Cards Like Big Ben Better Right Now

[arthurracoon]

MJ says that right now the Cards have Ben Roethlisburger rated higher than Eli Manning.

Interesting...

EDIT TO ADD:

Jureki also stressed the importance not succumbing to public pressure of drafting a QB and said the Cards are in a lose-lose situation:

Draft Eli: might not help the team as much later...fans are mad
Draft someone else: fans mad now


Cards need to do what is best for them.


He also believes that SD will take a QB. Giants might trade to #1 to grab a QB.

 

[vince56]

probably just pre-draft posturing, but yeah I tend to agree. Roethy si great.

 

[Pariah]

Good. Draft Big Ben Roethlisberger.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have the sneaking feeling that the Cards are gonna piss a whole lot of people off in this draft (me not being one of them) and take a QB - All this Denny Green is in love with Fitz and Josh McCown is our starting qb stuff could be a smoke-screen - I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the Cards took either Manning or Ben if they fell to them and neither should anyone else - that being said I don't think it's a lock or anything, but I just have a feeling - and so far my feelings have been pretty dead on this offseason - can't wait to see what happenes - it's just 5 weeks away!

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

Originally posted by Pariah
Good. Draft Big Ben Roethlisberger.

No, don't until he's all that is left, and at 3 there's plenty to choose from. I really don't think we need a QB this year in the first round. Draft Gallery or the kid that plays safety.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by Oran
No, don't until he's all that is left, and at 3 there's plenty to choose from. I really don't think we need a QB this year in the first round.

We can either agree to disagree, or I can put you on my ignore list.

Wait, let's just agree to disagree...if I put everyone on my ignore list there won't be anybody left for me on the board.

I like McCown okay, but I don't think he'll be a great one. I think Roethlisberger will be. I think the same thing about LEftwich, and I don't want to see us pass up two great QBs two years in a row.

I can see where there's plenty of room for debate. Do we have other needs? Yes. But, is QB a need also? IMO, yes.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

A QB is a need, but I don't think we should get one this year. If Green is serious about getting to the play-offs, then we need to draft an immediate starter. Manning or Ben would be great, but I think it will set us back a year. Am I searching for instant gratification? I guess so. Rookie QBs are such a risk, and Green has had great success placing any QB in his system. Josh probably won't be a Hall Of Famer, but for this year I think we are okay with McCown and King.

Last year I said we should get King and everyone laughed. He's the best back-up Qb we've had since...I can't think of anyone but Dave Brown, and I'd take King over Brown anyday.

It seems like the Tom Brady, Garcia, Brooks, Jake D route is the way to go. Let a QB mature with another team for a few years and then let them fight for the starting position. Look at Carr or Harrington. They are slowly becoming good QBs, and by the time they are solid QBs their contracts will be up. Why deal with that?

 

[EnglishCardinal]

i would not like to say McCown is going to be our starter for next 5 years or so !!! based on two games - and would def like a Manning type with eal pedagree

if things improve under Green it could be our last chance for while to draft a top QB

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by Oran
...

It seems like the Tom Brady, Garcia, Brooks, Jake D route is the way to go. Let a QB mature with another team for a few years and then let them fight for the starting position. Look at Carr or Harrington. They are slowly becoming good QBs, and by the time they are solid QBs their contracts will be up. Why deal with that?

Because, if the QB (Harrington, Carr) does develop then he may never see FA. The ones you look for are the 2nd stringers who are maybe let go after they get a little experience. Kinda like what we have now in McCown. Been a backup for 3 years and has the physical tools so it is time we give him a look see and see if he can do it.

I trust DG's eye for talent. I am glad we have him calling the personel shots (at least I hope so).

I am hoping that coaching will get this team to perform to a higher level.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Here's an interesting way to think about things. What teams gerenally have the longest shelf-life in the NFL over the last 2 decades? You have the Niners in the 80's and 90's - a pretty incredible run stopping mostly with Steve Young's retirement - you have the Cowboys in the 90's - the Pckers in the mid 90's to the early 00s and now it seems like the Pats, Colts, Eagles and even Titans have been the teams that have been annually in the playoffs and in Super Bowls or Championship games - What is a huge common thread between those teams and their ability to re-tool and have long-standing success - Well - Joe Montana, Steve Young, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb - now I'd leave McNabb out of this list, but all of the other QBs above have been consdiered either the top QB in the game at some point or amongst the top three in the game.

