Chad Ford at it again...

[azirish]

Never said you were wrong. Apparently I missed all Amare's great 18-foot jumpers you saw in 2005. I believe that a team with well-balanced scoring across the board is harder to defend than a one-man show. You don't.

There is a tendency to overrate the ability to score with a few seconds on the clock against really tight defense. Yes it's very nice to have, but great one on one players are a mixed blessing because they think they can score every time they have the ball - even when a teammate is open.

What makes Nash so dangerous at crunch time is that he gives the team so many options: pass, drive the basket, pick and roll, pull up jumper, fall away, and still hit 90% of his fouls shots.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Never said you were wrong. Apparently I missed all Amare's great 18-foot jumpers you saw in 2005. I believe that a team with well-balanced scoring across the board is harder to defend than a one-man show. You don't.

apparently - and I agree with your basic premise that a well-balanced scoring team is tough to defend, but a well balanced scoring team WITH an unstoppable force is IMPOSSIBLE to defend - that's what this team is missing right now and sadly, I think it's what keeps us from winning a title this year. Like I said, besides the Pistons, that player's ability to completely dominate if needed is the hallmark of all the title teams from the last 20 years or so - The Spurs have balanced scoring, but they have Duncan who's almost impossible to stop, the Lakers had TWO unstoppable players, the Bulls had good balanced scoring with Jordan as the unstoppable force, the Rockets had good balanced scoring with Hakeem as the unstoppable force and on and on and on.

No one's saying a one man show is better, but it IS better if you do have a guy that CAN do that consistently. And history has proven that. Honestly, with a 2005 version of Amare, no one would be able to take more than a game from this team.

i really think people forget just how unbelievably ridiculous that kid was becoming before his injury.

 

[Cheesebeef]

There is a tendency to overrate the ability to score with a few seconds on the clock against really tight defense. Yes it's very nice to have, but great one on one players are a mixed blessing because they think they can score every time they have the ball - even when a teammate is open.

tell that to Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Jordan and Hakeem.

do you really think it's a coincidence that the league's champions have been dominated by guys who can literally take over games all by themselves?

 

[msdundee]

There is a tendency to overrate the ability to score with a few seconds on the clock against really tight defense. Yes it's very nice to have, but great one on one players are a mixed blessing because they think they can score every time they have the ball - even when a teammate is open.

What makes Nash so dangerous at crunch time is that he gives the team so many options: pass, drive the basket, pick and roll, pull up jumper, fall away, and still hit 90% of his fouls shots.

Agreed 100%. Nash doesn't try to be a one-man show and that's the beauty of it. And the playoffs last year proved the Suns typically have several options for that last-minute shot if he decides to pass it. Can't double team 'em all.

 

[msdundee]

tell that to Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Jordan and Hakeem.

do you really think it's a coincidence that the league's champions have been dominated by guys who can literally take over games all by themselves?

I think the Pistons already told Shaq and Kobe -- at the same time.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Agreed 100%. Nash doesn't try to be a one-man show and that's the beauty of it.

and how many titles has that won him? How many titles did it win Stockton? Or KJ?

And Nash doesn't try to be a one man show for a very simple reason - he can't. He can't get his shot off against EVERYONE in the league like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem. And even with those guys, you guys seem to be making the case that Nash does something they don't,which is having the ability to spot the open man, which is pretty off the mark as well in my opinion. Who was it that made huge shots for the Lakers repeatedly? Robert Horry and Derek Fisher, because they were constantly getting the ball from a double-teamed Shaq or Kobe. What about the Rockets? Cassel and Horry getting kick outs from Hakeem. What about the Bulls? Paxson and Kerr and on and on and on and on and on. Difference is, Nash doesn't get doubled at the end of games and thus, when Nash can't get his shot off and people lock down on our shooters (like SA does beautifully) he can't go like Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem against everyone.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think the Pistons already told Shaq and Kobe -- at the same time.

that's a strong argument, pointing to the exception to the rule, which I already noted. Anything else to back up your opinion?

 

[msdundee]

that's a strong argument, pointing to the exception to the rule, which I already noted. Anything else to back up your opinion?

No way I'm going to change your mind, but it's beginning to sound like my "wishful thinking" is in direct opposition to yours. That's okay, every fan of every team in the league is guilty of wishful thinking, whatever tack they take. I happen to think the Suns have a good chance this year and there are some -- even outside the message boards, believe it or not -- who agree.

You do seem pretty convinced you're right, which would seem to make all the DB a waste of time.

 

[azirish]

Mostly the rule changes have made it easier to get ball movement while eliminating the illegal defense rules that gave the one on one guys such a huge advantage.

Rmember how Sir Charles would dribble forever waiting for a double team, which could be turned into an illegal defense call. Now a guy like Kobe finds that after getting by one guy, there is another defnder right biehind him.

This does not mean that a team with weak shooters can win it all with ball movement. But it does change the balance away from the single dominant threat.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No way I'm going to change your mind, but it's beginning to sound like my "wishful thinking" is in direct opposition to yours. That's okay, every fan of every team in the league is guilty of wishful thinking, whatever tack they take. I happen to think the Suns have a good chance this year and there are some -- even outside the message boards, believe it or not -- who agree.

