Cardinals Seahawks: The everything wrong with Kyler thread

[AZ Native]

yes

first TD vs Minnesota last year

second TD to Kirk vs Cleveland last year

thats just off the top of my head

that is the confounding thing about Kyler: while inconsistent, he was actually going through progressions for most of last year

He has never been the same since he came back from injury last year.

 

[BritCard]

yes

first TD vs Minnesota last year

second TD to Kirk vs Cleveland last year

thats just off the top of my head

that is the confounding thing about Kyler: while inconsistent, he was actually going through progressions for most of last year

First TD vs the Vikings he ran around in a circle before throwing to Hopkins. It was the opposite of this.

TD to Kirk wasn't like this. He ran, he didn't stay on his toes and stay in form.

But man that seems like a long time ago. That Kyler was great. I don't get how bad he is. He was so good last year.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

A couple of staunch Kyler supporters liked your many posts.

I didn't say he doesn't throw receivers open. Now who is changing words? I said he cannot throw to receivers that aren't staring him down. He cannot throw on timing routes such as a simple comeback or an out route where the ball is already on the way before the receiver makes his break. Show me one and I'll eat my words.

I don't need to have played low level school football to understand the NFL game, which is not remotely similar.

I honestly find it incredulous that you are arguing THIS play was well quarterbacked. That throwing into 2 to 1 coverage for 5 yards with 30 yards available elsewhere is somehow good quarterback play that is worth $45m.

Would you expect Mahomes or Allen in that situation with a numbers mismatch to their right to take a 5 yard check down under no pressure to their left? Murray is paid more than both.

Does anyone else where look at that play and think "Well done Kyler? You got that one right".

My point, and I have made it really clear is that this play he didn't get wrong even if it could have been better. Go look at plenty of other plays when he didn't get it right, because they are out there.

I can find that post if you really want me to, but we both know which one I am talking about.

 

[AZfaninMN]

18th most pressured quarterback.

And it's not time in the pocket. It's time to throw and Kyler is throwing a lot of needlessly quick passes when he isn't pressured. We have all seen that with our eyes. So it's not a great mystery.

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I went by team even instead of QB and see that he’s 8th. The dolphins have used 3 QBs so really he’s the 7th most pressured QB in terms of pressures. All while spending only 2.1 seconds in the pocket. If you’re getting pressured yet spend so little time on average in the pocket then the Oline isn’t doing their job. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

 

[BritCard]

the thing i dont understand. I think its pretty unlikely that you get to 7th overall in passing DVOA in 2021 without being able to read defenses at all

yet, based on the Seattle film, thats exactly what it looks like

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He was far more patient in the pocket last year and far more accurate downfield. Had his best YPA by far. That's where he picked up his efficiency and what is missing this year.

When you give guys chance to get open downfield your EPA will be much better.

 

[Shane]

the thing i dont understand. I think its pretty unlikely that you get to 7th overall in passing DVOA in 2021 without being able to read defenses at all

yet, based on the Seattle film, thats exactly what it looks like

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Has a legit “star” QB #1 overall pick ever had this steady year to year improvement and then all of a sudden fallen off a cliff like this? I can’t think of one?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Has a legit “star” QB #1 overall pick ever had this steady year to year improvement and then all of a sudden fallen off a cliff like this? I can’t think of one?

I can't think of one either.

 

[BritCard]

My point, and I have made it really clear is that this play he didn't get wrong even if it could have been better. Go look at plenty of other plays when he didn't get it right, because they are out there.

I can find that post if you really want me to, but we both know which one I am talking about.

Any play where you take 5 when you can have 30 is a bad play.

Any play where you miss and obviously bad defensive set up is bad quarterback play.

It's not about what he did, it's about what he didn't do. When you get paid top tier money you are expected to do top tier QB things including taking advantage of defensive mistakes.

I asked you earlier, if this was McBride running into the EZ would you think differently? I believe you would.

This play in the 3rd drive of the game was an opportunity for momentum. A big play here for 30 yards (or even a score) gives the offense belief and impetus. It's still Q1, it would have been our first Q1 TD of the year. It would have lifted everyone. Instead we got a 5 yard checkdown.

It's not only about the yards. It's about momentum. And chipping away with 5.8 yard passes doesn't build any.

