Clark Judge on the Bears trade

[Skkorpion]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11583339

Interesting take.

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

OUCH!

BUT a pretty fair assessment I'd say.

 

[SuperSpck]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]All you need to know about this guy is that he once said he had "a stronger arm that John [Elway], hands down" and that "he'd bet on it against anybody's in the league" -- as if that somehow measured his greatness. First of all, I don't know that he has a stronger arm than Elway. I don't know that anyone does. Second, Elway made a name for himself not with his arm but with wins and fourth-quarter comebacks. In his second year, Elway went 13-3 and won the AFC West. In his third year, he was 11-5. And in his fourth, he was in the Super Bowl. That's how you measure quarterbacks, Cutler, not by arm strength. [/FONT]

First, the writer seems overly angry. I don't have the full context of discussion, but did Cutler himself ever equate his arm strength to winning in the NFL?
I doubt he'd be that stupid.
Look at the biggest names at the position: Montana, Manning, Brady, Marino. Aside from Montana's noted lack, the other guys don't have epic velocity, but they're more than capable of making good throws.
Look at the strongest "arms": Boller, George, Farve, Elway. Aside from the last guy on the list there's a lot of mediocrity and one guy who's been insanely unpredictable.

So again, I'd be surprised if Cutler made that equation, but was talking in terms of raw pass strength.

The author's other points are well received. Neither players has fantastic TD:INT numbers. Orton's a "football player", Cutler a "QB".
Cutler had weapons. Orton's had RB's and the occassional offensive line.

Now they've swapped positions, and I'd be a liar if I said I'm not rooting for Orton to start... and win (but he's an Iowa guy, so I'm a homer).

 

[Dr. Jones]

I hope we get them early. DRC will have 2 picks.

 

[WildBB]

"Chicago, your team just got fleeced".

 

[Pariah]

I don't have the full context of discussion, but did Cutler himself ever equate his arm strength to winning in the NFL?

He didn't equate arm strength to winning in the NFL...I think that's actually part of the problem with the quote. It didn't have anything to do with winning, instead it was self-aggrandizing and pompous. Had nothing to do with team or winning, just "look how great I am."

Cutler is a moron. I hate the broncos and I'll acknowledge that Elway is likely the best to play the position. As a QB in Denver you'd think he'd be smart enough not to put himself above Elway in any capacity...especially it's his rookie year (when he said it).

 

[DoTheDew]

I agree that at QB leadership is more important, but the fact that Cutler can throw deeper actually is more important for a run first team. Run, Run, Run, Run, long bomb play action, run, run, run. It is pass happy teams like Arizona and NE that make shorter more frequent passes.

 

[ajcardfan]

I saw a poll that was about 50/50 as to who got the better end of the deal. I couldn't believe it. I think the Bears got RAPED. I agree with Judge on most everything about this trade.

 

[SuperSpck]

As a QB in Denver you'd think he'd be smart enough not to put himself above Elway in any capacity...especially it's his rookie year (when he said it).

A truly bad idea.

 

[moklerman]

The Bears got raped? A franchise QB is well worth a couple of mid round 1st's. Elway was a douche and I'm not offended in the least that Cutler doesn't bow down to his memory. Elway was certainly NOT the best QB ever.

 

[Perfectionist]

I just don't see how he fits in Chicago, and I don't see why the Bears decided to dump their first round -- as well as their quarterback -- for someone who has done nothing in three years.
Good luck, Chicago. You wanted him. You have him. Now let's see you win with him.

I think that pretty well sums it up.

 

[moklerman]

I think that pretty well sums it up.

I think it sums up how bitter and biased the writer is. Look at what each QB, not their team's record, did in their first three years. Cutler simply blows away Elway's numbers.

Elway(40 starts his first 3 years--age 25):
664/1244 53.4% 8,152 yds 6.5 ypa 47 td(3.8%) 52 int(4.2%) 69.0 rating 27 fumbles

Cutler(37 starts his first 3 years--age 25):
762/1220 62.5% 9,024 yds 7.4 ypa 54 td(4.4%) 37 int(3.3%) 87.1 rating 6 fumbles
(everything "green" indicates which QB was better)

The author points out that "Elway's" record in his first three years is better but we all know that the team's record isn't a QB stat. Even worse, if you want to talk about the quality of the team, Elway's Broncos were 27-13 those first three years with Elway playing pretty mediocre football.

In other words, he had a lot better team and still put up a lot worse numbers than Cutler has so far.

Both of them are arrogant, pretentious, S.O.B.'s and this guy's an idiot to argue that Cutler is somehow not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Elway when Elway was the one who refused to sign straight out of college--with a team that wanted him. Cutler just got pissed because his owner didn't care if the team kept him or not.

Chicago finally got a franchise QB and Denver apparently didn't learn their lesson with years of Griese, Brister, etc. And they're putting all their eggs in Josh(Charlie Weis)McDaniel's basket.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I hate the broncos and I'll acknowledge that Elway is likely the best to play the position.

I dont understand how many, not just you Pariah, people think Elway is the best QB ever. Just off the top of my head, at pure QB skills Montana blows Elway out of the water. I probably put Marino there as well. Favre is better imo and thats just in my era. I could probably come up with a lot more.

 

[HookemCards]

I love how he points out that the Bears didn't make the playoffs because of there piss poor defense, then in the same breath criticizes Cutler for not making the playoffs last year, even though the Bronco defense was the worst overall in the league.

