Cavs send us a Toronto pick instead of their own?

[Wally]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
I don't think we want three first round picks next this summer. That is way too many rookies.

If Lampe does not get any real time this year, it would give us 5 rookies on the roster next year:

3 picks
Lampe (virtual)
Milos

We'd have one player with about a half year in experience in Zarko and Leandro as a second year player. Good grief, even Amare and Casey are babies.

I understand a youth movement and all, but that team will not win much, just based upon experience.

We would be better off turning those 3 picks into one really good pick.

I would consider putting them together to obtain a quality, proven vet or two.

Exactly! But....
But I really don't think you'll see Kobe as a Sun because his ethics (or lack thereof) will keep JC from giving the green light. Even if he is acquitted of the rape charge, he has admitted that he has committed adultery and that's enough for JC to "just say NO" to any Kobe deal.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by Wally
Exactly! But....
But I really don't think you'll see Kobe as a Sun because his ethics (or lack thereof) will keep JC from giving the green light. Even if he is acquitted of the rape charge, he has admitted that he has committed adultery and that's enough for JC to "just say NO" to any Kobe deal.

That's right. Jerry Colangelo needs a man who never got accused of rape, and therefore didn't even have to bother admitting he comitted adultery.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by fordronken
That's right. Jerry Colangelo needs a man who never got accused of rape, and therefore didn't even have to bother admitting he comitted adultery.

The problem is that even if/when Kobe Bryant is acquitted most people will probably still be wondering whether he was guilty or not. Remember that being acquitted does not prove that he was not guilty. It just says the jury didn't think it was enough evidence to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he was actually guilty.

The other problem I have with Kobe Bryant is the way he played the "holier than thou" act until these accusations came out. It turns out while his wife and newborn child were at home he was nailing or possibly raping a 19-year-old woman he had known for 10-15 minutes.

Joe Mama

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by fordronken
That's right. Jerry Colangelo needs a man who never got accused of rape, and therefore didn't even have to bother admitting he comitted adultery.

There's a certain amount of implication here which could get you in a lot of hot water. I've never seen anything even hinting that JC has ever been involved in anything which would deserve this comment. Do you know somethig that I don't?

 

[elindholm]

I'm guessing he's referring to the Frank Johnson affair.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

If there is any less than a 75% chance we will get Kobe you are right Cap.

The only reason to do it is if they honestly think they have a great chance at stealing him away. We should have a better idea by the end of the season, although I dont think we will have a solid answer on whether he leaves or not until he signs a deal

 

[devilalum]

Originally posted by elindholm
I'm guessing he's referring to the Frank Johnson affair.

There's a big difference between standing behind an employee that does something wrong and going out and getting a guy with a history.

When Marbury got the DWI the Suns stood behind him. The Suns would look bad if they turned their back on a player that got into trouble.

They did the same with Kidd. Wasn't BC at the press conference when JK and his wife said they were seeking help.

Offering a contract to a guy that has already done something bad sends the message that your organization doesn't have a problem with what he did. JC will NEVER sign Kobe.

 

[slinslin]

Cavs apparently want a PG because Silas wants Lebron to play more like Jordan.

Combine Eisley with a package of the Cavs future pick and talk them into it.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by capologist
Giving up a mid-first-round pick for nothing except dumping the $6M/1yr left on Jahidi White’s contract is in-****ing-sane.

When I said we might want to move one of the picks, I meant for something of comparable value. The picks are very valuable. You don’t just throw them away.

I agree, but unless they do something like that it is highly unlikely they can sign Kobe. This is part of the "whatever it takes" issue.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by slinslin
Cavs apparently want a PG because Silas wants Lebron to play more like Jordan.

That seems like a stupid plan to me. I mean, I respect Silas as a coach a lot, but Bron is such a gifted passer. Jordan never intiated an offense in Chi, but Lebron could do it easily in a year or two.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
Cavs apparently want a PG because Silas wants Lebron to play more like Jordan.

Combine Eisley with a package of the Cavs future pick and talk them into it.

As it currently works, the Cavs future pick may never be used by the Suns. None the less, Eisley will have to play extremely well to get the Cavs attention.

Trading Eisley this season would require taking back a contract. Darius Miles is the most logical candidate since he is "team option" next season. Eisely might actually make a difference for the Cavs and get them into the playoffs, while Miles has not produced very much. (The Cavs have some other low priced ballast players to make up the difference in pay like J.R. Bremer).

I can't see the Cavs doing it, but it is not totally impossible.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
As it currently works, the Cavs future pick may never be used by the Suns. None the less, Eisley will have to play extremely well to get the Cavs attention.

Trading Eisley this season would require taking back a contract. Darius Miles is the most logical candidate since he is "team option" next season. Eisely might actually make a difference for the Cavs and get them into the playoffs, while Miles has not produced very much. (The Cavs have some other low priced ballast players to make up the difference in pay like J.R. Bremer).

I can't see the Cavs doing it, but it is not totally impossible.

That might work if they were going to trade Cleveland Eisley, cash, and a few first-round picks. Most teams will do anything possible to avoid taking on $15 million in salary.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
That might work if they were going to trade Cleveland Eisley, cash, and a few first-round picks. Most teams will do anything possible to avoid taking on $15 million in salary.

Joe Mama

It seems unlikely to me also. I suspect it would take at least the Cleveland pick and the lower of two other picks to make the move. I'm against it, but that's because I don't think the Kobe chase is worth it.

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by slinslin
Combine Eisley with a package of the Cavs future pick and talk them into it.

People sure do seem desperate to give away picks.

Draft picks don't grow on trees, you know. They're valuable.

