Clark Judge on the Bears trade

[dreamcastrocks]

You wont pay, and I know I am wasting my time because youll just lame up reasons why they arent but here ya are

1) Unitas
2) Montana
3)Tarkenton
4) Marino
5)Young
6) Anderson (yes look at stats)
7)Fouts
8)Favre
9)Stauhbach
10)Jurgenson
11) Starr
12) Manning

Then there are those whom stats dont compare on paper but I would take
13) Warner
14) Moon
15)Tittle
16)Brocklin
17)Brady
18) Dawson
19) Layne
20) Simms - OK I stretched it here to get 20!

Why won't I pay? I got 10M and nothing to do with it.

I'll give you Favre, Marino, Unitas, Young, and Montana.

Create a poll for each one. If they beat Elway, you'll get 100k each up to 20.

 

[Pariah]

It's all subjective, but here's what I think...

I count 6 that I think belong in the conversation, 3 thaat maybe belong in the conversation and 11 that I don't think belong in the conversation.

1) Unitas ... yup
2) Montana ... yup, but he was great with greatness around him
3)Tarkenton ... overrated
4) Marino ... yup, carried the team, but never made it back to the dance after his rookie year
5)Young ... Abso-friggin-lutley. I go back and forth between he and Elway as #1 on my list
6) Anderson (yes look at stats) ... no thanks
7)Fouts ... maybe
8)Favre ... yup. He cariied those offenses much like elway did. I think they're VERY similar players
9)Stauhbach ... no thanks
10)Jurgenson ... no thanks
11) Starr ... no thanks
12) Manning ... yup

Then there are those whom stats dont compare on paper but I would take
13) Warner ... no thanks
14) Moon ... maybe
15)Tittle ...maybe (VERY hard to compare to today's game, though)
16)Brocklin ... no thanks
17)Brady ... yup
18) Dawson ... no thanks
19) Layne ... no thanks
20) Simms - OK I stretched it here to get 20! yeah, you did.

 

[Shane]

Because Elway would will his team to win. The first 3 SBs they were there (and blown out) only because of Elway...the rest of the guys on those offenses were garbage. Yeah, those other guys may have better physical skills, but no one could drive down the field with the game on the line like Elway. No one could look his team in the eye and say "get on my back, I'll take us there" like Elway.

As for Molker comparing stats in the first three years, I'd tell you you're not comparing apples to apples. The Broncos were HORRIBLE before Elway got there, and without Elway would have still been horrible. Elway got his numbers without anoyone around him to help; Culter is doing it with one of the top offenses in the league....and still not winning. (BTW, winning may not be a QB stat, but it's what history will remmber them for).

Godd lord, I can't beleieve I've just typed all that. I think I need to go take a shower.

Ill take your Elway and raise you one Tom Brady.

 

[john h]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11583339

Interesting take.

My take is that the Bears have improved themselves significantly. Cutler may be a jerk but he can play QB rather well and is young. The Bears have been withou a good QB for some years. They have one now.

 

[Mulli]

My take is that the Bears have improved themselves significantly. Cutler may be a jerk but he can play QB rather well and is young. The Bears have been withou a good QB for some years. They have one now.

Agree. The basically gave up a first. The other first they gave up was not getting them a player like Cutler.

The third they gave up was the one they got for Berrian, right?

 

[CaptTurbo]

Why won't I pay? I got 10M and nothing to do with it.

I'll give you Favre, Marino, Unitas, Young, and Montana.

Create a poll for each one. If they beat Elway, you'll get 100k each up to 20.

Im not going to bother anyone with 20 polls lol

Plus mulli just gave me a million. Thanks Mulli!

Dream you know there are at least 5 more on that list that could easily beat Elway. Cmon Brady? Manning? Tarkenton? Warner? And I even forgot Aikman.

 

[Pariah]

Dream you know there are at least 5 more on that list that could easily beat Elway. Cmon Brady? Manning? Tarkenton? Warner? And I even forgot Aikman.

And you know that Elway belongs in that discussion. It's not a black and white answer, but it's patently ridiculous to claim there have been 20 better QBs in the NFL than Elway.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Im not going to bother anyone with 20 polls lol

Plus mulli just gave me a million. Thanks Mulli!

Dream you know there are at least 5 more on that list that could easily beat Elway. Cmon Brady? Manning? Tarkenton? Warner? And I even forgot Aikman.

If Brady's career ends without him playing another snap, he doesn't beat Elway (debatable). It would be like me saying that Terrell Davis is the best RB or Ralph Sampson was one of the best NBA players. He hasn't played enough in his career. Same with Manning.

