Cardinals' Talk April 2

Mitch

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1. I wonder if Steve Keim has told DE/OLB Dwight Freeney and/or CB Jerraud Powers to hang in there while he tries to negotiate a new contract with DE Calais Campbell so that when he can free up some cap space he will be able to get them signed.

To me this makes a good deal of sense, particularly after using the Round 2 pick to acquire DE/OLB Chandler Jones.

BA has indicated that he thinks the other pass rushers will benefit from the addition of Chandler Jones---and thus if they can keep Freeney for another year, it will buy them some added time to develop the younger rushers such as Shaq Riddick, Tristan Okpalauago, Zack Wagenmann and Mike Reilly.

I think BA&SK like the upside of the young rushers enough that they don't feel added pressure to draft another edge rusher in this draft, unless one like Victor Ochi, James Cowser or Matt Judon falls into their laps in Round 4.

As for re-signing Powers, what that would mean is that they have retained the same secondary as in 2015, save swapping Rashad Johnson for Tyvon Branch.

What this also means is that the Cardinals can wait to draft a CB to develop later, rather than sooner, if need be.

2. As we have seen, Steve Keim likes to trade down---especially if he can stay in the first round so that he can control the player's rights for 5 years. This year he has little wiggle room for doing that---one can't imagine that the Panthers would trade up one spot. Thus, the only other option is with the Broncos at #31 and who knows? Maybe they would be willing to trade up two spots to ensure that they get the QB they want?

3. Most realistically, however, if SK wants to trade down, he's going to have to trade down into Round 2. If he can stay within ten picks or os of #29, there will likely be a couple of players still on the board whom he would have been tempted to take at #29 anyway. Yes, he gives up the 5th year option for a first round pick, but he adds 4 years for the added player he selects.

4. The thing is---Keim knows that in all likelihood only 4 of the players he drafts this year will make the 53 man roster, so he has to make those 4 picks count. Thus if he can acquire another pick in the top 130---he can draft 4 players in the top 130 and select developmental PS type players in Rounds 5-6.

What would you think of these scenarios?

AZ trades #29 (Rd. 1) pick to DAL for #34 (Rd. 2) and #104 (Rd. 4).

AZ selects:

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Maliek Collins, DE/DT, Nebraska
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Deiondre' Hall, CB, Northern Iowa

or

34. Javon Hargraves, DE/DT, South Carolina St.
92. Matt Judon, OLB/DE, Grand Valley St.
104. Ryan Smith, CB, North Carolina Central
128. Jack Allen, C, Michigan St.

or

AZ trades #34 (Rd. 2) to NYG for #40 (Rd. 2) and #109 (Rd. 4)

40. Jaylon Smith, LB, Notre Dame
92. Nick Martin, C, Notre Dame
104. Cardale Jones, QB, Ohio St.
109. Ronald Blair, DE, Appalachian St.
128. Cyrus Jones, CB, Alabama

There is no question that adding extra picks gives the GM major flexibility, especially in adding a QB or a red short candidate like Jaylon Smith.
 
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pinetopred

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I always look forward to the Saturday morning posts Mitch makes that morning cup of coffee just a little better. I was thinking of tradedown senerio s what about this one trade 29th to the Patriots for both their number 2s and a 5th . I know it's moving down a bunch but I personally like having those stacked picks in the 2nd round and adding another 5th gives us ability to move up in the 3rd or 4th rounds.
 
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Good read Mitch. I would prefer the 2nd scenario you listed. I think they will trade back to pick up extra picks as well.

34. Javon Hargraves, DE/DT, South Carolina St.
92. Matt Judon, OLB/DE, Grand Valley St.
104. Ryan Smith, CB, North Carolina Central
128. Jack Allen, C, Michigan St.
 

TheCardFan

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Thank for the write-up Mitch.

I like the last option with Nick Martin, and Cardale Jones. If BASK thinks Jaylon Smith is worth the risk I am happy with the pick.

It would be great to address the C position, a tall CB to develop, and a QBOF. If only 4 people will make the team from this draft...it would also be nice to get help at LB or DT.

What are teams giving up to move into the 1st rd...thought it was typically a #1 pick the next year?
 

Goldfield

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A small trade back sounds good to me. But if the guy we want is there take him.
 

Shaggy

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I like this one.

40. Jaylon Smith, LB, Notre Dame
92. Nick Martin, C, Notre Dame
104. Cardale Jones, QB, Ohio St.
109. Ronald Blair, DE, Appalachian St.
128. Cyrus Jones, CB, Alabama

But I doubt they would trade and then trade again.
 

pinetopred

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Just looked at a draft chart nevermind Pats don't even have a 5th round pick from what I could see Lol the space between ears ears where good plans go to die
 

pinetopred

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Thank for the write-up Mitch.

