say about Whis? There is no one, from front office to coaching staff, without blame right now.
 

Arizona's Finest

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Some random thoughts after reading this thread.

- I think the Rats and theSMel have the worst opinions of anyone I have read on this board other then maybe Cards Campos.

- There is blame to be passed around, but for the FO not to spring for Bulger was pretty stupid IMO. Bulger might not have won us the Super Bowl but he is light years better then Hall and Anderson and probably would have won us the division. I didn't want it at the time, but Schefter was right on about that one and if Wiz knew Leinart wasn't his guy, he should have traded or cut him last season.

- At least with Whisenhunt it is safe to say he didn't go into the season happy with his Quarterback situation, otherwise he wouldnt have gone so hard after Whitehurst and Bulger. This I know.

- Leinart lost ALL value once it was apparent Wiz didnt want him to start this season. That was Wiz's mistake to allow that to happen. But comparing him to Cutler is ludicrious. Culter has actually accomplished things in this league, has a cannon arm, and has been a starter since near the beginning. Matt Leinart hasn't done ANY of that and likely will follow the Jesse Palmer career route, first heading to the Bachelor and then ESPN.

- You seem to be a pretty educated fan bug, but to say why should guys be persecuted for not working as hard as Manning and Brady is ridicuous. The QB is the leader on your team and as he goes, much of the team goes.

Maybe other teams are okay with him being a average worker. I for one am glad Whisenhunt isn't one of them.
 

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Culter has actually accomplished things in this league, has a cannon arm, and has been a starter since near the beginning. Matt Leinart hasn't done ANY of that and likely will follow the Jesse Palmer career route, first heading to the Bachelor and then ESPN.

How many NFC Championship rings does Cutler have? I know that Leinart has one. How many division championships does Cutler have? Matt's team has two.

Did Cutler ever set the rookie record for most passing yards in a game? Matt did.

Does Cutler own the Broncos franchise record for passing yards by a rookie? Matt holds the Cards franchise record for passing yards by a rookie.

Did Cutler ever start a game that put new phrases into the American sports lexicon like "they are who we thought they were" and "crown their azz"? Matt has.

:D

Oh and by the way Leinart was starting by the 5th game of his rookie season. Cutler didn't even play until game 12.
 
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Duckjake

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Oh yeah here's another one. Has Cutler ever done something that was responsible for his team getting to the Super Bowl? Matt has.

If Matt doesn't break his collarbone, Warner doesn't get the chance to put up great numbers in the latter half of 2007, isn't the starter in 2008, and the Cards don't go to the big dance.

;)
 

Duckjake

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Gabe Watson is garbage so it's far from favoritism. Dan Williams has been playing a lot lately too so I don't see what's the problem, benching B-ROB isn't going to get this team some new linebackers.

The problem is that Robinson was playing most of the season. So what if Williams is playing a lot now? It's too late. And Watson is not garbage.
 

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The problem is that Robinson was playing most of the season. So what if Williams is playing a lot now? It's too late. And Watson is not garbage.

I'm not sure. According to one poster here, he was getting pancaked by a TE in the SF game. ;)
 

THESMEL

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har har

theory not fact, whatever value Matt lost has been multiplied By Whis proving how stupid he is about the QB position.
PGC, QB coach just about everything QB around Whiz is dead,

He needs an Offensive Coordinator, I'm pretty sure Big Ben is not the QB Whiz wanted, some body forced Ben on him and Whiz made the best of it.

Whiz aint got a clue? He would have been fired along with the other 3 if it wasn't for the newcontract.

and that is on the Owners.

I would love to see Whiz do great, but He has not done much right with this new contract.

please list rights? besides cutting ML in your book.

Some random thoughts after reading this thread.

- I think the Rats and theSMel have the worst opinions of anyone I have read on this board other then maybe Cards Campos.

- There is blame to be passed around, but for the FO not to spring for Bulger was pretty stupid IMO. Bulger might not have won us the Super Bowl but he is light years better then Hall and Anderson and probably would have won us the division. I didn't want it at the time, but Schefter was right on about that one and if Wiz knew Leinart wasn't his guy, he should have traded or cut him last season.

- At least with Whisenhunt it is safe to say he didn't go into the season happy with his Quarterback situation, otherwise he wouldnt have gone so hard after Whitehurst and Bulger. This I know.

- Leinart lost ALL value once it was apparent Wiz didnt want him to start this season. That was Wiz's mistake to allow that to happen. But comparing him to Cutler is ludicrious. Culter has actually accomplished things in this league, has a cannon arm, and has been a starter since near the beginning. Matt Leinart hasn't done ANY of that and likely will follow the Jesse Palmer career route, first heading to the Bachelor and then ESPN.

- You seem to be a pretty educated fan bug, but to say why should guys be persecuted for not working as hard as Manning and Brady is ridicuous. The QB is the leader on your team and as he goes, much of the team goes.

Maybe other teams are okay with him being a average worker. I for one am glad Whisenhunt isn't one of them.
 

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I still find it hard to believe that anyone thinks Bulger would have been the answer here. Sure he would have been better than DA--there are about 50-60 other NFL QBs better than DA(not to mention Arena QBs, CFL QBs and UFL QBs). Bulger hasn't played a complete season, completed over 60% or thrown more TDs than INTs since 2006...that was the ONLY season he stayed healthy the entire season. He is not Kurt Warner part 2, he played for the Rams and that is where the comparison ends.

Chances are pretty good Bulger would have spent more time hurt and inactive than actually games starting behind our swiss cheese OL.
 

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