 

[BritCard]

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I went by team even instead of QB and see that he’s 8th. The dolphins have used 3 QBs so really he’s the 7th most pressured QB in terms of pressures. All while spending only 2.1 seconds in the pocket. If you’re getting pressured yet spend so little time on average in the pocket then the Oline isn’t doing their job. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

It would probably help if you had it sorted by pressure percentage and not number of pressures. As we have run the most plays in the league.

 

[BritCard]

Has a legit “star” QB #1 overall pick ever had this steady year to year improvement and then all of a sudden fallen off a cliff like this? I can’t think of one?

I can't think of one. I am starting to wonder if my Covid theory might have some legs.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Any play where you take 5 when you can have 30 is a bad play.

Any play where you miss and obviously bad defensive set up is bad quarterback play.

It's not about what he did, it's about what he didn't do. When you get paid top tier money you are expected to do top tier QB things including taking advantage of defensive mistakes.

I asked you earlier, if this was McBride running into the EZ would you think differently? I believe you would.

This play in the 3rd drive of the game was an opportunity for momentum. A big play here for 30 yards (or even a score) gives the offense belief and impetus. It's still Q1, it would have been our first Q1 TD of the year. It would have lifted everyone. Instead we got a 5 yard checkdown.

It's not only about the yards. It's about momentum. And chipping away with 5.8 yard passes doesn't build any.

Well that's where you are wrong.

Any play where you can have an interception/sack is a bad play then right? You can have an interception/sack on any pass play. The logic doesn't hold.

 

[AZfaninMN]

It would probably help if you had it sorted by pressure percentage and not number of pressures. As we have run the most plays in the league.

And probably the most screens in the league too right? Once again I’m not defending Kyler, I’m just pointing out that the offensive line has played terrible in allowing the most pressures, in total, all while spending the least amount of time in the pocket

 

[Krangodnzr]

Completely different debate, and the right one to be having.

You could argue that it might look the way that it is now. The counter to that, is that Kyler up until this year, has LOVED to take shots down the field. He did it often and was the best in the league at it for a time. So the question would be, 'What's changed?' The obvious answer is that Kyler, and Kliff aren't the same offense without D-Hop. It isn't that simple though.

I can tell you exactly what happened.

Kyler was really good at throwing those "alert" throws to Hopkins. Alert throws (if you don't already know) are when you see that target has man coverage with no help up top. Those players were highly successful and forced the defense to double cover Hopkins. Take that away and Murray has very little answer for the two deep looks teams are throwing at him.

What he has to do is beat teams over the middle intermediate routes. That will force teams to bring up their safeties to cover those zones. Murray isn't even looking to do that with regularity.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Any play where you take 5 when you can have 30 is a bad play.

False. It isn't a bad play always. It's a bad play when you nearly always do this which is what Murray is doing.

Any play where you miss and obviously bad defensive set up is bad quarterback play.

It's not about what he did, it's about what he didn't do. When you get paid top tier money you are expected to do top tier QB things including taking advantage of defensive mistakes.

I asked you earlier, if this was McBride running into the EZ would you think differently? I believe you would.

This play in the 3rd drive of the game was an opportunity for momentum. A big play here for 30 yards (or even a score) gives the offense belief and impetus. It's still Q1, it would have been our first Q1 TD of the year. It would have lifted everyone. Instead we got a 5 yard checkdown.

It's not only about the yards. It's about momentum. And chipping away with 5.8 yard passes doesn't build any.

I think we are seeing Murray struggle because he either isn't studying defenses enough/has a strong grasp of the gameplan or he doesn't have confidence in himself. He has enough time to cycle through targets, he just isn't doing it.

 

[BritCard]

Well that's where you are wrong.

Any play where you can have an interception/sack is a bad play then right? You can have an interception/sack on any pass play. The logic doesn't hold.

I don't even know where to go with this. I give up.

Kyler should just make 5 yard dump offs his whole career so he doesn't get a sack or INT. That's worth $45m.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I can tell you exactly what happened.

Kyler was really good at throwing those "alert" throws to Hopkins. Alert throws (if you don't already know) are when you see that target has man coverage with no help up top. Those players were highly successful and forced the defense to double cover Hopkins. Take that away and Murray has very little answer for the two deep looks teams are throwing at him.

I think that is part of it for sure.

