Cavaliers@ Suns 4-1-19

[Mainstreet]

I think more needs to be discussed as to why our record has become progressively worse over the past four seasons...

This is about more than Booker.

Maybe we can attribute the Suns downward spiral to their past General Manager, Ryan McDonough.

He missed on draft picks, made poor decisions about Dragic, Knight, IT and trading Bledsoe too late. And I'm only listing a few mistakes.

The Suns have gone the last two seasons without a starting caliber point guard.

If the Suns had fared better in the draft alone they would be a better team.

 

[1tinsoldier]

...If you don't like me responding to your posts, don't make such ridiculous claims and then I won't have to. Go ahead and report me for "harassment". We've been over this before, you don't even know what a "troll" is. It's not trolling or harassment to point out mistakes you made. You seem to say this alot, maybe you'll understand it if I use your own words "Don't be being so sensitive!"...

when i see you getting into it with someone else on this board, i'm embarrassed for both of you -- so i just didn't want to be that guy too any more. so i did report you. but, apparently, i'll have to take care of it on my own

when i posted that the record & chemistry of this perpetually failing team might improve if Booker focused more on making his teammates better (like other NBA greats) it was exemplified by him going for 60 on a night he took more shots than 8 other Suns combined and they lost by 33 points.

reasonable people might disagree, but consider it an interesting take.
--not, as you taunted, "funny" and "nonsensical" and "ridiculous"
--not, as AZ interjected, an indicative of "my personality problem"
and not so wrong that you just had to "point out my mistakes"

there's a difference between degrading, insulting, and correcting

truth be told, i can ignore you but you can't ignore me because i challenge the Suns narrative that most comforts you in these trying times -- the salve to your anal fixation with your home team. I interfere with the carefully constructed defense mechanism that soothes the mental hemorrhoid in your self-labelled Caca Cabeza

yeah, we all have a bit of a "personality problem" if we're grown men wasting time arguing about the subjective reality of a ball game

but i'm willing to be the more grown-up man by avoiding debates with you that always turn into distasteful arguments that are uncomfortable for other posters

 

[Sunburn]

when i see you getting into it with someone else on this board, i'm embarrassed for both of you -- so i just didn't want to be that guy too any more. so i did report you. but, apparently, i'll have to take care of it on my own

when i posted that the record & chemistry of this perpetually failing team might improve if Booker focused more on making his teammates better (like other NBA greats) it was exemplified by him going for 60 on a night he took more shots than 8 other Suns combined and they lost by 33 points.

reasonable people might disagree, but consider it an interesting take.
--not, as you taunted, "funny" and "nonsensical" and "ridiculous"
--not, as AZ interjected, an indicative of "my personality problem"
and not so wrong that you just had to "point out my mistakes"

there's a difference between degrading, insulting, and correcting

truth be told, i can ignore you but you can't ignore me because i challenge the Suns narrative that most comforts you in these trying times -- the salve to your anal fixation with your home team. I interfere with the carefully constructed defense mechanism that soothes the mental hemorrhoid in your self-labelled Caca Cabeza

yeah, we all have a bit of a "personality problem" if we're grown men wasting time arguing about the subjective reality of a ball game

but i'm willing to be the more grown-up man by avoiding debates with you that always turn into distasteful arguments that are uncomfortable for other posters

Nobody else could hit a shot that night. If the shot that a player takes is more efficient than the resulting shot that would come about from a pass, the player should take the shot. It's about efficiency man.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Well, that's not exactly accurate. They did choose to be intentionally bad (remember the 2019-2020 timeline plan) and then they changed their mind but too much damage had already been done. We entered the season with a new coach, huge turnover, unhealthy players, a very young roster, no quality veterans, no power forward and no point guard. Wanting to not be bad in that situation is like wanting to win the lottery, it has no bearing on reality.

This is in hindsight. They expected Ariza and Ryan Anderson to have a significant positive impact. That just failed miserably. It was not that they did not plan and hoped things would work out. They had a plan and it failed.

I think they also just assumed they would be able to trade for a pg. Their original play was for Knight to play point and least for a while, but then he got injured and they had to trade him.

Oh well. Don't mean to be argumentative. Whatever the plan, if failed.

 

[BC867]

Well, that's not exactly accurate. They did choose to be intentionally bad (remember the 2019-2020 timeline plan) and then they changed their mind but too much damage had already been done. We entered the season with a new coach, huge turnover, unhealthy players, a very young roster, no quality veterans, no power forward and no point guard. Wanting to not be bad in that situation is like wanting to win the lottery, it has no bearing on reality.

Thank you for that point of view. It might even be said that (I know it's been said many times before) the
results are a product of the dysfunctional, meddling Managing Partner whose incompetence is reflected in
the sub-par people he hires. The negatives compound each season, as the record shows, especially since
the bright spots often don't progress to their potential. It is all an uphill fight, which wears on everyone.