I'd be interested in seeing if Tarkenton would beat Elway. Aikman probably wouldn't win here because was a Cowboy. My guess is that he wouldn't. I'll have to give you Warner only because he would win in a poll here, which was my requirement. (although IMO doesn't belong)

As of right now, the last consensus is somewhere between 8-9 and that is giving the benefit of the doubt with Manning and Brady. And even then, they are debatable, not easily better than Elway.

I'll stick to my agreement if you want to create the polls. I don't think that you'll get anyone else to agree with you that the 20 that you listed were all better than Elway though. Or if we come to some sort of agreement, I'll pay then.

PS. Damn you Mulli for stealing my thunder.

 

[CaptTurbo]

IIf anyone wants to make the polls Ill split the A$FN money with you. I cant make any. Just pick a few of the easier ones. Brady, Manning, Tark, Aikman, Warner

 

[Pariah]

Just pick a few of the easier ones. Brady, Manning, Tark, Aikman, Warner

What's with the man love for takenton? Were you a big That's Incredible fan or something?

 

[Shogun]

What's with the man love for takenton? Were you a big That's Incredible fan or something?

Fran retired with every passing and QB rushing record to his name and was a decade or so ahead of his time.

His man love is justified.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Dream Im on par to win 6 of these. Even though I got screwed on tark and aikman. Send over half a mil and Ill call it even and we can clean up.

 

[Pariah]

Dream Im on par to win 6 of these. Even though I got screwed on tark and aikman. Send over half a mil and Ill call it even and we can clean up.

He needs to pay the full amount. I get half.

 

[moklerman]

Because Elway would will his team to win. The first 3 SBs they were there (and blown out) only because of Elway...the rest of the guys on those offenses were garbage. Yeah, those other guys may have better physical skills, but no one could drive down the field with the game on the line like Elway. No one could look his team in the eye and say "get on my back, I'll take us there" like Elway.

As for Molker comparing stats in the first three years, I'd tell you you're not comparing apples to apples. The Broncos were HORRIBLE before Elway got there, and without Elway would have still been horrible. Elway got his numbers without anoyone around him to help; Culter is doing it with one of the top offenses in the league....and still not winning. (BTW, winning may not be a QB stat, but it's what history will remmber them for).

Godd lord, I can't beleieve I've just typed all that. I think I need to go take a shower.

Sammie Winder(pro-bowl RB), Steve Watson(1,000+ WR, pro bowler, led the league in receiving TD), a really good defense(we're talking '83-'86 right now) littered with HOF and all-pro's but it was all Elway.

While we're spinning the legend of Elway being great every second he was on a football field let's also conveniently forget that the Broncos were 12-2, 10-6, 10-6, 8-8, 10-6 before the strike in '82. They weren't a bad team at all and Elway didn't elevate them to anywhere they hadn't gone before with Craig Morton.

Let's also completely write Dan Reeves out of the equation. It's not like he was a good coach or anything.

And how is Cutler not part of one of the top offenses in the league when he didn't have a running back that rushed for more than 400 yards last year? Royal's a rookie and looks pretty good but he faded down the stretch and Marshall's constantly getting suspended. I guess it's all Schelffler. Or maybe Darrel Jackson. Brandon Stokely? Yeah, that offense is just loaded and Cutler's riding their coat tails.

You can say that Elway didn't have any help but Watson put up 1,170 yards and 7 TD's in '84. That was down from his numbers with Craig Morton at QB but Elway's will...it was magical.

Elway wasn't even going to go to the HOF until Terrel Davis came in and saved his career. If not for Marty Schottenheimer being the biggest choke artist of all time, Elway wouldn't even have those two comebacks vs. Cleveland to hang his career on. It took Elway 10 years in the league to become a well rounded QB. Cutler's far ahead of him in that regard.

But it's true that this argument isn't apples to apples because Cutler's never had the luxury of a top defense to fall back on. Or a running game. But he has a really good WR. That's automatic good offense. Just ask the Lions and Calvin Johnson.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Dream Im on par to win 6 of these. Even though I got screwed on tark and aikman. Send over half a mil and Ill call it even and we can clean up.

You needed to come up with more than 5. So far you have 8. Which means at the moment I owe you $300k /2 with Pariah getting the other half. There are a couple out there that are still close.

edit, I'll give you whomever is leading right now as well.

reedit.

You got 9 total. (don't agree with them all but whatever)

Marino
Brady
Unitas
Young
Warner
Montana
Staubach
Manning
Starr.

200k for each of you, + the 5% fee.

 

[Pariah]

Sammie Winder(pro-bowl RB), Steve Watson(1,000+ WR, pro bowler, led the league in receiving TD), a really good defense(we're talking '83-'86 right now) littered with HOF and all-pro's but it was all Elway.

Sammy Winder nd Steve Watson are the guys you're citing as examples of the talent around Elway? oooookay.

And--even though I intentionally didn't mention the defenses because I know they were pretty good-- who are the HoFers on those defenses?

