Clark Judge on the Bears trade

[binkar]

I just read the article and I agree with just about everything he says in their. I think the Bears made a HUGE mistake making that deal. I think Cutler is very talented and athletic, but I think the Bears took a few steps backwards making this deal.

 

[Duckjake]

I just don't see how it's a reflection of Elway as much as it's a reflection of the Broncos coaching/management. You can say the same thing about McNabb. Heck Stan Humphries only had 1 losing season in 10 years and went to just as many championship games as he had losing seasons. Montana had 3 in 15 and went to 7 championship games. Heck, Staubach never had a losing season and went to 6 championship games. Stabler had more. The list goes on and on. It's not that unique.

That's really amazing considering Humprhies only played 8 seasons and had no starts as a rookie.

You can't say the same thing about McNabb, though I think he has put up some terrific results, because he didn't WIN 5 NFC Championships. He only has one.

The rest of the guys you mentioned I consider to be among the best all-time NFL QBs.

I want to see the "on and on" part of your list. QBs with more Conference Championship game wins than non winning seasons, a Super Bowl win, and a non-losing record % as a starter of at least 80% over a minimum of 11 NFL seasons. I think you can get all the information you need from the NFL Hall of Fame.

 

[moklerman]

I want to see the "on and on" part of your list. QBs with more Conference Championship game wins than non winning seasons, a Super Bowl win, and a non-losing record % as a starter of at least 80% over a minimum of 11 NFL seasons. I think you can get all the information you need from the NFL Hall of Fame.

You're missing the point. You stated this unusual stat as something special by Elway but there are other guys who've done the same type of thing.

This isn't even an accepted or known measuring stick for QB's so I'll let you compile a list of ALL the QB's who went to more championship games than had losing seasons or whatever. The criteria is becoming far too convoluted to try and shoe-horn guys into it.

If one has to look this hard for something unique to Elway to try and quantify his greatness as the #2 QB of all time I think it speaks more to the idea that he is not. Like I said, if the numbers have to be thrown out of the conversation to make the argument then I don't think there is an argument. Namath fits into that category as an extreme example. A legend to be sure but no one thinks he's actually the better QB among other elite QB's.

In Elway's time they had 9 top-10 defenses, 2 pro-bowl RB's, 3 pro-bowl WR's, a pro-bowl TE and more. He wasn't doing it all alone as has been suggested and without the "he elevates his team by sheer force of will" contention Elway isn't anywhere close to #2 or #3 all-time.

 

[Pariah]

In Elway's time they had 9 top-10 defenses, 2 pro-bowl RB's, 3 pro-bowl WR's, a pro-bowl TE and more. He wasn't doing it all alone as has been suggested and without the "he elevates his team by sheer force of will" contention Elway isn't anywhere close to #2 or #3 all-time.

All I can say is that it's pretty clear you didn't watch many bronco games in the 80's and early 90's.

Sammy Winder may have made it to the pro-bowl, but he was not a special player. Watson was reliable, but he was hardly a difference maker without a legendary QB throwing his the ball.

Most of the guys you cite as being probowlers were guys on the superbowl winning teams that everyone is recognizing are TEAM wins. Elway had a LOT of help winning those games, but he had hardly any help propelling his offenses to championship levels before those guys (Smith, McCafferty, Sharpe, Davis) were on the team.

 

[moklerman]

All I can say is that it's pretty clear you didn't watch many bronco games in the 80's and early 90's.

It's true I wasn't a follower of the Broncos but the Broncos games I did watch with Elway left absolutely no impression. I never understood why he was so revered.

Sammy Winder may have made it to the pro-bowl, but he was not a special player. Watson was reliable, but he was hardly a difference maker without a legendary QB throwing his the ball.

I never said he was special but the pro-bowl counts for something doesn't it? Especially compared to what Marino had which is what I was referencing originally I think. It certainly refutes the idea that Elway had no help on offense. And Watson went to the pro-bowl with Morton at QB in '81. He replicated his pro-bowl numbers in '83, '84 and started to fade in '85. But again, he was a good receiver which contradicts the "no help" mantra preached by Elway defenders. He took over a team that was a perennial 10 win, playoff, Super Bowl team. Craig Morton got them to the Super Bowl in '77 and the playoffs in '78 & '79 and they had 10 wins in '81. After the strike shortened year, Elway came in and continued that string. Not that Morton was as good as Elway but that the team was a pretty good team and Elway benefitted from that more than people like to realize.

And my argument has never been that Elway isn't one of the all-time QB's, just that he doesn't belong at #2 or #3 overall. Top 10 I could live with but there are way too many guys that I would put ahead of him to think that only Unitas should be considered better on the all-time board.

