Charles Barkley: The Suns 'pinning themselves in a corner' with 3-guard system

[Covert Rain]

Give me a break, you dismiss devilalum's obviously exaggerated for effect hypothetical because its unrealistic, then you take SF88's patented nonsense as a serious consideration?

It's all hypothetical and I am not comparing feasibility of all of this stuff which won't happen if your asking my opinion.

However, I am game.....trading junk for a Super Star of LBJ stature is much more unrealistic versus the Suns signing another guard to upgrade the position if the Suns truly feel building around the guard position is the future and trading away or cutting one of their existing.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's all hypothetical and I am not comparing feasibility of all of this stuff which won't happen if your asking my opinion.

However, I am game.....trading junk for a Super Star of LBJ stature is much more unrealistic versus the Suns signing another guard to upgrade the position if the Suns truly feel building around the guard position is the future and trading away or cutting one of their existing.

One case was an exaggeration to make a point about not passing up talent when a good deal falls in your lap, its not about whether its realistic or not, it was merely to demonstrate an idea. While the other post was not about upgrading and a swapping of talent, no, rather the claim was its realistic to expect the Suns to retain everyone and pay a new PG 60 million too, which IMO is about as realistic to expecting as trading a danish for LeBron. No point was made other than to demonstrate the typical level of discourse of its source.

 

[sunsfan88]

Oh boy...and what does that do to our cap in terms of being able to sign arguably the most import positions on the team (big men)?

After all the extensions and contracts given out last year, we don't have a lot of cap space left anyway iirc.

It would not surprise me if you continued to contribute so greatly to Suns message boards to enlighten everyone.

Lol you literally post the same stuff that I say. You want the same things I want in terms of playing the young players instead of trying to become #9 again.

So if I'm not contributing though then you certainly aren't either.

And take a joke.

 

[Covert Rain]

One case was an exaggeration to make a point about not passing up talent when a good deal falls in your lap, its not about whether its realistic or not, it was merely to demonstrate an idea. While the other post was not about upgrading and a swapping of talent, no, rather the claim was its realistic to expect the Suns to retain everyone and pay a new PG 60 million too, which IMO is about as realistic to expecting as trading a danish for LeBron. No point was made other than to demonstrate the typical level of discourse of its source.

How is signing another guard not about upgrading talent? Ofcourse that's what it's about. Unless you are trying to fill a roster spot, when you are loaded with guards...there is no other reason to sign a guard on a roster that is already guard heavy.

I don't believe Bledsoe fell into our hands. There was short list and plan IMO by this front office. The premise is you have to believe that's how things transpired which I don't. Despite some of the past bone head decisions by this front office I give them more credit than that.

Also....I started out that post above with "oh boy"...as in yeah right and played along with the absurdity of the Suns even going such a path. Sorry if that was not more clear.

 

[sunsfan88]

Also....I started out that post above with "oh boy"...as in yeah right and played along with the absurdity of the Suns even going such a path. Sorry if that was not more clear.

I'm glad you realized that it was a joke. Its scary that other people think it could be a real possibility because of the other moves we've made lately.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm glad you realized that it was a joke. Its scary that other people think it could be a real possibility because of the other moves we've made lately.

LOL! So, you preface your "jokes" with "it would really not surprise me if..."?

Yeah, TOTALLY you're kidding around. Can't imagine how people didn't get it. Clearly you were just foolin. Like you were all the other times you've repeatedly said the same nonsense... such as in this whopper of a post:

So you know Reggie Jackson will be a FA next summer right? How would you feel about the Suns signing him if they get him on a bargain deal like IT? He may be BPA after the other free agents sign with their respective teams or whatever.

I can totally see McD and Hornacek's reasoning:

"Well, we wanted 2 fresh PGs on the floor at the same time and we figured we can have Goran and Eric rest while those two guys come in so everyone will be fresh".

I'm not joking, I can seriously see the Suns resigning Dragic and STILL pursuing Reggie Jackson to have a core PG group of Dragic/Bledsoe/IT/Jackson.

Sad part is that they will get some fans to buy into that crap too.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3111400&postcount=16

So... I suppose you were joking there too when discussing literally the exact same topic and players, despite making it abundantly clear that you don't think its a joke? Is that how you set up your best material?

Great joke!

Ha

Ha

Ha.

 

[sunsfan88]

Great article on why the 3 PG lineup is not the way to go

http://arizonasports.com/58/1805628/The

 

[BC867]

Great article on why the 3 PG lineup is not the way to go

http://arizonasports.com/58/1805628/The

From start to finish, almost word for word, I couldn't have said it better myself.

In fact, I have said it myself . . . as well as a few of us right from the beginning.

It brings me no satisfaction to see that the horse is still suffering and that outsiders are now beating it as well.

Sadly, it is time to put the horse out of its misery, so to speak. From nose to tail.

 

[Chaz]

"Position labels were created so novices can follow the game" ~Jalen Rose

I agree with him and especially in the modern NBA. You are your skill set not some position label.

 

[AzStevenCal]

"Position labels were created so novices can follow the game" ~Jalen Rose

I agree with him and especially in the modern NBA. You are your skill set not some position label.

I've brought that basic quote to the board a few times but that's the first time I've heard it from Jalen. I quoted a couple of former NBA Head Coaches making similar statements. The last time I heard it as "position labels are there for the fans, they have no meaning to coaches and players".

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I've brought that basic quote to the board a few times but that's the first time I've heard it from Jalen. I quoted a couple of former NBA Head Coaches making similar statements. The last time I heard it as "position labels are there for the fans, they have no meaning to coaches and players".

