Cavaliers@ Suns 4-1-19

[95pro]

You get a double-double, you get a double-double, double doubles for everyone! Well kind of.

The garbage the Cavs took on to appease Lebron is a horrible product. I know there's hate on Knight, but good to see him on the court after his ACL injury.

 

[Hoop Head]

There isn't a JJ thread on the front page to post this in so I'll put it here. Here's 2 great plays by Jackson that happened right after one another. A nice dunk on offense followed up with a nice block on Knight on the other end. Jackson finished the game with 19 pts, 10 rebs, 5 blocks, 4 assists, and 1 steal while shooting 7-11 from the field and 2-3 from 3. He also hit 3 of 4 FT and did not have a single turnover in the 34 minutes he played.

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[Hoop Head]

Duane Rankin posted a short video of him talking to Jackson about the game, specifically mentioning that sequence. It's a short 2 minute clip that's worth checking out.

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[1tinsoldier]

the usual sensitive's are chiming in because i questioned Booker's leadership,
and i'm told i should, instead, "worry about my own personality issues."
oh, yes, there is "denigration" taking place but not by me.

3 or 4 poster's arguments have been a denigration of the rest of the Sun's
-- the "scrubs" who "shoot bricks" and mostly "suck", etc)
to them the Suns = Booker
well, guess what? -- that's the vibe his teammates probably get too

there's more to winning than individual +/- or even "efficiency" ratings
if you've ever played a team sport, or worked in a team environment you'll understand.
when the show is run by a strong but not wise leader, other's are not motivated.
when players or workers are invested -- when they share ownership -- they excel
1 + 1 = 3 (and there have been periods when it has this season)
but in recent years, 1 + 1 = 1

*we've seen Booker being cranky with teammates
*we've seen some team gelling when Booker was out
*we've seen some gelling of the 2nd unit when he's off the floor. Midseason they showed signs of being one of the league's best defensive benches.
*we've seen player's like Josh come to life when he's in more of a leadership role
*we've seen players watch and become complacent when Booker plays hero ball
especially late in games -- when the team concept falls apart.
Ayton, for example, usually becomes irrelevant

how do you think they feel when Booker isn't carrying his weight defensively yet dominates the ball offensively?
players like Jordan and Lebron set the defensive tone and intensity at key moments in games

the only 2 constants in the Suns' NBA bottom dwelling since they're last rise with Dragic & Bledsoe are:
1. inept coaching. 2. Devin Booker

i believe #1 and #2 are connected.
a better coach would have steered Devin's leadership in the right direction

Booker has to take the next step for the Suns to be a winning franchise
and that step is NOT putting more points on the board
and it's not just more assists either. he's done that and we're still losers

HIS TEAMMATES NEED TO RESPECT & BE INSPIRED by his leadership
and feel like they are of more value than just temporary placeholders
for the Suns' "franchise" player

it would be a mistake to discount this team as more Benders & Chris's.
there are players here who will shine for a real coach and alongside a mature floor leader

 

[1tinsoldier]

and while i'm speculating, i'll go a step further
my intuition is that lack of respect for Igor (from players like Ayton and Bridge's) mixed with Booker's defense of Igor, is a drag on team chemistry

i don't know about Booker's college experience
but his only model for NBA coaching and leadership has been the string of Suns' head coaching failures

 

[Hoop Head]

the usual sensitive's are chiming in because i questioned Booker's leadership,

You saying others are sensitive because they called you out for making baseless assumptions is funny. You haven't watched any of the recent games and that's obvious by your comments. It's ok that you haven't watched but what's not ok is trying to tell the people who have watched what happened. The rest of your post is as nonsensical as your opening so I won't bother addressing it. I'm sure this is plenty enough to get you worked up anyway. Instead of writing more nonsense to support your false narrative though I'd suggest signing up for League Pass so you can rewatch the last couple of games, then you'd see firsthand how your assumptions about how those games played out were way off base.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You saying others are sensitive because they called you out for making baseless assumptions is funny. You haven't watched any of the recent games and that's obvious by your comments. It's ok that you haven't watched but what's not ok is trying to tell the people who have watched what happened. The rest of your post is as nonsensical as your opening so I won't bother addressing it. I'm sure this is plenty enough to get you worked up anyway. Instead of writing more nonsense to support your false narrative though I'd suggest signing up for League Pass so you can rewatch the last couple of games, then you'd see firsthand how your assumptions as to how those games played out were way off base.

