Chance Warmack and Barrett Jones. The overhaul that we need is right there for us

[artp]

People seem to be aggravated that Massie, Kelemente, and Potter haven't proven themselves yet. Weren't they all mid to late round draft picks? I was encouraged by their play as rookies and look forward to what they do in 2013. Of course, Day 1 of the draft has to bring in an OL. I don't think the Cardinals should draft 2 OL at the top of the draft.

 

[Catfish]

I'm not really a fan of taking a guard in the top 10 but I may make an exception for Warmack. I think he's that good. After Joeckel, he's the best OL in the draft.

I have to agree with you. Maybe we could trade down a few spaces, pick up a 2nd rd. pick, and still take him, then a QB and an OT in the second.

 

[Duckjake]

I wonder how many people remember that the Cardinals have had a 1st round draft pick starting at LT every year since 1983 except for 4 seasons. 2007,2008, 2009 and 2012.

And of course being the Cardinals they had arguably their most success offensively during that time from 2007-2009.

Luis Sharpe 1982-1994
Ernest Dye 1995
Lomas Brown 1996-1998
LJ Shelton 1999-2003
Leonard Davis 2004-2006
Levi Brown 2010-2011

 

[CtCardinals78]

I wonder how many people remember that the Cardinals have had a 1st round draft pick starting at LT every year since 1983 except for 4 seasons. 2007,2008, 2009 and 2012.

And of course being the Cardinals they had arguably their most success offensively during that time from 2007-2009.

Luis Sharpe 1982-1994
Ernest Dye 1995
Lomas Brown 1996-1998
LJ Shelton 1999-2003
Leonard Davis 2004-2006
Levi Brown 2010-2011

Great stat DJ. The Cards are in a bad spot at 7, no QB is worth a pick that high and both LT prospects could be gone by the time the Cardinals pick.

 

[DoTheDew]

I've been preaching Barrett Jones for a while. He has also played every o-line position. He is exactly what the Cardinal's need. IMO the o-line needs to be fixed first. Then the QB position needs to be addressed.

We could do either one first IMO, but this draft and FA class makes it far easier to fix the OLine first this year.

 

[Totally_Red]

Great stat DJ. The Cards are in a bad spot at 7, no QB is worth a pick that high and both LT prospects could be gone by the time the Cardinals pick.

Yup! We are in no man's land. Too low for the two best left tackles and possibly too high for Chance Warmack. In that case, I'd probably take Warmack anyway.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Yup! We are in no man's land. Too low for the two best left tackles and possibly too high for Chance Warmack. In that case, I'd probably take Warmack anyway.

I've read some who have Warmack as a top 5 pick.

Probably not, but, if the Cards want him I wouldn't be dicking around with any trade down scenarios.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I've read some who have Warmack as a top 5 pick.

Probably not, but, if the Cards want him I wouldn't be dicking around with any trade down scenarios.

As we move towards April the talking heads will forget on-field play and start analyzing pro-day workouts.

We will get one of these people when we pick:

Joeckel
Warmack
Jarvis Jones
Matthews
Lewan
G. Smith

Moore & Lotuleili will be off the board when we pick however there will be a ton of quality talent left.

 

[Chopper0080]

Give me Chance Warmack (Alabama) in round 1, and Travis Frederick (Wisconsin) in round 3 right now. That leaves us a 2nd rounder to get creative with, and doesn't require trading up. Both are very physical, and Frederick also can play OG so he brings versatility.

Those two players would be tremendous in what they would bring to this team.

 

[WildBB]

Yup! We are in no man's land. Too low for the two best left tackles and possibly too high for Chance Warmack. In that case, I'd probably take Warmack anyway.

Lewan would be there, so would Mathews if he declares.

Draft Lewan move Levi to RT , Massie goes to RG mtl.

Draft Mathews and Levi stays at LT, mtl and he goes to RT with Massie again moving to RG.

Or move 11-15 take Warmack or Cooper possibly Mathews and pick up an added 2nd for your QB and another good OL man.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think Jones goes late 1st round.

Apparently he's having surgery for the lis franc injury so maybe that pushes him down a bit and we sneak him in th 2nd round?

 

[Chopper0080]

Lewan would be there, so would Mathews if he declares.

Draft Lewan move Levi to RT , Massie goes to RG mtl.

Draft Mathews and Levi stays at LT, mtl and he goes to RT with Massie again moving to RG.

Or move 11-15 take Warmack or Cooper possibly Mathews and pick up an added 2nd for your QB and another good OL man.

Now we want to move Massie, our best OT in 2012, to OG? I wish this board would acknowledge that there is a reason these positions are labeled differently and that players are drafted to play one or two, not all of them. Not every OT can play OG, just like not every OG can play C. There are differenced to playing each side of the line as well. If I can ever find a really goo article to link about this, I surely will. Drives me crazy.

It's the Eagles mentality of having Asomugha, Samuel and DRC and not understanding that not all CBs can play in the slot. Same with wide receivers, not all can line up inside or outside.