I like the last option with Nick Martin, and Cardale Jones. If BASK thinks Jaylon Smith is worth the risk I am happy with the pick.

It would be great to address the C position, a tall CB to develop, and a QBOF. If only 4 people will make the team from this draft...it would also be nice to get help at LB or DT.

What are teams giving up to move into the 1st rd...thought it was typically a #1 pick the next year?
Not nessisarly all draft picks have a value the 29th pick is valued on a draft chart worth 640 pts in my senerio the Pats two 2nd round picks valued 592 so they needed two add a 5th round pick to make it even now that all gets thrown out the window if a team really really wants to move up but doesn't happen much anymore.
 

Bodha

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Im about 78% on board the "Chris Jones" express right now.


(if we dont trade back)



The more I watch him, I see Darnell. A massive penetrator from the DT position. In the baqckfield in a heartbeat.

Him on the interior + CC and Chandler on the exterior. Pass rush on top of pass rush
 

b8rtm8nn

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Regarding Powers, I think BASK is comfortable taking a chance with him leaving - he is a better slot CB, than outside CB, so no rush to re-sign him and they can wait to find his market value.

More importantly (IMO) is that we will draft a CB and re-signing Powers may be dependent on the type of CB they pick up in the draft - if they get a quick slot CB, then Powers may stay out and they bring in a vet with outside CB strength; if they get a CB with outside strength, Powers may be the vet we want as he can play outside but the rookie can push for that position and he can move to the inside at any point (I'm intentionally ignoring Bethel). So, a Cyrus Jones pick likely means no Powers to return.
 
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Mitch

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Im about 78% on board the "Chris Jones" express right now.


(if we dont trade back)



The more I watch him, I see Darnell. A massive penetrator from the DT position. In the baqckfield in a heartbeat.

Him on the interior + CC and Chandler on the exterior. Pass rush on top of pass rush

I hear you on Jones, Bodha. Jones has enormous physical talents---some scouts think he has most upside of any of the DT/DE prospects in this draft---which would say a lot because this draft is loaded at that position.

What concerns me about Jones is how he stands up off the snap, thus negating his power and quickness. I think he does this to try to read the play and then react, but this accounts for why he disappears at times in games. If the coaches can correct this flaw in Jones' game, wow, he could be special.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...i-state-dt-chris-jones-has-pro-bowl-potential
 
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Mitch

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Regarding Powers, I think BASK is comfortable taking a chance with him leaving - he is a better slot CB, than outside CB, so no rush to re-sign him and they can wait to find his market value.

More importantly (IMO) is that we will draft a CB and re-signing Powers may be dependent on the type of CB they pick up in the draft - if they get a quick slot CB, then Powers may stay out and they bring in a vet with outside CB strength; if they get a CB with outside strength, Powers may be the vet we want as he can play outside but the rookie can push for that position and he can move to the inside at any point (I'm intentionally ignoring Bethel). So, a Cyrus Jones pick likely means no Powers to return.

I think they would like Jerraud to return, but not at starter's money, which is why there has been a delay. If he doesn't get wowed by another offer, I think he will do what Jermaine Gresham and Chris Johnson did by electing to sign a one year deal in order to try to reset his market.

I also think that when Honey Badger returns, they will use him when they want and need to at CB....which is why they are very focused on adding another safety in this draft.
 
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Mitch

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Mitch

Mitch

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I always look forward to the Saturday morning posts Mitch makes that morning cup of coffee just a little better. I was thinking of tradedown senerio s what about this one trade 29th to the Patriots for both their number 2s and a 5th . I know it's moving down a bunch but I personally like having those stacked picks in the 2nd round and adding another 5th gives us ability to move up in the 3rd or 4th rounds.

I have been thinking about such a scenario too, pinetopred. Maybe the Pats throw in the first two of their 5 6th rounders #196, #204.

How would this look?

60. Nick Martin, C, Notre Dame
61. Matthew Judon, DE, Grand Valley St.
93. Miles Killebrew, S, Southern Utah
128. Ryan Smith, CB, North Carolina Central
167. Dominique Robertson, G/T, West Georgia
170. Brandon Allen, QB, Arkansas
196. Scooby Wright, ILB, Arizona
204. Moritz Boehringer, WR, Germany
205. Tra Carson, RB, Texas A&M
 
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overseascardfan

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I don't get the Matt Judon love. Dude is going to be 25 and he is coming from a small D-2 school. Yes he had 20 sacks but against a much lower level of competition and against kids that were a few years younger. He is a OLD project at this point, you don't use a 3rd rounder on a 25 year old project, maybe if he was 20.
 