Also worth noting —

These are the deals we have made in the last 10 years in which we have traded away first-round picks:

• Dan Majerle and a #1 for Hot Rod Williams
• Wesley Person, Tony Dumas, and two first-round picks for Antonio McDyess
• Mark Bryant and a first-round pick for L*c L*****y
• Danny Manning, Pat Garrity, and two first-round picks for ¢ Hardaway

These are the deals in which we have received first-round picks:

• Cedric Ceballos for a first-round pick that turned out to be Michael Finley
• Steve Nash for a first-round pick that turned out to be Shawn Marion
• Jud Buechler and Vinny Del Negro for Bo Outlaw and a pick (Amare Stoudemire)
• Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk for Joe Johnson and a pick (Casey Jacobsen)

I'm disregarding pick-for-a-pick swaps such as the Barbosa deal and the provision of the McDyess deal that ultimately caused us to give up a third pick and has the Cavs still owing us a pick all these years later.

Bottom line: We tend to do a hell of a lot better when we accept picks than when we give them away.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by capologist
People sure do seem desperate to give away picks.

Draft picks don't grow on trees, you know. They're valuable.

Also worth noting —

These are the deals we have made in the last 10 years in which we have traded away first-round picks:

• Dan Majerle and a #1 for Hot Rod Williams
• Wesley Person, Tony Dumas, and two first-round picks for Antonio McDyess
• Mark Bryant and a first-round pick for L*c L*****y
• Danny Manning, Pat Garrity, and two first-round picks for ¢ Hardaway

These are the deals in which we have received first-round picks:

• Cedric Ceballos for a first-round pick that turned out to be Michael Finley
• Steve Nash for a first-round pick that turned out to be Shawn Marion
• Jud Buechler and Vinny Del Negro for Bo Outlaw and a pick (Amare Stoudemire)
• Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk for Joe Johnson and a pick (Casey Jacobsen)

I'm disregarding pick-for-a-pick swaps such as the Barbosa deal and the provision of the McDyess deal that ultimately caused us to give up a third pick and has the Cavs still owing us a pick all these years later.

Bottom line: We tend to do a hell of a lot better when we accept picks than when we give them away.

Tiny correction. The pick the Suns got back from Orlando was protected. They would not have had to give it up that year. In practical terms the pick was for Carbakapa. Still a good deal.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

It really depends where the pick falls.

If it is out of the lottery, or even a #12 or 13 I wouldn't be against moving both picks. We have so much young talent on this team, that they need to stop adding to it for a year. Adding 3 more picks would be crazy. We now have 3 rookies, plus hopefully Milos this summer, plus our own pick. Plus CJake and Amare and Lil Jake and JJ.

Obviously I am more up for moving the two picks to get a higher draft choice (top 3) but I don't know how likely that is. And remember, the last team to do that (Houston) got screwed in the deal after just 2 years.


Not just for landing Kobe, but after looking at the numbers. If we were to sit on our cap room this year, and move Eisly, with only taking on one pick, we would dump another 12 million in salary for next summer (eisly and ward make about 6 a piece).

We are at just under 34 million right now. Add in 2 mil for a first round pick. Now we are at 36 million. Even if we extend JJ, it won't be much larger than the 3.2 million dollar option we are slated to pay(based on play as of late, I doubt it would go higher than 5 no matter what).

We can go a step further, and not pick up CJs option if he isn't working out. That saves another 1.8 million.


So if we can move eisly, plus the 2 first round picks, our salary in the summer of 2005 could look like, assuming JJ makes around 3.2 million......

23.5 million in guaranteed money. Only 21.72 if we cut Casey.

If the Salary cap is around 46 million (a little growth from this years expected) that would give us over 22.5 million in cap room, or 24.25 million if we cut Casey.


Talk about flexibility. We would still have a solid core of

Amare
Marion
Zarko
Barbosa
JJ
Lampe
Voskuhl

Plus the chance to sign 2 max FAs, or a max FA and role players.




Another bonus, not sure how it would work, but since the CBA expires that year, I would think our FA signings would follow the new guidlines. That may limit us to offering only 4 year deals with guaranteed contracts for players that are not our own.




Next question, other than the possibility of TMAC, who else might be available?




EDIT

I forgot to add the approx 2 million from this years pick to both those numbers. You also have to figure in our 2005 draft pick salary

 

[capologist]

Thanks for the correction.

Another one: my list of trades in which we have received first-round picks omits the one we made last week. It's a little too soon to evaluate how that trade turned out, so it doesn't really figure into the discussion.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by capologist
Thanks for the correction.

Another one: my list of trades in which we have received first-round picks omits the one we made last week. It's a little too soon to evaluate how that trade turned out, so it doesn't really figure into the discussion.

What is most important is that the Suns are very productive when they get high to mid level picks. Some teams routinely screw up the draft and are better off trading their picks than drafting stiffs. The Suns only "bad" pick has been Big Jake, late in the first round and I think he might have worked out if he had not been injured last year. (The jury is out on Casey, but he was another late first round pick).

I can see situations where a pick might be included in a trade for an established center or to move up in the dratt. But I really don't like giving away picks for cap space if at all possible.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
What is most important is that the Suns are very productive when they get high to mid level picks. Some teams routinely screw up the draft and are better off trading their picks than drafting stiffs. The Suns only "bad" pick has been Big Jake, late in the first round and I think he might have worked out if he had not been injured last year. (The jury is out on Casey, but he was another late first round pick).

I can see situations where a pick might be included in a trade for an established center or to move up in the dratt. But I really don't like giving away picks for cap space if at all possible.

I still don't believe Big Jake was a bad pick. The only guy taken after him that would have been a clearly better pick is Michael Redd. Of course considering the Phoenix Suns glaring need for outside shooting that was a pretty bad pass.

Right now it looks like the Phoenix Suns passed on a handful of good players to take Casey Jacobsen.

Joe Mama