 

[bg7brd]

Now we want to move Massie, our best OT in 2012, to OG? I wish this board would acknowledge that there is a reason these positions are labeled differently and that players are drafted to play one or two, not all of them. Not every OT can play OG, just like not every OG can play C. There are differenced to playing each side of the line as well. If I can ever find a really goo article to link about this, I surely will. Drives me crazy.

It's the Eagles mentality of having Asomugha, Samuel and DRC and not understanding that not all CBs can play in the slot. Same with wide receivers, not all can line up inside or outside.

It's not uncommon for players that played OT in college to move to OG in the pros. Honest question...What is it about Levi or Massie that makes you think they can't play guard?

 

[Cardsfanstl]

And if you cant trade down. Take Lewan in the first and Jones in the second and move Levi to Guard. Its that simple.

I agree

 

[Reddog]

Lewan would be there, so would Mathews if he declares.

Draft Lewan move Levi to RT , Massie goes to RG mtl.

Draft Mathews and Levi stays at LT, mtl and he goes to RT with Massie again moving to RG.

Or move 11-15 take Warmack or Cooper possibly Mathews and pick up an added 2nd for your QB and another good OL man.

Matthews goes higher than you think. He may end up being better then Joeckel. I also think it is a big risk to go down for Warmack even though no one wants to take a guard in the top ten. This guy may be the exception.

Lets add a FA pick up of Long.

a. Draft Mathews or Lewan for RT and Levi and Massie go to OG.
b. Draft Warmack for LG move Levi to RG and Massie at RT.

I don't care what anyone says Levi can be successful at guard. Going from guard to tackle is a reach but not the opposite. He is crazy strong and has good enough feet. I would be more inclined to move him than Massie because Levi has less to prove and has already been paid, tested the market and accepted realistic compensation. Massie's chip needs to be exploited for motivation so he excels.

 

[Totally_Red]

Matthews goes higher than you think. He may end up being better then Joeckel. I also think it is a big risk to go down for Warmack even though no one wants to take a guard in the top ten. This guy may be the exception.

Lets add a FA pick up of Long.

a. Draft Mathews or Lewan for RT and Levi and Massie go to OG.
b. Draft Warmack for LG move Levi to RG and Massie at RT.

I don't care what anyone says Levi can be successful at guard. Going from guard to tackle is a reach but not the opposite. He is crazy strong and has good enough feet. I would be more inclined to move him than Massie because Levi has less to prove and has already been paid, tested the market and accepted realistic compensation. Massie's chip needs to be exploited for motivation so he excels.

Mel Kiper said in his chat today that Warmack may go in the 5-10 range and that Cooper may also be gone by the 15th pick. It's an unusuallly good year for guards this year.

D. Simon (Chicago)




The Bears have several needs (TE, getting younger on D), but obviously the o-line is the biggest concern. Drafting at 20, can they get Chance Warmack? How big of an impact can he make taking over at LG for us?
Mel Kiper (1:17 PM)



No. Warmack will be long gone. He has the potential to go top 5-10. The other OG Jonathan Cooper some teams like more than Warmack. This could be the first time in history that two guards go in the top 15.

 

[Chopper0080]

It's not uncommon for players that played OT in college to move to OG in the pros. Honest question...What is it about Levi or Massie that makes you think they can't play guard?

Here is the misconception, in college, many teams put their best athlete at LT regardless of their skill set because the edge is generally where the best pass rushers are in college. So, while 6'2 315 isn't ideal for a LT, in college if that guy is your best option you will play him at LT. See Senio Kelemente who played LT for Washington. See Barrett Jones in Alabama. This is why you see several teams drafting college OTs and moving them to OGs. Teams essentially will look and see the best player on that teams line, and if his skills translate to OG, then they draft him and move him. The most common reason for this move is height and arm length. Short, squatty OTs rarely work in the NFL.

So, why can't just any OT move to OG. There are a couple reasons. First is leverage. In order to play OG you need to be able to play with great leverage because the difference in size between OGs and DTs is not very great. This is why shorter OGs are normally better than taller OGs. Second is difference in movement between the two positions. OTs generally will drop set more often than OGs because they are normally more subject to an outside rush. OGs have to be better laterally than OTs because they have to be able to pass off rushers. OGs alse need to be much stronger because they have to be able to enguage a defender, disenguage the defender, slide and then enguage another. Long OTs generally aren't suited for this.

In terms of Bobby Massie and Levi Brown, here are the reasons why, IMO, they won't work as OGs. Neither play with great knee bend which hurts them in terms of playing with leverage. However, because they are bigger than most edge rushers, they can still have a strength advantage. Against bigger, stronger DTs, they generally will struggle because they play too tall. Also, neither are tremendous athletes which is why both have played their best football out of the RT position. With a very athletic OT, it is just an issue with strength when playing inside because they already have great feet. With a less athletic OT, it becomes both a strength issue and a footwork issue. So, in summary, a lack of top athleticism, footwork, and playing leverage are what keep Brown and Massie from being OGs options.