WildBB

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1. I w

3. Most realistically, however, if SK wants to trade down, he's going to have to trade down into Round 2. If he can stay within ten picks or os of #29, there will likely be a couple of players still on the board whom he would have been tempted to take at #29 anyway. Yes, he gives up the 5th year option for a first round pick, but he adds 4 years for the added player he selects.

4. The thing is---Keim knows that in all likelihood only 4 of the players he drafts this year will make the 53 man roster, so he has to make those 4 picks count. Thus if he can acquire another pick in the top 130---he can draft 4 players in the top 130 and select developmental PS type players in Rounds 5-6.

What would you think of these scenarios?

AZ trades #29 (Rd. 1) pick to DAL for #34 (Rd. 2) and #104 (Rd. 4).

AZ selects:

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Maliek Collins, DE/DT, Nebraska
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Deiondre' Hall, CB, Northern Iowa

or

34. Javon Hargraves, DE/DT, South Carolina St.
92. Matt Judon, OLB/DE, Grand Valley St.
104. Ryan Smith, CB, North Carolina Central
128. Jack Allen, C, Michigan St.

or

AZ trades #34 (Rd. 2) to NYG for #40 (Rd. 2) and #109 (Rd. 4)

40. Jaylon Smith, LB, Notre Dame
92. Nick Martin, C, Notre Dame
104. Cardale Jones, QB, Ohio St.
109. Ronald Blair, DE, Appalachian St.
128. Cyrus Jones, CB, Alabama

There is no question that adding extra picks gives the GM major flexibility, especially in adding a QB or a red short candidate like Jaylon Smith.
I 'm like SK, I really like the trade downs if available early.

1- It's an extremely deep draft for 4 Rd's yet again.

2- The pick within the first 10 picks or so of the second Rd., I agree, won't be much worse at all then picking 29. We have the flexability to take one of a myriad of extremely talented DLmen there or secondary. Personally I am COMPLETELY IN on drafting Jaylon Smith. But one of the top 7 DLmen (a super deep group) will also be there, as well as a top 4-6 CB.

3- All indications point towards the Cardinals taking a QBOF with the second trade down pick, either Jones, Hackenberg or possibly a smaller school dark horse a bit later on. Hogan in the 4th also would make some sense. Then you can take the interior OL and secondary after the initial pick.

4- As we saw last year it gives you all kinds of flexability to trade up in the following rounds to ensure one of your top priorities doesn't get snatched away.
 
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Vermont Maverick

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BA has indicated that he thinks the other pass rushers will benefit from the addition of Chandler Jones---and thus if they can keep Freeney for another year, it will buy them some added time to develop the younger rushers such as Shaq Riddick, Tristan Okpalauago, Zack Wagenmann and Mike Reilly.

Mitch- I would love to see them keep Freeney, but how many outside linebackers/edge rushers do you think we will keep?

Jones
Golden
Okafor
Freeney
Riddick
Okpalauago
Wagenmann
Reilly

and you also suggest we take another in the 3rd or 4th round?

Lets say we keep only one of the development group of Riddick, Okpalauago, Wagenmann, Reilly. That still leaves 6 OLB if we take use a draft pick on and edge player.
 

Buckybird

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I have been thinking about such a scenario too, pinetopred. Maybe the Pats throw in the first two of their 5 6th rounders #196, #204.

How would this look?

60. Nick Martin, C, Notre Dame
61. Matthew Judon, DE, Grand Valley St.
93. Miles Killebrew, S, Southern Utah
128. Ryan Smith, CB, North Carolina Central
167. Dominique Robertson, G/T, West Georgia
170. Brandon Allen, QB, Arkansas
196. Scooby Wright, ILB, Arizona
204. Moritz Boehringer, WR, Germany
205. Tra Carson, RB, Texas A&M

Sign me up with that draft right now!

Martin should be at worst a Seindlein type player

Judon has stud potential & would be an awesome pick.

Killebrew is the type of versatile S the Cards covet

I luv Allen as a QB prospect more than Jones & others in later rounds
 

gmabel830

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The more I watch him, I see Darnell. A massive penetrator from the DT position. In the baqckfield in a heartbeat.

Given his junk fell out of his pants when running the 40 at the combine, can we refrain from using the term "massive penetrator" for him please?
 