 

[Pariah]

It certainly refutes the idea that Elway had no help on offense.

No, it doesn't.

Show me another QB that went to three superbowls with less talent around him on offense. When you're pointing to Sammy Winder and Steve Watson as evidence that he didn't take those offenses to Championships on his back, I think you're fighting an uphill battle.

 

[Duckjake]

You're missing the point. You stated this unusual stat as something special by Elway but there are other guys who've done the same type of thing.

No you are missing the point.

What Elway did compiling only 4 non winning records as a starter over 15 years is special. Even more special is also winning 5 Conference Championships. You don't want to list the other guys because it is a who's who of NFL QBs and will ruin your argument that anyone could do it.

 

[moklerman]

Show me another QB that went to three superbowls with less talent around him on offense. When you're pointing to Sammy Winder and Steve Watson as evidence that he didn't take those offenses to Championships on his back, I think you're fighting an uphill battle.

I already showed you Craig Morton taking the same solid offense to the Super Bowl because of the really good defense. The Broncos were a good team before Elway got there and continued to be one while he was there. They didn't win it all until Terrel Davis got there.

Completely disregarding good players like Watson and Winder, which are just two examples from Elway's first three years because that talk started with Cutler's first three years by comparison, just shows that Elway has been deified in your eyes.

In '86, when Elway went to his first Super Bowl he wasn't in the top 10 in passer rating but Winder was 4th in total TD's that year.

In '87, Elway wasn't top 10 in passer rating but Vance Johnson and Sammy Winder both were top 10 in TD's at WR and RB.

In '89, Elway wasn't in the top 10 of passer rating or TD's but Bobby Humphrey was 8th in rushing yards and 10th in rushing TD's and their defense was #1 overall.

Nothing points to Elway carrying the team. He was a good QB on a good team that was good across the board but not great at any one spot. They were a good "team" and that's why they were always around 10 wins and always in the playoffs.

 

[moklerman]

What Elway did compiling only 4 non winning records as a starter over 15 years is special. Even more special is also winning 5 Conference Championships. You don't want to list the other guys because it is a who's who of NFL QBs and will ruin your argument that anyone could do it.

How is it special when other guys have done it? 4 non winning seasons out of 16 is 25% of the time isn't it? How is it special that his teams were "usually" good. Not always but usually. Staubach's and Montana's are better by comparison and Staubach's is more unique.

All this pointing to the team's record during a certain span does is illustrate to me that he inherited a good team and kept it rolling while guys like Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, etc. had to help build their team's up. When I think of Elway's situation I'm reminded of Roethlisberger. A good QB with a good team around him that doesn't usually light it up statistically but is a "winner".

Maybe that's a good example to help illustrate what I think you guys are saying about Elway. Think of Roethlisberger's first Super Bowl. When you boil it all down, he's 2-0 as a Super Bowl QB, right? But what did he do in that game that warrants calling it "his" win? Elway was on some good teams and got far in the post season with "goodness" around him. When he got "greatness" in Davis, the Broncos won it all. But that means Davis was great enough to get them over the top. Not Elway. He was good but "greatness" would have done more.

 

[Duckjake]

How is it special when other guys have done it? 4 non winning seasons out of 16 is 25% of the time isn't it? How is it special that his teams were "usually" good. Not always but usually. Staubach's and Montana's are better by comparison and Staubach's is more unique.

All this pointing to the team's record during a certain span does is illustrate to me that he inherited a good team and kept it rolling while guys like Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, etc. had to help build their team's up. When I think of Elway's situation I'm reminded of Roethlisberger. A good QB with a good team around him that doesn't usually light it up statistically but is a "winner".

Maybe that's a good example to help illustrate what I think you guys are saying about Elway. Think of Roethlisberger's first Super Bowl. When you boil it all down, he's 2-0 as a Super Bowl QB, right? But what did he do in that game that warrants calling it "his" win? Elway was on some good teams and got far in the post season with "goodness" around him. When he got "greatness" in Davis, the Broncos won it all. But that means Davis was great enough to get them over the top. Not Elway. He was good but "greatness" would have done more.

Its special because the only other guys to put up comparable stats are the elite Quarterbacks of NFL history. Is rushing for 2000 yards in a season less special because more than one guy has done it?

Where is your list of other guys who have "done it"? 5 conference championships and only two losing records as a starter in 16 years. I'm still waiting.

Here's a list of other guys with long winning records. Not one of them has 5 Conference Championship rings.