And how is Cutler not part of one of the top offenses in the league when he didn't have a running back that rushed for more than 400 yards last year? Royal's a rookie and looks pretty good but he faded down the stretch and Marshall's constantly getting suspended. I guess it's all Schelffler. Or maybe Darrel Jackson. Brandon Stokely? Yeah, that offense is just loaded and Cutler's riding their coat tails.

He IS part of that offense, obviously. But you also make it sound like Marshall didn't miss significant time (he didn't...especially not down the stretch; didn't he miss two games at the start of the year?), Royal was REALLY good, Scheffler and Graham are great pass catching TEs and Stokely is one of the best slot receivers in the league. No RB rushed for more than 400 yards because they kept getting hurt, IIRC they had 6 different starting RBs during the season. That's not an indictment of the talent of the RBs, that the 5th or 6th guy on the depth chart was able to get 400 in very limited action is a testament to the offense as a whole. That offense IS stacked.

I'll stick to my assertions that Cutler is working with more to get his numbers (numbers that you cited).

Elway wasn't even going to go to the HOF until Terrel Davis came in and saved his career.

That's your opinion. Mine differs. There's not much else to discuss on this piece of conjecture.

But it's true that this argument isn't apples to apples because Cutler's never had the luxury of a top defense to fall back on. Or a running game. But he has a really good WR. That's automatic good offense. Just ask the Lions and Calvin Johnson.

Not sure where you're going with this one and how the defense plays into Elway's offensive numbers. Elway put up numbers basically by himself (much the way Favre did). Cutler is putting up numbers with some pretty incredible weapons at his disposal, a very good offensive line ... and to your point, without a defense (meaning they HAVE to put up big points to have a chance).

 

[Pariah]

...and, BTW Molker, why so angry?

 

[moklerman]

Sammy Winder nd Steve Watson are the guys you're citing as examples of the talent around Elway? oooookay.

Pro-bowlers don't count? Both of these guys were very good players.

And--even though I intentionally didn't mention the defenses because I know they were pretty good-- who are the HoFers on those defenses?

I was thinking of Mecklenberg and Gradishar. I guess they haven't made it in but I'm pretty sure they have been nominated. Orange Crush was still a great unit during the 70's and 80's.

Royal was REALLY good, Scheffler and Graham are great pass catching TEs and Stokely is one of the best slot receivers in the league.

Okay, you're poo-poo'ing Winder and Watson and talking up these guys? There are core players and complimentary players. Watson and Winder were the former, and pro bowlers, Scheffler, Graham and Stokely are the latter.

That's your opinion. Mine differs.

It isn't just my opinion. The numbers and many writers agreed. If he had retired after '96 no way he's the legend that he is now. If he had retired at that time he would have finished with fewer TD's, more interceptions and and a lower rating than his contemporary Dave Krieg.

Not sure where you're going with this one and how the defense plays into Elway's offensive numbers.

See Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, etc. A good defense will relieve a lot of pressure on the QB. Cutler hasn't had that and has outperformed Elway who did.

Elway put up numbers basically by himself

That's simply not true.

Cutler is putting up numbers with some pretty incredible weapons at his disposal

I'll give you Brandon Marshall, even though he's only marginally better statistically than Watson was('81 & '83) at this point but weapon(s)? If you're arguing that Graham or their insurance salesman/bartender/bouncer caliber RB's last year are incredible weapons then we'll have to just see things differently.

...and, BTW Molker, why so angry?

Not angry at all.

 

[CaptTurbo]

What happened to Manning I thought he was way ahead?

You got off easy. Not many peopel know that TArkenton was the ultimate in his time. No one even close. He advanced the game like no one else ever did. There were a few others that should have been but to each his own.

 

[Pariah]

See Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, etc. A good defense will relieve a lot of pressure on the QB. Cutler hasn't had that and has outperformed Elway who did.

You were talking about offensive stats. A good defense does not help a passer's numbers, a good defense helps you win games and will inflate a RBs numbers.

 

[moklerman]

A good defense does not help a passer's numbers,

I disagree. A good defense will allow a QB to grow and progress where a bad defense will cost the team wins and ultimately, as we all know, the responsibility is put on the QB for the team's struggles eventually.

Most young QB's who are put on a bad defensive team get chewed up, spit out and then fade away. If a young QB comes in and does well while the rest of the team is struggling, that's a feather in his cap for playing well despite no running game and/or defense.

 

[Mainstreet]

Fran retired with every passing and QB rushing record to his name and was a decade or so ahead of his time.

Also Fran Tarkenton was one of the most elusive and mobile quarterbacks that I can remember.

 

[Pariah]

I disagree. A good defense will allow a QB to grow and progress where a bad defense will cost the team wins and ultimately, as we all know, the responsibility is put on the QB for the team's struggles eventually.

