Clark Judge on the Bears trade

[moklerman]

Elway and Marino had strong arms but they also were cool under pressure and did not have such an ego at a young age.

Are we talking about "Dan" Marino and "John" Elway? I don't think you could fit both of their ego's in an open air stadium.

 

[Pariah]

Elway and Marino had strong arms but they also were cool under pressure and did not have such an ego at a young age.

These guys were/are both really full of themselves. Elway is and always has been a class-a jerk.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I would also take Jim Kelly over Elway even though I was never a big fan of his.

As others have mentioned, Bradshaw is probably better as well.

Stabler wasn't even mentioned which I find interesting. I probably wouldn't consider him better than Elway but he should at least get a vote.

Otto Graham is probably too far back to really compare but he's higher on the QB tree than Elway as well.

OK, you've made some effort to describe why you believe Elway is overrated, however, please tell me why you think the same of Young??

 

[Chopper0080]

I don't know where to even start with my argument. To not have Elway in the top 5 quarterbacks of all time is ridiculous. You don't have to like the guy to appreciate, not only his rare physical skills, but also his ability to elevate the play of teammates around him. Furthermore, I have never seen an individual take over the end of a game like Elway did. He scored at the end of games to win them like Jordan did for the Bulls. Elway had his flaws but there might not be a quarterback in history that I would rather have if I was behind in the fourth quarter with less than 3 minutes in the game.

Top 5 All Time
1-Johnny Unitas
2-Joe Montana
3-John Elway
4-Dan Marino (The only QB in the top 5 that didn't win a championship)
5-Terry Bradshaw

5b-Peyton Manning: When it is all said and done, he could be the best. We will see.

 

[moklerman]

OK, you've made some effort to describe why you believe Elway is overrated, however, please tell me why you think the same of Young??

First, I think he's overrated because he continually focused on his stat's. I'll never forget the game where he kept throwing little dunkers to get his completion % and qb rating high enough to pass Montana's single season record at the time. The exact play he passed him, he came out. Not drive, not quarter, the very play.

Second, the year after he was horrible in Tampa Bay, DeBerb put up a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio for the Buccaneers. It's true that the team was horrible but if Young was as great as advertised he could have at least replicated what DeBerg did. I realize Young was an NFL rookie at the time but he'd been playing in the USFL so he wasn't inexperienced. Other USFL rookies came in and produced at a good level so if Young was "great", I think he could have done better in Tampa Bay.

It's also hard to feel he was too great when guys like Bono, Grbac and Druckenmiller could come in and put up gaudy numbers in the same offense. SF played with a real advantage since it took many teams many years to catch up to the WCO that they ran and let's not forget that those teams were playing with a stacked deck in terms of the salary cap.

Young had a great year in 1994 but other than that, his post season career is pretty pedestrian. He never seemed to show up big in the big games and although it's unfair to compare him to Montana, he still underacheived with those great 49er teams. Continually had the #2 defense backing him up and the GOAT on offense. I guess it's just glaring to me that he could be a 105 rated qb during the regular season and drop down to 80 in the playoffs for most of his career.

I think he's overrated because I don't think what he accomplished was anything that many other QB's couldn't have done with that team and I think he wasn't clutch like a great QB should be. Very McNabb-like. Pretty numbers during the regular season but never too good in the post season. Not to mention both had great defenses and good running games backing them up.

 

[moklerman]

Top 5 All Time
1-Johnny Unitas
2-Joe Montana
3-John Elway
4-Dan Marino (The only QB in the top 5 that didn't win a championship)
5-Terry Bradshaw

5b-Peyton Manning: When it is all said and done, he could be the best. We will see.

Favre's not even in the top 6 and Elway's better than Marino and Peyton?

 

[Pariah]

Elway's better than Marino and Peyton?

Yes.

 

[moklerman]

Yes.

It's gotta be man-love. I wouldn't even consider taking Elway ahead of Manning and/or Marino if I was starting a team. He's not even in that conversation.

 

[Pariah]

It's gotta be man-love. I wouldn't even consider taking Elway ahead of Manning and/or Marino if I was starting a team. He's not even in that conversation.

No, it's just a difference of opinion. As I've stated before I don't even like him and I hate the Broncos.

 

[Chopper0080]

"Favre's not even in the top 6 and Elway's better than Marino and Peyton?"

I can't put Favre in the top group because he thrown the most picks in NFL history. That is just a stat that takes him out of the top tier for me.