Yeah it would have been okay if he'd just stuck with general comments about Booker needing to learn how to lead better or keep his teammates involved and such but to tie it to 3 near perfect games was a huge mistake.

 

[Mainstreet]

@1tinsoldier

Booker has taken the next step this season. It started around the time the Suns acquired Oubre or at least that's when I noticed it.

It's carried over. Booker gets the attention of opposing defenses being double and triple teamed... and he still produces.

The thing is, no one player is going to carry the Suns when they are missing Johnson, Oubre, Warren and Ayton.

Add a starting point guard next to Booker, a healthy roster plus a couple more additions and this team can compete with anyone.

 

[JCSunsfan]

@1tinsoldier

Booker has taken the next step this season. It started around the time the Suns acquired Oubre or at least that's when I noticed it.

It's carried over. Booker gets the attention of opposing defenses being double and triple teamed... and he still produces.

The thing is, no one player is going to carry the Suns when they are missing Johnson, Oubre, Warren and Ayton.

Add a starting point guard next to Booker, a healthy roster plus a couple more additions and this team can compete with anyone.

Yes. This is true. Earlier I was calling Booker out for not stepping up, but he is. He is improving his efficiency and increasing his assist numbers. He is also working harder at D at least in short spurts. He needs to cut his turnovers some though.

We don't even necessarily need a starting pg next to Booker. Another combo guard--which what Booker has become, will work.

 

[1tinsoldier]

poop & az, is that all you've got on all the points i made about this season and the past couple of years?
--clinging to the last couple of games?
--pretending that you didn't already know that i listened to the games instead of watching them (as i've said twice this week)

Poop Head, i asked you several times to ignore me but you keep trolling my posts with comments as "funny" and "nonsensical"

i'll report your harassment

AZ, you're right that it was a mistake to bring up these points this week when Booker's production is at a high and assume others could handle it with an open mind. but i stand by my observations based on watching every minute of about 60 games this season

Booker has had near "perfect" games plenty of times over these years
(and i'll take your word for it that he was even closer this week)
and yet the Suns have won 1 in the last 7 games, with him once again "leading" the Suns to the bottom of the NBA, as well as their worst season ever.

he could still learn some things from Oubre, Holmes, Bridges, and even Josh, who are much more imperfect but can often be chemistry creators

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes. This is true. Earlier I was calling Booker out for not stepping up, but he is. He is improving his efficiency and increasing his assist numbers. He is also working harder at D at least in short spurts. He needs to cut his turnovers some though.

We don't even necessarily need a starting pg next to Booker. Another combo guard--which what Booker has become, will work.

And earlier I was pointing out that he didn't have the first step or lift he needs to succeed due to injury/rehab/conditioning. He's incredible, IMO, when healthy he is already a top 5 player in the league. But he's been in the league for 4 years and he only has maybe 50 fully healthy games. If he doesn't solve that problem I think we're going to have a lot of highs and lows with him.

 

[1tinsoldier]

you mean these 4 years ranking increasingly worst in Suns history as his role increased:
47. 2017 Phoenix Suns 24-58 .293
48. 2016 Phoenix Suns 23-59 .281
49. 2018 Phoenix Suns 21-61 .256
50. 2019 Phoenix Suns 18-60 .231

now, i believe Booker is "incredible" too
and he's part of the solution, not the problem
if a strong, wise coach guides this team with him as the go-to guy

 