Most young QB's who are put on a bad defensive team get chewed up, spit out and then fade away. If a young QB comes in and does well while the rest of the team is struggling, that's a feather in his cap for playing well despite no running game and/or defense.

That may well be, but it doesn't help a QB's stats in the now (for future development, maybe). It would help the team win, but not inflate Cutler's numbers--because they have no defense Cutler is forced to pass a lot more.

And, don't get me wrong, I think Cutler is a great talent (I'm not sure if you were around, but I was big into drafting him and took a lot of flack for it). But he has a long way to go before he should open his mouth and spits out comparisons to Elway.

 

[moklerman]

Originally Posted by swd1974

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1) Unitas ... yup-Still the definition of a QB.
2) Montana ... yup, but he was great with greatness around him-true, but he helped invent that greatness and was pretty darned good in KC too. Gold standard for "winner".
3)Tarkenton ... overrated-Wrong. Tarkenton was the career leader in yards and TD's when he retired and is still arguably the greatest scrambling QB of all time. 9 pro bowls and 3 Super Bowls not to mention a gold jacket.
4) Marino ... yup, carried the team, but never made it back to the dance after his rookie year-Barry Sanders is the only guy that had it worse in terms of his own greatness and his team's lack of greatness by comparison. Marino should have gone to Pittsburgh for a year or two just to see what would have happened with a good defense and running game. Too bad his legs were shot.
5)Young ... Abso-friggin-lutley. I go back and forth between he and Elway as #1 on my list-We're on two different planets. Elway and Young are both guys who are terribly overrated in my book.
6) Anderson (yes look at stats) ... no thanks-Anderson was indeed a good QB but no one will ever listen to a comparison to Elway even though it could be made if you took the actual names out and just looked at what each had to work with and what each produced.
7)Fouts ... maybe-I'd take Fouts every day of the week over Elway.
8)Favre ... yup. He cariied those offenses much like elway did. I think they're VERY similar players -Favre certainly had a nice stretch of production but let's not forget that Reggie White was the reason the Packers won the Super Bowl. Favre owes Sanders the other half of the MVP too. No way that should have been split.
9)Stauhbach ... no thanks-"Staubach". The guy was arguably the best QB of the '70's, served in the Navy before becoming a pro and was the definition of class. Elway doesn't compare.
10)Jurgenson ... no thanks-good but not nearly as good as Elway.
11) Starr ... no thanks-the era's are probably too different to compare but Starr was a 5 time champion. Respect is due and Elway loses this comparison.
12) Manning ... yup-Isn't it funny that the Colts had Unitas define the position and then wind up with Manning who is re-defining it. Elway isn't even in the same class as Peyton.

Then there are those whom stats dont compare on paper but I would take
13) Warner ... no thanks-Elway was much more durable but his numbers don't even come close to Warner's and to compare their post season resume's is a joke.
14) Moon ... maybe-Moon was in the pro-bowl and had a better year at 41 than Elway ever had. Give Moon a good defense and 2,000 yard rusher and he'd be in the Super Bowl too. If Moon had been white, he'd be mentioned along with Marino in terms of ability and talent.
15)Tittle ...maybe (VERY hard to compare to today's game, though)-Too far back and I just don't know enough about him to make a choice.
16)Brocklin ... no thanks-Way too far back but Van Brocklin was a bad ass. They style of play the Rams had was such a mis-match and the league was barely integrated at that point that you can't really look at his numbers. His single game passing record still holds though and it's been 50+ years.
17)Brady ... yup-One can never argue with the championships but Brady is just Steve Young V.2.0 IMO. Good QB that benefits far too much from the talent around him and being the darlings of the league.
18) Dawson ... no thanks-Len Dawson was a stud. He is by far better than Elway and had it not been for his bad knees he would be atop the pantheon of NFL QB's. Even with those bad knees he was pretty amazing.
19) Layne ... no thanks-too far back. Too drunk.
20) Simms - OK I stretched it here to get 20! yeah, you did. -No way. Simms was a great caretaker but his team's defenses were far too dominant to give him too much credit.

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I would also take Jim Kelly over Elway even though I was never a big fan of his.

As others have mentioned, Bradshaw is probably better as well.

Stabler wasn't even mentioned which I find interesting. I probably wouldn't consider him better than Elway but he should at least get a vote.

Otto Graham is probably too far back to really compare but he's higher on the QB tree than Elway as well.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I personally think Cutler has way too big of an ego for such a young player and like another poster said, a hot head which is not the best scenario for being a leader of your team if your the QB. Having a strong arm helps, Elway and Marino had strong arms but they also were cool under pressure and did not have such an ego at a young age. If a strong arm was an indication...the Raiders would have one of the best QBs in the NFL...but I will say this...if one looks at the Bears recent history with the QB position, Cutler is the best QB they had in a while.