As far as comparing Elway to Manning and Marino. One, Elway was twice the athlete that either one was. Not only could he beat you with his arm, but he could extend and create plays that neither Manning, nor Marino could due to a lack of mobility. Two, Elway went to more Super Bowls, five, than Marino and Manning combined, two. In fact, Elway won as many Super Bowls as the other two played in combined.

 

[ARZCardinals]

There's a reason teams don't go after Franchised players...they have to give up a 1st and a 3rd.

Bears gave up 2 first round picks, a 3rd AND their starting QB.

This trade is up in the air...and will be looked back at MANY MANY TIMES.

 

[moklerman]

"Favre's not even in the top 6 and Elway's better than Marino and Peyton?"

I can't put Favre in the top group because he thrown the most picks in NFL history. That is just a stat that takes him out of the top tier for me. Favre's also thrown about 1,000 more passes than the second guy on the list of all-time attempts(Marino). You need to look at interception %. Favre's career mark of 3.3% is perfectly respectable especially considering how much he threw the ball and what type of approach he took to the game. By comparison, Elway's was 3.1%.

As far as comparing Elway to Manning and Marino. One, Elway was twice the athlete that either one was. Not only could he beat you with his arm, but he could extend and create plays that neither Manning, nor Marino could due to a lack of mobility. Two, Elway went to more Super Bowls, five, than Marino and Manning combined, two. In fact, Elway won as many Super Bowls as the other two played in combined. Ah, my favorite term. Elway won those Super Bowls, huh? I think his whole post season career is overshadowed by one good game vs. Cleveland. Their first run at the Super Bowl he had a 53, 74 and one of his better Super Bowls 83 rating.

The next year, I would actually say that the Broncos were riding Elways shoulders thourgh the playoffs as he did quite well in getting to the Super Bowl. He put up a 36 rating once he got there though.

The next time they went, the same thing happened. He did pretty well in getting to the Super Bowl(beating Cleveland for the third time to get to the Super Bowl(!)) then choked it in the Super Bowl with a 38 rating.

Next time the Broncos went deep in the playoffs he put up a 49 rating vs. Buffalo in the AFC Championship and they lost.

Next time he had a couple pretty good games of 80+ to get to the Super Bowl but then put up a 51 vs. Green Bay. Yeah, Elway won that game, not Terrel Davis.

Then his last Super Bowl he had a big game in the post season vs. a team not named the Cleveland Browns with a 99 rating. Of course, the Broncos were riding Terrel Davis hard by that time and Elway didn't even have 200 yards passing in each of the playoff games leading to the Super Bowl. Hell, Bubby Brister had 4 starts that year and put up better numbers than Elway. It would have been very interesting to see what would have happened if Minnesota had reached the Super Bowl rather than choking against the fluke-Falcons.

Elway was certainly a good QB but he didn't become a well rounded QB until late in his career. For most of his career he didn't compare to Peyton or Marino. Saying "he" won two Super Bowls is just wrong. That leads us right into the argument of Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson being better than Marino as well. When Elway was in Marino's or Manning's position of having the team's success ride on his right arm, his teams got blown out in some of the worst Super Bowls ever and only got there because Denver got to face the perennial choking Browns in the AFC Championship each time.

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[Duckjake]

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You can bring up all the obscure #s you want but they don't erase 16 years in the NFL with only one losing record as a starter after Elway's rookie season.

Compare that to Warner whose record as a starter from 2002-2007 was 13-29

 

[moklerman]

Compare that to Warner whose record as a starter from 2002-2007 was 13-29

So you're saying Kordell Stewart was a really good QB? He was 13-3 one year for the Steelers. Or Marc Bulger? His record was pretty impressive there for a while. How about Eli? His winning % is better than Marino's and he's won the Super Bowl. He's better than Marino was, right? Forget the individual numbers and the circumstances. Team wins and championships are all that matter, right? Rex Grossman and Brad Johnson are better than Joe Namath?

 

[Chopper0080]

You make valid arguments in regards to Elway's performance in Superbowls, even though I don't recall saying that he won them single handedly. However, in regards to your statement, I just can't get the image of Elway jumping into the end zone against Green Bay out of my mind.

I believe that it is interesting that when you speak about Elway in Super Bowls, you emphasize his play and how he did not win them all by himself. However, you fail to acknowledge that while he may have gone to 5 Super Bowls, won 2 of them, and did not necessarily play his best, Elway still took his team to 5 Super Bowls while Marino could only elevate the play of his team once. That does not speak well of Marino's ability to lead a team or elevate a team, which happens to be an important characteristic of a top level QB.