[AzStevenCal]

you mean these 4 years ranking increasingly worst in Suns history as his role increased:
47. 2017 Phoenix Suns 24-58 .293
48. 2016 Phoenix Suns 23-59 .281
49. 2018 Phoenix Suns 21-61 .256
50. 2019 Phoenix Suns 18-60 .231

now, i believe Booker is "incredible" too
and he's part of the solution, not the problem
if a strong, wise coach guides this team with him as the go-to guy

I'm assuming you're responding to my post but if so, did you just skim it? When he's not at 100% he's not a star, far from it. His shooting percentages drop off the cliff and he is easily neutralized by decent defense. But he's been fully healthy in maybe 50 games (estimate, not research) over the past 4 seasons and in those games he's been spectacular to varying degrees. If we can't keep him healthy, he's maybe a good number 3. If he stays healthy, I believe we can win big building around him as a 1 or a 1a.

 

[1Sun]

I'm assuming you're responding to my post but if so, did you just skim it? When he's not at 100% he's not a star, far from it. His shooting percentages drop off the cliff and he is easily neutralized by decent defense. But he's been fully healthy in maybe 50 games (estimate, not research) over the past 4 seasons and in those games he's been spectacular to varying degrees. If we can't keep him healthy, he's maybe a good number 3. If he stays healthy, I believe we can win big building around him as a 1 or a 1a.

I think more needs to be discussed as to why our record has become progressively worse over the past four seasons...

This is about more than Booker.

 

[1tinsoldier]

"he only had X-many fully healthy games" can be guessed about any player given the stress on NBA player's bodies, but i agree he's missed a lot of games and it's a "problem"

and i fully agree the setting of the Suns is about more than Booker

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think more needs to be discussed as to why our record has become progressively worse over the past four seasons...

This is about more than Booker.

There's not much mystery there IMO. It's because we chose to go the tanking route and our picks and signings were not focused on bringing in wins in the short term. And when we didn't get lucky with draft position we went after projects. And in order to develop all those projects we chose to give them minutes they had yet to earn.

Also, Booker, when he's not at full strength goes from being an average or slightly below average defender to one of the worst in the league. Additionally, we've churned over this roster several times in just the past four years. There has been no player continuity and no coaching continuity. Those are all recipes for disaster as far as wins and losses go. Some of them were predictable, just the cost of doing business when you choose to be intentionally bad for awhile.

 

[1Sun]

There's not much mystery there IMO. It's because we chose to go the tanking route and our picks and signings were not focused on bringing in wins in the short term. And when we didn't get lucky with draft position we went after projects. And in order to develop all those projects we chose to give them minutes they had yet to earn.

Also, Booker, when he's not at full strength goes from being an average or slightly below average defender to one of the worst in the league. Additionally, we've churned over this roster several times in just the past four years. There has been no player continuity and no coaching continuity. Those are all recipes for disaster as far as wins and losses go. Some of them were predictable, just the cost of doing business when you choose to be intentionally bad for awhile.

Except they did not choose to be intentionally bad this year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Except they did not choose to be intentionally bad this year.

Well, that's not exactly accurate. They did choose to be intentionally bad (remember the 2019-2020 timeline plan) and then they changed their mind but too much damage had already been done. We entered the season with a new coach, huge turnover, unhealthy players, a very young roster, no quality veterans, no power forward and no point guard. Wanting to not be bad in that situation is like wanting to win the lottery, it has no bearing on reality.

 

[1tinsoldier]

we've been over this many times before:

*just about everyone here predicted we'd have about twice as many wins as we currently do
(we aspired for more of a Kings-like season than the 2nd worst team in the league)
*management accelerated the "timeline" -- that's what trading up for Bridges and acquired Ariza was about
*no one (except me) dared to talk of trading Josh after the way he ended last season
*switching out a bad coach for a new one was widely perceived as positive
*dumping so many bad players was supposed to be addition by subtraction in itself
*every team has injuries (and most are resting players this time of year)
*Holmes, Oubre, Melton and Bridges replacing players like Chriss, Chandler, Canaan, and Bender was a significant improvement, especially on the defensive end, yet we lost more games.
*the energy of our "young roster" is a plus
*then there's that generational #1 pick

so, again, why did we suck so bad?