Farve 1 losing record in 17 seasons

Marino 2-17 seasons
Montana 3-14
Bradshaw 2-14

Nothing special about that group right?

 

[vinnymac]

The writer here is an idiot. Cutler brings a lot to the passing game that the Bears need. Running the ball will be a whole lot easier.

 

[Duckjake]

Here's another guy with 5 Conference Championships. Bart Starr. Oh wait he's in the NFL Hall of Fame. I'll try to find another example.

 

[Russ Smith]

Elway is pushing 50 there's no way his arm is still stronger than Cutler.

 

[Duckjake]

Elway is pushing 50 there's no way his arm is still stronger than Cutler.

Maybe its like golf. I'm in my 50s and can hit the ball farther now than I could when I was 25.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

the article is right on the money. Does everyone forget how horrible the AFC west was last year? I can't believe people are debating the merits of Cutler to Elway. Like him or not, he's generally regarded as a top 10 QB in the history of the NFL. There's no more correlation to being a great QB as winning %. A team is not going to win consistently with mediocre QB play. There's a reason the like of Elway, Bradshaw, Montana, Brady,et al are considered the cream of the crop. If not, then why isn't Vinny Testaverde mentioned with the all time greats? He's 6th all time in yards passing, 8th in TD's, and 7th in completions but the guy is a generally reknowned as a mediocre, at best, QB. That's just as i see Cutler.

Brian St. Pierre

btw, this is the best post in the entire thread .

 

[Russ Smith]

Comparing him to Elway so early is bananas. That said, in fairness to Cutler you have to remember how bad the Denver defense has been the last few years.

28th 2 years ago and 30th last year in points allowed. Some of that can be blamed on Cutler's turnovers but every year Plummer was the QB Denver had a top 10 defense, since then they have not. That's one reason they benched Jake for Cutler, Shanahan knew his defense wasn't as good, he didn't have a really good RB anymore, so he decided he had to open up the offense and Cutler was better suited for that than Plummer.

The problem with Cutler is that so far he appears to be a very fragile guy in terms of his psyche. he's certainly not the first NFL player that a team had trade talks about but the way he reacted to it was very immature and very unprofessional. He forced the trade and now he has to make the best of it.

I agree with everyone else I think Denver got the best of this deal, Chicago gave up way too much to get Cutler.

 

[moklerman]

Its special because the only other guys to put up comparable stats are the elite Quarterbacks of NFL history. Is rushing for 2000 yards in a season less special because more than one guy has done it?

You're criteria for this special feat is just too arbitrary and specific. You still haven't acknowledged Staubach. A winning record every year, 6 conference championship games, 4 Super Bowls. Does that make him the 2nd best QB that ever played? Third?

Jim Kelly, 2 losing seasons out of 11, 5 conference championship games, 4 Super Bowls.

100% winning seasons is special. 75% non-losing seasons is not.

75% non-losing seasons as a starter in no way compares to a RB gaining 2,000+ yards in a season. Not even close. Winning % isn't even a QB stat! It's a team/coach stat. Elway doesn't have a winning percentage.

 

[Linderbee]

He needs to pay the full amount. I get half.

Where is this infamous poll?

 

[Duckjake]

You're criteria for this special feat is just too arbitrary and specific. You still haven't acknowledged Staubach. A winning record every year, 6 conference championship games, 4 Super Bowls. Does that make him the 2nd best QB that ever played? Third?

Jim Kelly, 2 losing seasons out of 11, 5 conference championship games, 4 Super Bowls.

100% winning seasons is special. 75% non-losing seasons is not.

75% non-losing seasons as a starter in no way compares to a RB gaining 2,000+ yards in a season. Not even close. Winning % isn't even a QB stat! It's a team/coach stat. Elway doesn't have a winning percentage.

You are really off the wall. Bringing up the best QBs ever to play the game to show that having non losing seasons 14 out of 16 years and winning 5 Championship games is not special. That's hilarious.

BTW Kelly had 4 non winning seasons in 11 years. That's almost 40% Do you ever get your facts straight?

 

[moklerman]

BTW Kelly had 4 non winning seasons in 11 years. That's almost 40% Do you ever get your facts straight?

2 "losing" seasons. Read it again. And I apologize for letting myself get suckered into arguing these nonsensical issues. You value this meaningless, unrecognized measure of a QB and I tried to show you that even on these terms it didn't make Elway special amongst other great QB's. I've offered numerous statistical examples of why there's no basis for Elway to be considered #2 all time but stat's don't count with Elway. He did it with absolutely no help, other than the various pro-bowlers which don't count as pro-bowlers, and his conference championships mean more than guys with better stats and more Super Bowl wins.