It is also noteworthy that as you emphasize Terrell Davis's rushing performance in the Broncos' 1997 Super Bowl win, you fail to acknowledge Dominic Rhodes performance in the Colts' 2006 Super Bowl win. He only had the 11th highest rushing yardage total by a running back in Super Bowl history. But, I am sure that it had nothing to do with Peyton Manning winning that championship.

You can hate on Elway all you want, but the facts are that he was one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play the game. The career stats are there. The fourth quarter comebacks are there. The Super Bowl appearances are there. And, most importantly, the Super Bowl wins are there.

 

[nashman]

Peyton > Elway

 

[Duckjake]

So you're saying Kordell Stewart was a really good QB? He was 13-3 one year for the Steelers. Or Marc Bulger? His record was pretty impressive there for a while. How about Eli? His winning % is better than Marino's and he's won the Super Bowl. He's better than Marino was, right? Forget the individual numbers and the circumstances. Team wins and championships are all that matter, right? Rex Grossman and Brad Johnson are better than Joe Namath?

Winning one year or even for 2-3 is nowhere near comparable to winning consistently over 16 years so your examples are meaningless.

 

[moklerman]

Winning one year or even for 2-3 is nowhere near comparable to winning consistently over 16 years so your examples are meaningless.

I'm glad you agree with me. I was trying to illustrate how meaningless your Warner reference was. I'm not even sure why you thought to bring Warner into the conversation.

By the way, "Elway" was 5-11 in '90 and 7-9 in '94 and 8-8 three times. Does that mean he wasn't trying as hard those years or that he was choosing to enforce his well less than normal? Whichever it is, it was more than "only one losing year".

 

[Pariah]

One point on the superbowls: I don't think any one is claiming Elway won those two superbowls on his own. And, I don't think it's fair to him to downplay the achievement of getting his team to the first three without a guy like TD...despite Elway's lackluster performance in those games.

Fact is, Elway got to 5 superbowls and won two. That's damned impressive...especially since in the first three his the best of his surrounding cast were Sammy Winder and Steve Watson (despite probowl appearances, neither were game-changers).

 

[chickenhead]

Interesting stuff. I think the Broncos win this trade hands-down because they were not dealing from a position of strength and managed to get a tremendous return.

Though the Bears win vs. all the other interested teams, because a franchise QBs are almost never on the trading block.

I think the Judge article seems a bit vindictive, but his major point is valid. Of the last few Broncos QBs that could have gone to Denver, in a weird way I think Plummer may have been the best fit. Maybe I'm just remembering McMahon's rushing TD against the Rams in the '85 playoffs...but part of me thinks he could have been their Roethlisberger.

Edit: McMahon's run was in '86, of course, after the '85 Bears season.

 

[moklerman]

I believe that it is interesting that when you speak about Elway in Super Bowls, you emphasize his play and how he did not win them all by himself.

My long path to a point was to try and illustrate that he wasn't a particularly good big game QB. Unless he was playing Cleveland. If one holds Cleveland in high regard then Elway's accomplishments would shine brighter overall than they do for me.

Elway still took his team to 5 Super Bowls while Marino could only elevate the play of his team once.

But it wasn't because Elway was playing better than Marino it was because he had a better running game and defense most, if not all of the time.

And I don't give Marino a free pass on his post season career. That's why he's not #1 overall in my book. But I do take into consideration that he had less to work with. As an example, he put up 262 yards, 3 TD and 0 INT vs. SD in '94...and lost. Elway put up 123 yards, 0 TD and 1 INT and won a Super Bowl.

Marino's post season problem was mostly that he had to continually face the Bills when they were so dominant. Again, Elway got to deal with Cleveland by comparison.

It is also noteworthy that as you emphasize Terrell Davis's rushing performance in the Broncos' 1997 Super Bowl win, you fail to acknowledge Dominic Rhodes performance in the Colts' 2006 Super Bowl win.

I'm not saying that a QB shouldn't get credit for winning if his RB has a good game or does well but let's be honest, here. Elway was nothing more than a Trent Dilfer in that Super Bowl (23 pass attempts, 123 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT).