Now we all agree that Dennis Green works wodners with QBs of all shapes and sizes - and we all would love to have the kind of success that the Niners, Cowboys, Packers, Patriots, Titans, Eagles and Colts have had - well we're staring down to guys with awesome skills - now you take those awesome skills these guys have AND match-them up with an offesnive genius and QB guru -and wouldn't it make sense that he would be able to bring those guys up to the potential that people believe them to have - which would equate to having one of THE best QBs in the league - which has been shown to be a stamp on THE most successful teams in the league?

Why not go for it? I believe that Dennis Green never got to the Super Bowl because he was missing that one leader WHO could get it done - yeah he worked miracles with retreads and even got Cunningham an MVP and a 15-1 record - but most of his teams were pretenders and we all knew it whenever they would get to the playoffs,

I am just thinking that if Dennis Green can make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t (which he HAS proved he could do) - can you imagine what he could do without having sh*t in his ingredients at all and was actually given everything he needed to make a great QB - I salivate at the opportunity to watch Green do that - I believe that's why he drafted Culppeper (and for all of you who think we'd struggle for at least two or three years if we took Mannign or Ben - remember that Culpepper took the Vikes to the NFC Championship game AND threw 38 TDs in HIS SECOND YEAR) and it's why I have a sneaking suspicion that we may take one of the QBs this year.

 

[jf-08]

Eli.

 

[Cheesebeef]

oh yeah - and I forgot to include a QB by the name of John Elway as well in my list above - he only went to five Super Bowls and had the Broncos competitive for 15 years.

Dennis Green plus top pick QB with all the tools = GREATNESS and GREATNESS = DYNASTIES not just three or four year runs!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Here's an interesting way to think about things. What teams gerenally have the longest shelf-life in the NFL over the last 2 decades? You have the Niners in the 80's and 90's - a pretty incredible run stopping mostly with Steve Young's retirement - you have the Cowboys in the 90's - the Pckers in the mid 90's to the early 00s and now it seems like the Pats, Colts, Eagles and even Titans have been the teams that have been annually in the playoffs and in Super Bowls or Championship games - What is a huge common thread between those teams and their ability to re-tool and have long-standing success - Well - Joe Montana, Steve Young, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb - now I'd leave McNabb out of this list, but all of the other QBs above have been consdiered either the top QB in the game at some point or amongst the top three in the game.

Now we all agree that Dennis Green works wodners with QBs of all shapes and sizes - and we all would love to have the kind of success that the Niners, Cowboys, Packers, Patriots, Titans, Eagles and Colts have had - well we're staring down to guys with awesome skills - now you take those awesome skills these guys have AND match-them up with an offesnive genius and QB guru -and wouldn't it make sense that he would be able to bring those guys up to the potential that people believe them to have - which would equate to having one of THE best QBs in the league - which has been shown to be a stamp on THE most successful teams in the league?

Why not go for it? I believe that Dennis Green never got to the Super Bowl because he was missing that one leader WHO could get it done - yeah he worked miracles with retreads and even got Cunningham an MVP and a 15-1 record - but most of his teams were pretenders and we all knew it whenever they would get to the playoffs,

I am just thinking that if Dennis Green can make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t (which he HAS proved he could do) - can you imagine what he could do without having sh*t in his ingredients at all and was actually given everything he needed to make a great QB - I salivate at the opportunity to watch Green do that - I believe that's why he drafted Culppeper (and for all of you who think we'd struggle for at least two or three years if we took Mannign or Ben - remember that Culpepper took the Vikes to the NFC Championship game AND threw 38 TDs in HIS SECOND YEAR) and it's why I have a sneaking suspicion that we may take one of the QBs this year.

There isnt a better way to say it.

You just dont pass up this type of talent for a unhearlded prospect from Sam Houston St. Sure give him his shot, but take Manning or Roth for the future!

 

[vikesfan]

If DG feels the BPA at #3 is Eli OR Ben. He will take him.


Please don't compare the pre-cap/fa era to the cap/fa in this era you DO NOT need a franchise QB.
Even Brady himself said he was a system QB not a franchise type QB.

QBs do develop and lose games for your team and then they leave
AND THEN they become good for some other team. Or become so expensive like Peyton that you gut your team to keep him.

The investment in terms of time and money and losses and outcome is not good.

He took Culpepper when he already had a good team, when he had an extra #1 pick. Even the year Culpepper started DG was trying to get Marino to come up for MIN for a year.