All we're talking about here are all-time QB's and among them, this "Mr. Baseball" stat that you've come up with doesn't separate Elway into a special category. The fact that you're arguing conference championship rings as a feat of greatness means we just have entirely different opinions of what the word "great" means. Elway=Jim Kelly. Good QB's that aren't in the same class as the guys who finished the deal more often.

 

[Pariah]

You know, I don't give a hoot that you don't think Elway should be as revered as he is, but it's amazing to me that you continue to claim that he had all kinds of probowl help on offense...and then admit that you never really watched them play.

Why do you think people say Elway couldn't win a superbowl until he got a running game? (this is a common arguement against elway--he couldn't win a superbowl "on his own") There are two things going on in that statement: 1) It's an acknowledgment that Elway was playing without offensive support for the majority of his career and 2) it's an indictment of Sammy Winder.

Elway=Jim Kelly. Good QB's that aren't in the same class as the guys who finished the deal more often.

So, Marino isn't in Bradshaw's class? Perposterous.

 

[john h]

BUT a pretty fair assessment I'd say.

My take is Cutler is a prima donna but with age and experience that can go away. I think he puts the Bears into a position to be a contender. Finding a QB is perhaps the most difficult thing to do in the NFL and without a good one you are most likely never make it very far. There exceptions and McMahon was one of them. A tough fearless leader but not a very good QB. He was surrounded by defensive stars.

 

[moklerman]

Why do you think people say Elway couldn't win a superbowl until he got a running game?

Because he always choked in the Super Bowl. The guy went to the Super Bowl with the #1 defense in the league. He had help. His teams may have not been loaded on offense but he wasn't alone and he usually had a pretty good defense.

How do you explain that every time the Broncos went to the Super Bowl Elway had very mediocre stat's? How about when in '87 Ken Karcher helped them beat the Raiders and KC at Arrowhead to go 2-1 without Elway? I thought the only reason they won games back then, since they were terrible other than Elway, was because of Elway's "magic". It certainly wasn't his onfield numbers.

But you seem to keep losing sight of the fact that the thing I'm arguing is there's no basis for him to be #2 overall, not that he wasn't a good QB.

There are reasons to question just how great Elway was though. The biggest argument in his favor is that he did what he did with no help. That's a myth. They may not have been household names but he had good teams around him. I give him credit for beating Cleveland each time he had the chance but that feat does hamstring any arguments about the first 3/4 of his career. Getting there is getting there but that was the only team he ever beat. And everyone beat Cleveland.

I'm surprised that you haven't talked about the coaching aspect of Elway's career but it's something that I've considered. The Reeves/Elway relationship wasn't one of the best and many have argued that it's because of Reeves that Elway was being held back. With the improvement Elway made under Shannahan I can certainly entertain that possibility and even agree with it to a certain extent.

I think Reeves was one helluva coach though and it's probably more of a case of Elway and Reeves not meshing. I don't think Reeves was a bad coach for QB's either. Elway, Simms and Chandler all went to pro-bowl's under his coaching and Chandler might have been the best fit for his type of game. He had his best back-to-back years under Reeves and put up numbers that surpassed Elway's under Reeves.

Elway under Shannahan did much better and I think learned to be a better QB but again, there's a catch to this line of thinking in terms of Elway's greatness. Brian Griese led the league in passer rating after Elway left and Jake Plummer put just as good of numbers as Elway and Griese. There is the possibility that it wasn't so much Elway being great but Shannahan's system was good to QB's.

The Broncos were able to have success without Elway at different points of his career. From '83-'91 the team was 9-4 when Elway was out of the lineup. In '98, a 36 year old Bubby Brister was 4-0 when Elway was out. Those Broncos teams were very well-rounded and not nearly the handicap that some try and make them out to be to Elway's career.

Sammie Winder went to the Pro-Bowl twice, Bobby Humphrey went to the Pro-Bowl and had back-to-back 1,100+, 7 TD seasons, Gaston Green went to the Pro-Bowl and had a 1,000+ yards all from '83 to '92 under Reeves. When Shannahan got there in '94 Elway had guys like Anthony Miller, Shannon Sharpe and Terrel Davis all going to the Pro-Bowl.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Because he always choked in the Super Bowl. The guy went to the Super Bowl with the #1 defense in the league. He had help. His teams may have not been loaded on offense but he wasn't alone and he usually had a pretty good defense.

How do you explain that every time the Broncos went to the Super Bowl Elway had very mediocre stat's?.

i think alot of it may have had to do with the teams they were playing against were pretty good.