Steve

Jalen probably heard it from the coaches.

 

[95pro]

dumb decision and bad awareness by marcus. he had a good look at a 3.

 

[elindholm]

I've brought that basic quote to the board a few times but that's the first time I've heard it from Jalen.

It's usually attributed to either Albert Einstein or Abraham Lincoln.

 

[Chaz]

I only attributed him because I just watched him say it.

 

[BC867]

"Position labels were created so novices can follow the game" ~Jalen Rose

I agree with him and especially in the modern NBA. You are your skill set not some position label.

In our latest game (vs. Sacramento, which we lost) our top three scorers were Thomas with 26, Dragic with 13 and Green with 9. They are all Guards.

Not one front court player at double digit scoring. And that was with one of our three star "Point Guards" absent from the game.

The Suns may not play by "some position label", but the opponents do.

If Jalen Rose were right, why are the Suns the only NBA team who plays that way game after game?

 

[AzStevenCal]

In our latest game (vs. Sacramento, which we lost) our top three scorers were Thomas with 26, Dragic with 13 and Green with 9. They are all Guards.

Not one front court player at double digit scoring. And that was with one of our three star "Point Guards" absent from the game.

The Suns may not play by "some position label", but the opponents do.

If Jalen Rose were right, why are the Suns the only NBA team who plays that way game after game?

Not just Jalen Rose but I've heard Hubie Brown and Doug Collins say it too. And we aren't the only NBA team that mixes and matches. With Len we're still a bit on the small side overall but without him, we really have problems. And it's not like we didn't try to use our power forward, he just went 3 for 20 and killed us. Plus, if forced to use a label, I would have called the Gerald Green of this year much more of a small forward than a guard.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

Whoever said it, its a gross exaggeration. Even in the age of stretch-4s most of the time the big guys that carry the label PF & C play near the basket, gather in the bulk of the rebounds and shoot higher percentages. The guys labeled PG handle the ball the most and make well more than their fair share of the assists. The ones labelled SG and SF play on the wings and shoot a lot. My guess is that 85-90 % of the time guys are playing the position their label indicates. Probably over 99% of the time the players play their labeled position or one slot removed from it.

Whats probably true is that the coaches don't need the labels to decide who to play in which slot - one would hope not anyway as it would mean they weren't very aware of their players abilities.

 

[slinslin]

Whoever said it, its a gross exaggeration. Even in the age of stretch-4s most of the time the big guys that carry the label PF & C play near the basket.

That is not true at all, especially for Power Forwards.

And that quote is spot on. Just because Goran Dragic is labeled as a shooting guard this season does not make him one. He still plays according to his skills, unfortunately he simply struggles without the pick and roll.

 

[Chaz]

Whoever said it, its a gross exaggeration. Even in the age of stretch-4s most of the time the big guys that carry the label PF & C play near the basket, gather in the bulk of the rebounds and shoot higher percentages. The guys labeled PG handle the ball the most and make well more than their fair share of the assists. The ones labelled SG and SF play on the wings and shoot a lot. My guess is that 85-90 % of the time guys are playing the position their label indicates. Probably over 99% of the time the players play their labeled position or one slot removed from it.

Whats probably true is that the coaches don't need the labels to decide who to play in which slot - one would hope not anyway as it would mean they weren't very aware of their players abilities.

The quote is right on. Even on your examples the labels are nothing but abstractions to help people understand players in the context of a preconceived role on the court but are not necessarily a description of what they do on a specific team.

 

[Covert Rain]

That is not true at all, especially for Power Forwards.

I would like to see some stats to back that up. I was not aware that most PF/C do not play around the basket. I have not researched it myself.

And that quote is spot on. Just because Goran Dragic is labeled as a shooting guard this season does not make him one. He still plays according to his skills, unfortunately he simply struggles without the pick and roll.

For once I totally agree with you on that.

 

[slinslin]

How many power forwards can you name that live by the post-up? Zach Randolph and beyond that pretty much nobody.
And even Randolph takes a lot of midrange jumpers.

Gasol, Nowitzki, Amare, Griffin, Aldridge, Markieff, Ibaka etc their bread and butter are jumpshots and/or playing high post away from the basket.

 

[Covert Rain]

How many power forwards can you name that live by the post-up? Zach Randolph and beyond that pretty much nobody.
And even Randolph takes a lot of midrange jumpers.

Gasol, Nowitzki, Amare, Griffin, Aldridge, Markieff, Ibaka etc their bread and butter are jumpshots and/or playing high post away from the basket.

That's hardly proof. There are 30 teams with 60 starting big men between them. Like I said, I would like to see some stats that breaks down the entire league before I would say most big men don't play around the basket. You might be right but that seems like a huge leap just because you can name some shooting big men.

 

[Chaz]

That's hardly proof. There are 30 teams with 60 starting big men between them. Like I said, I would like to see some stats that breaks down the entire league before I would say most big men don't play around the basket. You might be right but that seems like a huge leap just because you can name some shooting big men.

First of all terms like "most" are general terms like the labels themselves. Second it depends on the offense or defense bring played. Big men probably, generally, play closer to the basket on defense. Many times on offense, if they don't get position early, big men are setting screens on that bring them away from the basket. The post up centered offense is far from common in the NBA today but it is used on occasion at any position that has an advantage.

Is James Harden a SG? Is Spencer Hawes a PF? Are these labels even useful?

 

[95pro]

Harden is definitely not a pg or sf though. He's there to shoot/score.

 

[Chaz]

But Harden is the primary ball handler and leads his team in assists which would put him in a PG role, which is the point.