Wasn't Josh the 3rd best QB of his year. Hasn't he already put in 2 or 3 years of training?

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Wasn't Josh the 3rd best QB of his year. Hasn't he already put in 2 or 3 years of training?

First, Josh was the fourth-best QB of his draft class. He was drafted after Carr, Harrington, and Ramsey. All three are better prospects, by no small measure.

Second, Tom Brady is in the same class as Phil Simms or Brad Johnson. His team does well when their defense is borderline-dominant and wins games for them. All he does is not lose the game for them. Is he a system quarterback? Absolutely. Him and the Pats succeed because of incredible coaching and game-planning. Young, Favre, Manning, and McNair succeed and lead their teams to greatness because they put the team on their shoulders and will their teams to victory 4-5 times a season.

I agree with Cheese: dynamic quarterbacking is the difference between playoff-caliber teams and Super Bowl-caliber teams. That can be counter-balanced by great, and I mean GREAT, defensive play. Personally, I think that the Cards need more help on defense than offense, and I'm more philosophically aligned with building great defenses than making the offense score 35 points a game. But if you want the Cards to compete for Super Bowls sooner rather than later, and not progress from cellar-dweller to playoff-contender to possible Super Bowl entrant, then you should look at Manning or Roethlisberger at #3 overall.

 

[Tangodnzr]

No personal offense meant to anyone, (nor dorected to anyone specific person) BUT......

I say anyone who categorically states that Josh McCown is....to use Cheesy's analogy......sh*t that can't be made into chicken salad......is full of it.

He has demonstrated he's got the "tools". That's all you can ask for.
He may only have a limited amount of NFL playing experience, but however little it may be....it is far more than any college QB...who may also have "tools".

Does that guarantee he'll be a success? I don't think so. But that holds equally true for everyone one, including the current year's "can't miss college phenom(s)."

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
No personal offense meant to anyone, (nor dorected to anyone specific person) BUT......

I say anyone who categorically states that Josh McCown is....to use Cheesy's analogy......sh*t that can't be made into chicken salad......is full of it.

He has demonstrated he's got the "tools". That's all you can ask for.
He may only have a limited amount of NFL playing experience, but however little it may be....it is far more than any college QB...who may also have "tools".

Does that guarantee he'll be a success? I don't think so. But that holds equally true for everyone one, including the current year's "can't miss college phenom(s)."

I dont think many people are arguing that McCown shouldnt get a chance to prove his worth. At least I am not.

What I am saying, and have been saying for months, is I dont think it is very prudent to go into the season with all your eggs in McCowns basket with the 'Hope' he will be good.

As much as you might want to target the current crop of 'cant miss college QB's' one thing you dont seem to realize is there is a reason why McCown was taken where he was in the draft (which BTW would be no where near 4th QB taken in this years draft) and what his projections were.

You can say that nothing is guarnateed, and it doesnt matter what the 'experts' rated him, but it does. Similiar to how you wouldnt by a car w/o doing research. Some cars are rated higher than others. Some cars are BMW's while others are Hyundai's. Are you to tell me there is no difference in these two cars as there is no difference in Manning now versus when McCown was drafted??

Manning is a BMW and McCown is a Hyundai. Can the Hyndai be a good car? Sure, but why 'Hope' it can be a good car when you are reasonably sure the BMW will be?

 

[vikesfan]

QUOTE: First, Josh was the fourth-best QB of his draft class. He was drafted after Carr, Harrington, and Ramsey. All three are better prospects, by no small measure.

RESPONSE: So he was the Rivers or Henson of this year that year and cost a fairly high draft choice. But he already has started training. DG knows how to judge QBs. I wonder what his take on the 4 would be.


QUOTE: Second, Tom Brady is in the same class as Phil Simms or Brad Johnson. His team does well when their defense is borderline-dominant and wins games for them. All he does is not lose the game for them. Is he a system quarterback? Absolutely. Him and the Pats succeed because of incredible coaching and game-planning.

RESPONSE: TB could not win until B Johnson got there. Brad won in WAS and MIN too. DG wans to build a team here where the QB doesn't lose games for the team. He wants to build that here. NE did not have a dominating defense from the stats I saw they were mid-range.

QUOTE: Young, Favre, Manning, and McNair succeed and lead their teams to greatness because they put the team on their shoulders and will their teams to victory 4-5 times a season.