 

[BC867]

Yeah, you're right, top 5 is a definite overstatement but he's not too far off that group IMO when he's fully healthy. And I don't mean to suggest that his 50 fully healthy games (or so) were all at that really high level - they've occurred over the past few seasons as he's been developing so his his best today is better than his best of last year and so on.

A "top" player who has stayed healthy in only 50 games so far is not an elite player.

I believe that endurance is indeed a factor in overall evaluation. It is an "if only" situation.

Plus, part of being an elite player is making the rest of the team better. They dysfunction
of the team in not his fault, but it robbed him of fitting that description. And of being an
All-Star.

 

[Hoop Head]

but i'm willing to be the more grown-up man by avoiding debates with you that always turn into distasteful arguments that are uncomfortable for other posters

Yes, your long diatribe that's filled with personal attacks says exactly that. Good to see you avoid me! I'd hate to know how much you'd right if you were actually looking to debate me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This is in hindsight. They expected Ariza and Ryan Anderson to have a significant positive impact. That just failed miserably. It was not that they did not plan and hoped things would work out. They had a plan and it failed.

I think they also just assumed they would be able to trade for a pg. Their original play was for Knight to play point and least for a while, but then he got injured and they had to trade him.

Oh well. Don't mean to be argumentative. Whatever the plan, if failed.

Not really. I'm sure I'm not alone but I cautioned about the rising expectations here several times during the offseason. I never expected the rookies to have much of a positive impact on our record and I doubt the front office did either. I also cautioned against the oft-stated position that our record last year was significantly worse than it should have been because we were tanking, I thought it was clear we were every bit as bad as our record showed.

And no way did we really expect Anderson or even Knight to make a difference IMO. Although obviously we all expected Ariza to help us quite a bit and we expected to see a trade for a PG but even so, many of us were thinking 30 to 35 wins maximum even if that happened. Anyway, I'd wager that James knew very well we were going to be horrible and he had Sarver's ear, I wouldn't be surprised if that had a lot to do with the timing of McD's exit. But you're right in that they put a plan in place with the hopes of winning but no, I don't believe they ever truly expected it would happen.

And to be clear, I'm not saying many of us didn't drink the kool aid at times but I'm pretty sure a lot of us had our fingers crossed. Watching the preseason it was difficult to think we'd be anything other than bad and that was before we lost Warren and before we watched Booker struggle throughout the first half of the season because of injuries. Plus the front office clearly knew that Ariza and Chandler were mailing it in, and they had to know why that was happening (a sense of futility). I never expected a sub-20 win season but again, I suspect Jones was not at all surprised by it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

A "top" player who has stayed healthy in only 50 games so far is not an elite player.

I believe that endurance is indeed a factor in overall evaluation. It is an "if only" situation.

Plus, part of being an elite player is making the rest of the team better. They dysfunction
of the team in not his fault, but it robbed him of fitting that description. And of being an
All-Star.

I agree. If you felt the need to point it out, I suspect you missed something in my post (this one and others on Booker) as that was at the heart of my comment. I love Booker, I still believe in him, but if his nagging injuries aren't resolved, our record will be hostage to his health. I do believe he makes his teammates better when he's truly in game shape but I don't know how much he helps us in those games where he's been unable to defend a rock or shoot effectively.

 

[BC867]

I agree. If you felt the need to point it out, I suspect you missed something in my post (this one and others on Booker) as that was at the heart of my comment. I love Booker, I still believe in him, but if his nagging injuries aren't resolved, our record will be hostage to his health. I do believe he makes his teammates better when he's truly in game shape but I don't know how much he helps us in those games where he's been unable to defend a rock or shoot effectively.

I was supporting your point, Steve, elaborating on what makes a player great and how endurance is part of it.

 

[1tinsoldier]

...Good to see you avoid me! I'd hate to know how much you'd right if you were actually looking to debate me.

luckily, you never have to find out, Senior Caca. all you have to do is NOT START UP WITH ME. there's countless times i could have refuted your posts over the past 5 weeks but i had the good sense to avoid your hostile energy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good Gravy... you two need to just get a room and get it over already!

 

[1tinsoldier]

Nobody else could hit a shot that night. If the shot that a player takes is more efficient than the resulting shot that would come about from a pass, the player should take the shot. It's about efficiency man.

...said Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony and others who had successful solo careers in a team sport for franchises that never went anywhere under their leadership

perhaps the biggest shot of Michael Jordan's career was the one he didn't take -- that John Paxson did in game 6 of the Finals against the Suns!

yes, it is about "efficiency" -- in coordination with your teammates.
the gold medal winner in a 3-man rowing event is not the team with the strongest rower

Jordan knew he could get himself going any time. but he didn't start winning with the Bulls until he understood that getting his teammate's shot going, confidence going, and defense going could be his greatest asset.

 

[1tinsoldier]

"My job tonight was to get everybody involved and make sure everybody got open shots." - Devin, April 1

you know, i got a lot of hostile flack for my Booker critique before that April 1st game that he won with a nicely balanced 25 pt, 13 assist team performance. it's encouraging to see that he reads my posts and can take and apply constructive criticism!