Those that think the Bears got fleeced think back to how hard of a time we had getting a Pro Bowl caliber QB between Lomax and Warner. The Bears got the better end of the deal in my opinion.

 

[ajcardfan]

Yeah, I think the Bears got fleeced, raped, etc. I think Cutler is a guy who is great enough to get your hopes up, and then break your heart, every year for a decade. IMO, he's never going to be a true winner in the NFL.

I could be wrong though. We'll see.

 

[Pariah]

I dont understand how many, not just you Pariah, people think Elway is the best QB ever. Just off the top of my head, at pure QB skills Montana blows Elway out of the water. I probably put Marino there as well. Favre is better imo and thats just in my era. I could probably come up with a lot more.

Because Elway would will his team to win. The first 3 SBs they were there (and blown out) only because of Elway...the rest of the guys on those offenses were garbage. Yeah, those other guys may have better physical skills, but no one could drive down the field with the game on the line like Elway. No one could look his team in the eye and say "get on my back, I'll take us there" like Elway.

As for Molker comparing stats in the first three years, I'd tell you you're not comparing apples to apples. The Broncos were HORRIBLE before Elway got there, and without Elway would have still been horrible. Elway got his numbers without anoyone around him to help; Culter is doing it with one of the top offenses in the league....and still not winning. (BTW, winning may not be a QB stat, but it's what history will remmber them for).

Godd lord, I can't beleieve I've just typed all that. I think I need to go take a shower.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Tell you the truth if I own a team and could have eithe Elway or Warner in his prime I go with Warner. I can probably name 20 QB's Id take before Elway.

 

[Mulli]

Tell you the truth if I own a team and could have eithe Elway or Warner in his prime I go with Warner. I can probably name 20 QB's Id take before Elway.

You should name them. I am not an Elway guy, but I think the list would be interesting.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You should name them. I am not an Elway guy, but I think the list would be interesting.

+1.

I can think of less than 5. 20 is absolutely crazy.

I will give you $100k A$FN for each QB that would be a majority pick through polls that is better than Elway. 5 is the over/under. For everyone you can come up with over 5, you get $100k.

 

[SuperSpck]

The author points out that "Elway's" record in his first three years is better but we all know that the team's record isn't a QB stat. Even worse, if you want to talk about the quality of the team, Elway's Broncos were 27-13 those first three years with Elway playing pretty mediocre football.

In other words, he had a lot better team and still put up a lot worse numbers than Cutler has so far.

Comparison across eras is always difficult. Defenses were physically brutal back then and turn overs were more a fact of life in the game. Today, the defenses are much faster, a reaction to being hamstrung by the rules (the game has been changed to open up passing lanes and put points on the board remember) and turnovers are more akin to death knells than simple mistakes to be made up for.

 

[CaptTurbo]

+1.

I can think of less than 5. 20 is absolutely crazy.

I will give you $100k A$FN for each QB that would be a majority pick through polls that is better than Elway. 5 is the over/under. For everyone you can come up with over 5, you get $100k.

You wont pay, and I know I am wasting my time because youll just lame up reasons why they arent but here ya are

1) Unitas
2) Montana
3)Tarkenton
4) Marino
5)Young
6) Anderson (yes look at stats)
7)Fouts
8)Favre
9)Stauhbach
10)Jurgenson
11) Starr
12) Manning

Then there are those whom stats dont compare on paper but I would take
13) Warner
14) Moon
15)Tittle
16)Brocklin
17)Brady
18) Dawson
19) Layne
20) Simms - OK I stretched it here to get 20!

 

[Duckjake]

At the NFL winter meetings last month, Chicago coach Lovie Smith said the Bears were a running team that had to play good defense, and no one disagreed. So what's a running team doing acquiring a quarterback who can throw the ball the length of Michigan Avenue? You tell me, because I think the Bears were better off with Orton.

Maybe the Bears brass has decided that 50 years of three yards and a cloud of dust is enough?

I have a theory that running teams/good defense/mediocre manage the game QB tend to be inconsistent. 13-3 one year 7-9 the next most likely because they have trouble playing catch up, the field is too small given the size of today's players for a team to successfully run all the time, and the NFL rules favor passing.

Look at the 3 teams that best fit the category, Bears, Bucs and Ravens over the last 5 seasons:

Bears: 5-11,11-5,13-3,7-9,9-7
Bucs: 5-11,11-5,4-12,9-7,9-7
Ravens: 9-7,6-10,13-3,5-11,11-5

 

[earthsci]

1) Unitas Yes
2) Montana Yes
3)Tarkenton No
4) Marino Yes
5)Young Yes
6) Anderson (yes look at stats) No
7)Fouts No
8)Favre No
9)Stauhbach Yes
10)Jurgenson No
11) Starr Yes
12) Manning Yes

Then there are those whom stats dont compare on paper but I would take
13) Warner Yes
14) Moon No
15)Tittle No
16)Brocklin No
17)Brady Yes
18) Dawson No
19) Layne No
20) Simms - OK I stretched it here to get 20! No

That's 9 I would say yes to. I would also take Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman over Elway.

 

[Mulli]

That's 9 I would say yes to. I would also take Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman over Elway.

I paid based on 9-10 being better.

 

[RonF]

You should name them. I am not an Elway guy, but I think the list would be interesting.

Brian St. Pierre