RESPONSE: Now TENN does have a solid defense. Young failed in TB only when he went to a team in SF that ran a system he could succeed in did he succeed - and that team also had talent. Manning runs a 1 of a kind offense in IND.
Favre loses as many game for GB as he wins. Last couple years they won cause of Green. You take Moss away from Culpepper and he ain't so good.

QUOTE: I agree with Cheese: dynamic quarterbacking is the difference between playoff-caliber teams and Super Bowl-caliber teams. That can be counter-balanced by great, and I mean GREAT, defensive play. Personally, I think that the Cards need more help on defense than offense, and I'm more philosophically aligned with building great defenses than making the offense score 35 points a game.
RESPONSE: The Cards are pitiful on offense and defense. They were LAST in BOTH. There is hardly an offensive juggernaut here waiting to be unleashed. DG did have good defenses in MIN - good T.O. defense especially.

QUOTE: But if you want the Cards to compete for Super Bowls sooner rather than later, and not progress from cellar-dweller to playoff-contender to possible Super Bowl entrant, then you should look at Manning or Roethlisberger at #3 overall.

RESPONSE: Like Couch for CLE or Leaf and Brees for SD or Collin for CAR or Dilfer and Young for TB?
You know the stats on 1st round QB busts and QBs who did well after leaving their drafting team.


The Cards are going to win SBs by creating a team with a system that can win with players who are quality talents. Not by following the 1st round QB trap and reaching for a QB.

STL has an offensive juggernaut with WARNER and BULGER look where they were drafted.

 

[Rivercard]

I would not be dissapointed in the least with Manning or Rothcheeseburger. Hopefully it will be our last chance to draft a top QB for a while.

 

[az jam]

Quite an interesting discussion. I agree with Vikesfan that Denny will take the highest rated player on the Cards board at #3. There won't be any Graves vs Green conflict as they will have decided on the rankings before the draft. When can all guess who the pick will be but one thing I know is that Denny will not give away his hand. He absolutely will have everyone guessing as he is a master at putting up a smoke screen. He also doesn't have the so called fan pressure or front office pressure as he is just in his first contract year.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by vikesfan
STL has an offensive juggernaut with WARNER and BULGER look where they were drafted.

I am so tired of hearing this argument for no taking a QB. Yeah, there are QBs that aren't high draft picks playing at a high level in the NFL. Does that mean QBs shouldn't be drafted high? Absolutely not.

QUOTE: First, Josh was the fourth-best QB of his draft class. He was drafted after Carr, Harrington, and Ramsey. All three are better prospects, by no small measure.

RESPONSE: So he was the Rivers or Henson of this year that year and cost a fairly high draft choice. But he already has started training. DG knows how to judge QBs. I wonder what his take on the 4 would be.

This is also flawed logic. You can't say the 4th QB in this years draft is equal to the 4th QB taken in years past. Think about the '82 QB class or the '99 class (I think that was the couch class) and compare those to last year's. You can't tell me that QB#4 was regarded the equally across the years.

If DG feels the BPA at #3 is Eli OR Ben. He will take him.

This is a cop out on your part, VF. DG isn't JC--you don't need to have blind faith in him. Grow some stones and develop an opinion of your own.

 

[EnglishCardinal]

just a point - if McCown had all the 'tools' then why was it not so obv to mac and graves that he should be given a chance when Blake was struggling last year ?

i even remember quotes from graves saying it was not clear who #2 QB was (Mccown or parsons)

 

[spanky1]

I'll be so happy when this discussion comes to a conclusion on draft day. It seems that this topic rears it's head every two weeks with the same arguments pro McCown and the same anti McCown.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by spanky1
I'll be so happy when this discussion comes to a conclusion on draft day. It seems that this topic rears it's head every two weeks with the same arguments pro McCown and the same anti McCown.

I kinda agree Spanky.

Like I have said. I want McCown to succeed and trust in Green. I just have visions of a long tenure with McCown at the helm and struggling.

Would much rather have someone 'waiting in the wings'

 

[JeffGollin]

Just because MJ says that the Cards rate Ben higher than Eli (as I do), doesn't mean they'll necessarily draft either one.

What the Cards will do with #3 is as murky as it was a month ago (Nice job, Denny and Rod!)

One possible clue - the Pro Days for the various Williamses and Fitzgerald. Roy Williams may have been onto something when he said that good, average or bad 40-times may serve to separate the pack.

Another way to interpret this is - If none of these guys run faster than 4.60 you might see the Cards either taking one of the 2 QB's or Taylor - or trying to trade out of the pick.