Essentially, this is what you are seeing with Daryn Colledge. A drafted OT by Green Bay who failed and was moved inside. He then became their worst offensive lineman and they got rid of him.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Apparently he's having surgery for the lis franc injury so maybe that pushes him down a bit and we sneak him in th 2nd round?

If he cant work for out for anyone it will be a possibility.

 

[JeffGollin]

Matthews goes higher than you think...

Matthews was reported - either by ESPN or NFLN - to be considering staying in school.

 

[Russ Smith]

Matthews was reported - either by ESPN or NFLN - to be considering staying in school.

ESPN had it running this morning across the crawl at the bottom of the screen.

Not official but rumored to be leaning towards staying.

 

[Reddog]

Matthews was reported - either by ESPN or NFLN - to be considering staying in school.

I heard that too but I think it is a big risk given the chances are the guy will go very high this year (top 10). He has has great NFL genes.

 

[WildBB]

Now we want to move Massie, our best OT in 2012, to OG? I wish this board would acknowledge that there is a reason these positions are labeled differently and that players are drafted to play one or two, not all of them. Not every OT can play OG, just like not every OG can play C. There are differenced to playing each side of the line as well. If I can ever find a really goo article to link about this, I surely will. Drives me crazy.

It's the Eagles mentality of having Asomugha, Samuel and DRC and not understanding that not all CBs can play in the slot. Same with wide receivers, not all can line up inside or outside.

Massie was the best OT, but that isn't saying much. He did improve somewhat. Is he better than Levi would be over there? Maybe Levi would be open to making the switch and just hammering dudes. I don't know. Just throwing out possibilities. Maybe he gets cut altogether in the new regime. Again, who knows?

I do know I don't want Potter and Massie as starters on the outside starting out next yr. Maybe Massie if he keeps up the good work off season and into the pre-season.

 

[WildBB]

With a less athletic OT, it becomes both a strength issue and a footwork issue. So, in summary, a lack of top athleticism, footwork, and playing leverage are what keep Brown and Massie from being OGs options.

Essentially, this is what you are seeing with Daryn Colledge. A drafted OT by Green Bay who failed and was moved inside. He then became their worst offensive lineman and they got rid of him.

The bolded also describes half the present OG's in the NFL. Most who have played there most of their careers have the leverage aspect down. I think Levi could handle it at this stage of his NFL career.

GB's line was pretty horrid too this year. Colledge is usually at least average. I think they could have used average this year. Rogers continues to bail a below average line out.

 

[Zeno]

Here is the misconception, in college, many teams put their best athlete at LT regardless of their skill set because the edge is generally where the best pass rushers are in college. So, while 6'2 315 isn't ideal for a LT, in college if that guy is your best option you will play him at LT. See Senio Kelemente who played LT for Washington. See Barrett Jones in Alabama. This is why you see several teams drafting college OTs and moving them to OGs. Teams essentially will look and see the best player on that teams line, and if his skills translate to OG, then they draft him and move him. The most common reason for this move is height and arm length. Short, squatty OTs rarely work in the NFL.

So, why can't just any OT move to OG. There are a couple reasons. First is leverage. In order to play OG you need to be able to play with great leverage because the difference in size between OGs and DTs is not very great. This is why shorter OGs are normally better than taller OGs. Second is difference in movement between the two positions. OTs generally will drop set more often than OGs because they are normally more subject to an outside rush. OGs have to be better laterally than OTs because they have to be able to pass off rushers. OGs alse need to be much stronger because they have to be able to enguage a defender, disenguage the defender, slide and then enguage another. Long OTs generally aren't suited for this.

In terms of Bobby Massie and Levi Brown, here are the reasons why, IMO, they won't work as OGs. Neither play with great knee bend which hurts them in terms of playing with leverage. However, because they are bigger than most edge rushers, they can still have a strength advantage. Against bigger, stronger DTs, they generally will struggle because they play too tall. Also, neither are tremendous athletes which is why both have played their best football out of the RT position. With a very athletic OT, it is just an issue with strength when playing inside because they already have great feet. With a less athletic OT, it becomes both a strength issue and a footwork issue. So, in summary, a lack of top athleticism, footwork, and playing leverage are what keep Brown and Massie from being OGs options.

Essentially, this is what you are seeing with Daryn Colledge. A drafted OT by Green Bay who failed and was moved inside. He then became their worst offensive lineman and they got rid of him.

This is the best written explanation I have seen in a LONG time. great post Chopper.

I hope it will be read (and comprehended) and the Brown (or Massie) stuff to OG will be put to rest.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

This is the best written explanation I have seen in a LONG time. great post Chopper.

I hope it will be read (and comprehended) and the Brown (or Massie) stuff to OG will be put to rest.

Agreed. Keep Levi at LT, draft Warmack, and then maybe get more competition at RG/C.

Instant offensive line upgrade.