What he has to do is beat teams over the middle intermediate routes. That will force teams to bring up their safeties to cover those zones. Murray isn't even looking to do that with regularity.

NFL offenses as a whole are struggling with teams using Cover 2 and forcing them to take what is underneath. Most offenses/QBs have adapted, this one clearly has not.

 

[BritCard]

And probably the most screens in the league too right? Once again I’m not defending Kyler, I’m just pointing out that the offensive line has played terrible in allowing the most pressures, in total, all while spending the least amount of time in the pocket

Where is this "time in the pocket" stat coming from? Do you mean time to throw?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I don't even know where to go with this. I give up.

Probably for the best.

Kyler should just make 5 yard dump offs his whole career so he doesn't get a sack or INT. That's worth $45m.

Yeah, that's the point I'm making about this one specific play.

 

[kerouac9]

Has a legit “star” QB #1 overall pick ever had this steady year to year improvement and then all of a sudden fallen off a cliff like this? I can’t think of one?

I can't think of one either.

I can't think of one. I am starting to wonder if my Covid theory might have some legs.

Lamar Jackson's QBR fell 17+ points in his fourth season.
Baker Mayfield's QBR fell 20+ points in his fourth season.
Peyton Manning's passer rating fell 10 points in his fourth season.
Cam Newton's QBR fell almost 10 points his fourth season.

Patrick Mahomes' QBR held steady in his fourth season, and then I decided I probably need to get some work done this morning. It's not unheard of for this to happen as more advanced tape comes out on these guys (who generally have made a playoff run and so are also facing stronger opponents).

That said, Kyler sucks right now.

 

[AZfaninMN]

Where is this "time in the pocket" stat coming from? Do you mean time to throw?

It’s called pocket time, which is from when the ball is snapped til the QB is either pressured or throws the ball. We run a ridiculous amount of screens bringing that down obviously, but the pressure percentage would go down on the same plays.

 

[football karma]

Has a legit “star” QB #1 overall pick ever had this steady year to year improvement and then all of a sudden fallen off a cliff like this? I can’t think of one?

Carson Wentz did something like this

Cam Newton -- but that was attributable to a shoulder injury that ruined his throwing motion

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Lamar Jackson's QBR fell 17+ points in his fourth season.
Baker Mayfield's QBR fell 20+ points in his fourth season.
Peyton Manning's passer rating fell 10 points in his fourth season.
Cam Newton's QBR fell almost 10 points his fourth season.

Patrick Mahomes' QBR held steady in his fourth season, and then I decided I probably need to get some work done this morning. It's not unheard of for this to happen as more advanced tape comes out on these guys (who generally have made a playoff run and so are also facing stronger opponents).

That said, Kyler sucks right now.

The Lamar one jumps out at you but that team last year was just riddled with injuries.

 

[gimpy]

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I went by team even instead of QB and see that he’s 8th. The dolphins have used 3 QBs so really he’s the 7th most pressured QB in terms of pressures. All while spending only 2.1 seconds in the pocket. If you’re getting pressured yet spend so little time on average in the pocket then the Oline isn’t doing their job. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

Your quote here is really confusing to me. Spending 2.1 seconds in the pocket doesn't necessarily mean the O-line is not doing its job to me. It could mean that Kyler is "only" going to his first read and then getting rid of the ball, which seems to be a common complaint on here.

 

[AZfaninMN]

Your quote here is really confusing to me. Spending 2.1 seconds in the pocket doesn't necessarily mean the O-line is not doing its job to me. It could mean that Kyler is "only" going to his first read and then getting rid of the ball, which seems to be a common complaint on here.

You’re right, but Kyler is also the 6th most pressured QB in the NFL. My point in this entire thread was the offensive line hasn’t played well like some have stated. I’m using the pocket time along with his pressure rate to show that the Oline in below average at best. A qb that throws so many short passes shouldn’t be pressured as often as he is if the Oline was playing well

 

[BritCard]

You’re right, but Kyler is also the 6th most pressured QB in the NFL. My point in this entire thread was the offensive line hasn’t played well like some have stated. I’m using the pocket time along with his pressure rate to show that the Oline in below average at best. A qb that throws so many short passes shouldn’t be pressured as often as he is if the Oline was playing well

He was 8th before, now he 6th?

He's actually 18th. Only percentage matters, not absolute numbers.