That particular season is not a good one to point to when arguing Elway's greatness. As I've said before, Bubby Brister outperformed Elway that year in his 4 starts and Elway once again disappeared during the Super Bowl. Elway had guys like Sammy Winder and Terrel Davis during his Super Bowl runs. Wanna take a wild guess who the leading rusher for Miami in '84 was when Marino got to the Super Bowl? Winder may not have been the greatest back there ever was but he did put up almost 800 yards rushing and 14 total TD's when Denver went to the Super Bowl in '86.

Back to your point, let's not use Dominic Rhodes as any kind of comparison to Terrel Davis. Rhodes had whatever kind of game he had because the defense was intent and forced to try and stop Peyton. Terrel Davis kicked ass and took names against a pretty good Green Bay defense that was focused on stopping him and Elway still put up sucky numbers.

You can hate on Elway all you want, but the facts are that he was one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play the game.

It's true that I think Elway is overrated but this conversation is about him being #2 or #3 all time. I don't think there's much of a case for that.

1987 is a perfect example of Elway's greatness for those arguing his side of things. He wasn't even top 10 in completion %, TD % or passer rating yet he won the MVP. Montana that year led the league in completion %, TD%, passer rating and led the league in TD passes in only 11 games. He had 31 TD's in 11 games and was 10-1 during that stretch. But Elway magically got the Broncos to win while he was playing mediocre football.

That's my biggest problem with a guy like Elway. Any time an argument starts and ends with having to ignore the stat's it's going to be hard to get me to believe he was one of the best overall. I agree that the "it" factor and intangibles are a big part of a great QB but the truly great one's had the numbers to go along with "it". Elway somehow imposing the will to win on his teammates any more than Manning or Marino did for their teams doesn't hold water. All three are great leaders and even if Elway might have been a tiny slice better as a leader(how to measure that I'm not sure), it wasn't enough of a gap to catapult him past guys who are also great leaders in addition to statistically blowing him away.

 

[Duckjake]

I'm glad you agree with me. I was trying to illustrate how meaningless your Warner reference was. I'm not even sure why you thought to bring Warner into the conversation.

By the way, "Elway" was 5-11 in '90 and 7-9 in '94 and 8-8 three times. Does that mean he wasn't trying as hard those years or that he was choosing to enforce his well less than normal? Whichever it is, it was more than "only one losing year".

Warner's record was over 6 years not 1 or 2 or 3 and was used as an example of how difficult it is even for a top QB to go that long without losing.

If you will remember I stated that Elway only had one losing record after his rookie season. In 1994 Elway was 7-7. Hugh Millen took the other two losses as starter.

Here are some of the top QBs:

Farve 1 losing record in 17 years
Marino 2 in 17 years
Kelly 3 in 11 years
PManning 2-11 years
Bradshaw 2-14
Montana 3-14

 

[moklerman]

Warner's record was over 6 years not 1 or 2 or 3 and was used as an example of how difficult it is even for a top QB to go that long without losing.

Warner is a bad example to use for just about any comparison to other QB's. His path and circumstances really don't compare to any other QB. Top QB's don't usually get shuffled around like he did or figure out a solution to a chronic injury or go to three teams in three years, etc.

Elway had his up's and down's just like every other QB though. Some years he was in the playoffs some years he wasn't. Other than this latest fiasco with Cutler and Shannahan, Denver has been much like Pittsburgh in that it doesn't make rasch decisions or constantly change it's infrastructure. It only stands to reason that those teams wouldn't have huge spikes in record due to rebuilding.

When his teams went though changes in personnel that didn't work, his numbers and record suffered just like any other mortal QB. Only 1 "non-losing" year after his rookie season can also be phrased 4 seasons his teams didn't have a winning record.

 

[Duckjake]

When his teams went though changes in personnel that didn't work, his numbers and record suffered just like any other mortal QB. Only 1 "non-losing" year after his rookie season can also be phrased 4 seasons his teams didn't have a winning record.

Even that is a tremendous accomplishment. Only 4 times his team didn't have a winning record in 15 years. He had more AFC Championships,5, than non-winning seasons.

 

[moklerman]

I just don't see how it's a reflection of Elway as much as it's a reflection of the Broncos coaching/management. You can say the same thing about McNabb. Heck Stan Humphries only had 1 losing season in 10 years and went to just as many championship games as he had losing seasons. Montana had 3 in 15 and went to 7 championship games. Heck, Staubach never had a losing season and went to 6 championship games. Stabler had more. The list goes on and on. It's not that unique.