Bodha

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I don't get the Matt Judon love. Dude is going to be 25 and he is coming from a small D-2 school. Yes he had 20 sacks but against a much lower level of competition and against kids that were a few years younger. He is a OLD project at this point, you don't use a 3rd rounder on a 25 year old project, maybe if he was 20.

I loathe this age topic, like it matters. Sacks are sacks. What difference does it make if the guy is 20 or 25? 12 sacks are 12 sacks. Our best pass rusher last year? 36 years old.

Does Keim look at the free agents and say "Hes 36, no way!". He says "We need sacks, he can get us sacks". A 19 year old can bust just as quickly as a 25 year old. Its beyond irrelevant.

Furthermore that 25 year old has 5 more years of physical and mental maturity that gives him a major edge on the 20 year old.


and RE competition, a guy is special if he dominates regardless. Judon had 20 sacks, thats special. Kalil Mack is also a small school guy, Buffalo. Thats so disrespectful to say "hes a small school guy". Like small school players are inept. Theres not a soul on this forum, in his prime, who could beat a small school LT for 1 sack, if his life depended on it.
 
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oaken1

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I loathe this age topic, like it matters. Sacks are sacks. What difference does it make if the guy is 20 or 25? 12 sacks are 12 sacks. Our best pass rusher last year? 36 years old.

Does Keim look at the free agents and say "Hes 36, no way!". He says "We need sacks, he can get us sacks". A 19 year old can bust just as quickly as a 25 year old. Its beyond irrelevant.

Furthermore that 25 year old has 5 more years of physical and mental maturity that gives him a major edge on the 20 year old.
and RE competition, a guy is special if he dominates regardless. Judon had 20 sacks, thats special. Kalil Mack is also a small school guy, Buffalo. Thats so disrespectful to say "hes a small school guy". Like small school players are inept. Theres not a soul on this forum, in his prime, who could beat a small school LT for 1 sack, if his life depended on it.


the bolded part is the main argument against older draft picks. They are more matured...which usually makes them stronger than their opponents...and they have had more time to develop their skills as well.

a 20 year old,...totaling the exact same stats,...is more impressive than a 25 year old doing it...because the 20 year old is still going to mature and get stronger,...and possibly develop further....all you can do with a 25 year old is tweak their technique.
 

Bodha

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the bolded part is the main argument against older draft picks. They are more matured...which usually makes them stronger than their opponents...and they have had more time to develop their skills as well.

a 20 year old,...totaling the exact same stats,...is more impressive than a 25 year old doing it...because the 20 year old is still going to mature and get stronger,...and possibly develop further....all you can do with a 25 year old is tweak their technique.

Sure, if there were someone else with the same stats, but there arent any 20 year olds with 20 sacks. Judon, at 25, does.

So he doesnt have a young equivalent. The guy is just a beast
 

DVontel

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I loathe this age topic, like it matters. Sacks are sacks. What difference does it make if the guy is 20 or 25? 12 sacks are 12 sacks. Our best pass rusher last year? 36 years old.

Does Keim look at the free agents and say "Hes 36, no way!". He says "We need sacks, he can get us sacks". A 19 year old can bust just as quickly as a 25 year old. Its beyond irrelevant.

Furthermore that 25 year old has 5 more years of physical and mental maturity that gives him a major edge on the 20 year old.


and RE competition, a guy is special if he dominates regardless. Judon had 20 sacks, thats special. Kalil Mack is also a small school guy, Buffalo. Thats so disrespectful to say "hes a small school guy". Like small school players are inept. Theres not a soul on this forum, in his prime, who could beat a small school LT for 1 sack, if his life depended on it.

Pretty much what Oaken said, & there's a clear difference between D1 football & D2 football.
 

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Left to be proven wrong but I don't see a Freeney return. While Jones is moved around a bit his most effective pass rushing is off the left tackle; same as DF. So how can they create an incentive based contract for DF that makes sense given the number of snaps available?
 

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If only four will make the roster why not package up to get the best four possible? We can still do that by moving down, out of the first but why not maneuver all the capital to get the best four picks we can? The practice squad can be filled with our current guys plus FAs. Jaylon Smith can be stashed on IR so worth the risk at some point. Powers doesn't solve our problems at corner but he provides some nice depth. We need a starter who can defend the outside, a center. Of your drafts I like the framework of this one but would try to find a CB with the 92nd pick. Assuming we don't resign Powers I am fine with taking two CBs. Walter which corner would you slide in at 92 in this scenario?

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Maliek Collins, DE/DT, Nebraska CB Here
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Deiondre' Hall, CB, Northern Iowa
 

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