 

[1Sun]

we've been over this many times before:

*just about everyone here predicted we'd have about twice as many wins as we currently do
(we aspired for more of a Kings-like season than the 2nd worst team in the league)
*management accelerated the "timeline" -- that's what trading up for Bridges and acquired Ariza was about
*no one (except me) dared to talk of trading Josh after the way he ended last season
*switching out a bad coach for a new one was widely perceived as positive
*dumping so many bad players was supposed to be addition by subtraction in itself
*every team has injuries (and most are resting players this time of year)
*Holmes, Oubre, Melton and Bridges replacing players like Chriss, Chandler, Canaan, and Bender was a significant improvement, especially on the defensive end, yet we lost more games.
*the energy of our "young roster" is a plus
*then there's that generational #1 pick

so, again, why did we suck so bad?

I'm
Guessing
One
Reason

 

[1tinsoldier]

lack of a team chef?

 

[Hoop Head]

Poop Head, i asked you several times to ignore me but you keep trolling my posts with comments as "funny" and "nonsensical"

i'll report your harassment

You said you didn't watch the games yet that didn't stop you from making claims like you did. If you didn't watch then why say that Booker was sucking all of the air out of the ball? That's not something you can gather by the boxscore.

If you don't like me responding to your posts, don't make such ridiculous claims and then I won't have to. Go ahead and report me for "harassment". We've been over this before, you don't even know what a "troll" is. It's not trolling or harassment to point out mistakes you made. You seem to say this alot, maybe you'll understand it if I use your own words "Don't be being so sensitive!"

I was going to respond to your list but the further I got when reading it the more I see it's all based on your assumptions of what they should have been. If you want to be pissed off the Suns didn't live up to your expectations then that's fine but your expectations were too high and that's on you. Because you misjudged the roster and players on the team you want to complain about how this season played out which is fine but don't expect any sympathy or for any one to agree with you.

 

[sunsfan88]

And earlier I was pointing out that he didn't have the first step or lift he needs to succeed due to injury/rehab/conditioning. He's incredible, IMO, when healthy he is already a top 5 player in the league. But he's been in the league for 4 years and he only has maybe 50 fully healthy games. If he doesn't solve that problem I think we're going to have a lot of highs and lows with him.

Whoah. That’s some seriously high praise and the highest I’ve probably ever seen on Booker.

I like Booker and I can understand calling him a top 5 scorer when healthy but top 5 player?

Curry, Giannnis, Durant, LeBron, Harden. If not LeBron then Kawhi (when healthy).

Who are you taking out of that group for Booker?

JMO, and since he’s still so young he could possibly get there eventually but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that when healthy he’s a top 5 player already. Top 5 scorer, sure but that’s vastly different than top 5 player.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Whoah. That’s some seriously high praise and the highest I’ve probably ever seen on Booker.

I like Booker and I can understand calling him a top 5 scorer when healthy but top 5 player?

Curry, Giannnis, Durant, LeBron, Harden. If not LeBron then Kawhi (when healthy).

Who are you taking out of that group for Booker?

JMO, and since he’s still so young he could possibly get there eventually but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that when healthy he’s a top 5 player already. Top 5 scorer, sure but that’s vastly different than top 5 player.

Top 15 is where I'd put him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Whoah. That’s some seriously high praise and the highest I’ve probably ever seen on Booker.

I like Booker and I can understand calling him a top 5 scorer when healthy but top 5 player?

Curry, Giannnis, Durant, LeBron, Harden. If not LeBron then Kawhi (when healthy).

Who are you taking out of that group for Booker?

JMO, and since he’s still so young he could possibly get there eventually but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that when healthy he’s a top 5 player already. Top 5 scorer, sure but that’s vastly different than top 5 player.

Yeah, you're right, top 5 is a definite overstatement but he's not too far off that group IMO when he's fully healthy. And I don't mean to suggest that his 50 fully healthy games (or so) were all at that really high level - they've occurred over the past few seasons as he's been developing so his his best today is better than his best of last year and so on.