You do seem pretty convinced you're right, which would seem to make all the DB a waste of time.

if you provided something other than the exception to the rule as evidence, you may have a point, but you haven't. Then, you go ahead and basically imply that I don't think we have a good chance to win this year - which is categorically wrong. I do think we have a good chance to win this year as I like us in a series against everyone but SA, but really that's a comment on the state of the league more than anything else. IMO, There's no one in the league besides Duncan who raises to the level of guys I was talking about or who play good enough defense to beat us. The Mavs don't have that guy because Dirk is mentally soft and Wade ain't healthy. So it's not that I think we have no shot, I just think it's easier to win with a player who can score at will as well as having options all over the place - how you somehow think that's off base is a little beyond me, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.

as far as DB being a waste of time, we mock what we don't understand! (and my God, DB has really taken off this year! Someone makes at least one comment about in almost every thread it seems! DB!)

 

[BirdMan21]

tell that to Dwayne Wade and the defending Champs.

all of this talk that Amare has a more well rounded game now, as opposed to 2005 is really just wishful thinking. The guy was literally unstoppable from almost EVERYWHERE, 18 feet out, down around the basket,on the block with his spin move and just blowing by people from the elbow. No one had ever seen the kindof game Amare was throwing down on people and to try and intimate that somehow, this watered down version of Amare is overall better Ithink is people trying to convince themselves we're better off this way. You're NEVER better off not having a guy who can literally do anything he wants on the court and that's the level Amare was at. We didn't lose becase he was scoring 37 ppg, we were losing because that team played literally NO defense.

make no mistake, a guy doesn't have to be a one-man show for an entire series, but almost every title team had a guy who's able to be a one man show for an entire fourth quarter - Amare ain't that guy yet. I'm just hoping we're the offensive equivalent of the defensive Pistons, the only other team in recent memory who couldn't depend on one guy to carry them down the stretch.

Agree 100% Amare was unstoppable in 2004-2005. This video on YouTube just shows how amazing he truly was. (questionable lyrics for work)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGqC83B3IoU&mode=related&search=

But that being said..... IF he ever could regain the explosiveness in his jumping that he had from that season, he would be a much better player. He has learned alot of moves to still be effective in the low post, but he just doesn't seem to have that raw power and speed he once did. When you come off a knee injury though, it takes a lot of time to trust your knee once again. And the fact that he has had surgery on both knees within the last 20 months, it will be interesting to see if he does EVENTUALLY get some more speed and power back. But if this team had the Amare from 2004, I think cheese is right when he says that it would be tough for any team to take more than a game from us. All that being said, I think our only REAL problem will come from the Spurs and hopefully the time off between games will give Amare the time he needs to keep his legs fresh.

DB!!!

 

[msdundee]

if you provided something other than the exception to the rule as evidence, you may have a point, but you haven't. Then, you go ahead and basically imply that I don't think we have a good chance to win this year - which is categorically wrong. I do think we have a good chance to win this year as I like us in a series against everyone but SA, but really that's a comment on the state of the league more than anything else. IMO, There's no one in the league besides Duncan who raises to the level of guys I was talking about or who play good enough defense to beat us. The Mavs don't have that guy because Dirk is mentally soft and Wade ain't healthy. So it's not that I think we have no shot, I just think it's easier to win with a player who can score at will as well as having options all over the place - how you somehow think that's off base is a little beyond me, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.

as far as DB being a waste of time, we mock what we don't understand! (and my God, DB has really taken off this year! Someone makes at least one comment about in almost every thread it seems! DB!)

"what we don't understand"? Really, try to get over yourself -- we're not talking rocket science here. As explained on the other thread, it sounded pretty basic: two guys watching a game, one can't talk right and the other can't hear right. The end result is promoted bigtime as a battle cry for the secret club up in the treehouse. Knock yourself out.

I hope it works. I hope Amare's been holding back, comes up with his best Kobe act, turns into an unstoppable force and scores 50 today. I hope Phil forgets how to run coaching circles around D'Antoni. I hope anyone who has an off game gets benched for the rest of the playoffs. I hope Denver knocks out the Spurs because we can't beat them. I hope this is the end of our exchange because it's gettting boring.

Next time you have breakfast it might be a good idea to check your own cheerios. (Sorry for borrowing that one, I know it's old and stale)

 

[Cheesebeef]

"what we don't understand"? Really, try to get over yourself -- we're not talking rocket science here. As explained on the other thread, it sounded pretty basic: two guys watching a game, one can't talk right and the other can't hear right. The end result is promoted bigtime as a battle cry for the secret club up in the treehouse. Knock yourself out.

uh, dude, "we mock what we don't understand" was meant as A JOKE - kind of like the whole DB thing was in the first place and continues to be! Sorry that line ruffled your feathers so much!

DB!

 

[azirish]

uh, dude, "we mock what we don't understand" was meant as A JOKE - kind of like the whole DB thing was in the first place and continues to be! Sorry that line ruffled your feathers so much!

DB!

Cheese, don't try to make jokes. It's like usiong Pat Burke at PG - just doesn't work.