Clippers Game Thread

[jibikao]

What I want to know is what caused all the sliding down. Our offense was bad last night. We missed tons of shots after 1Q. I don't know if we were just cold or Clippers' defense was THAT good. Funny how we didn't get shut down during our winning streaks.

Bell, Nash and Marion were very cold from outside. We have no plan B when our shots don't fall. Other teams can either shoot from outside or go inside. We only have ONE option.

I know it's sad that Amare is injured or else we would have had option 2 but we need to get back to our winning streak. I refuse to think Kurt Thomas is the only reason. Nash needs to put more pressure on himself and score more when our shots don't fall. Diaw needs to go inside more and be less of a play maker. We need him to go inside.

PS: I want to keep Bell. I think he is worth keeping. His shots are inconsistent but at least he is a decent defender.

 

[golfcardfan]

Marion was very very quite last night also, and I agree when the shooting gets a little cold Nash has got to start shooting and get everyone pumped up. When some shots start falling everyone on the team gets confidence then we make big runs. Need to get over the let down that Amare is not here this year and play ball that got us where we are!!!!

 

[nowagimp]

WOW some people can't get off board with this team fast enough!! Well good riddance you bunch of babys! Maybe just maybe this team will still be pretty good come playoff time. Maybe Dantoni is smarter than a few message board posters and has a plan or is resting some of the rotation for the playoffs for the final week. Or maybe don't want any of the few bigger guys we have to get hurt in the final meaningless week of regular season? I mean we have no idea what is going on? Last nights game kinda sucked buy we had to expect they were gonna bring it after we drilled them last time, right? Not to mention everytime they scored they got phantom fouls also seemed like every shot was a +1, and the refs sure let them bang us around with no calls all night. Oh well just a loss move on and get ready for the playoffs this last week does not mean that much to us, just need to win a few to lock up the 2 seed and then sit all the starters don't even risk an injury.

The desperate tone of some posters is what happens whenever the crap hits the fan. The crap has hit the fan. The suns D with KT was allowing 101ppg, with little doubling. Now the suns double frequently, leaving opposing shooters wide open on the perimeter, while opposing big guys beat up our small forwards, who are trying to guard 4's and 5's in the low post. With KT out opponents 3 pt percentage went from 34 to 40%. The smaller lineup gives up 109/game including many easy putbacks. Diaw and Marion are wrestling with alot of really big opponents like Brand Kaman, Bogut, Mcgloire, Duncan, Muhhamad, etc., The suns are always outsized, but much more so with KT, Amare, and Grant out. The fatigue has set in after a long season with many back to back games and long road trips. The suns frontcourt of 220 lb players wrestling 40 mins/game with 270-300 lb players has caused season long fatigue. They must not only wrestle, but double other players when needed. The coach cant afford to "dog it" and wait for the playoffs, cause the chemistry has faded with injuries and new additions.

There is great potential in this suns team, without injuries, but injuries are the big wildcard in the NBA. The pistons set an NBA record this year for consecutive games played by all 5 starters. Hmmm, best record in the NBA, makes some sense. Dallas went 8-7 in the fifteen games since Josh Howard pulled his hamstring. The suns win against them, without KT, looks less of an achievement considering the Mavs 8-7 record during this time. When Magette went down for the clippers, they pretty much gave up the pacific division to the suns. The suns are 7-8 in their last 15, all without KT. The suns have had much worse losses in the injury department compared with those teams with much of the damage coming at the 4,5 positions. Well duh, thats why we have the worst defensive rebounding team in the NBA. The players arent "dogging it", they are just beaten up, down, whatever. If one piston starter goes down, they are probably out in the second round. If that happens will the pistons clean house? Joe Dumars isnt that stupid, and neither is D'Antoni.

 

[jibikao]

Marion was very very quite last night also, and I agree when the shooting gets a little cold Nash has got to start shooting and get everyone pumped up. When some shots start falling everyone on the team gets confidence then we make big runs. Need to get over the let down that Amare is not here this year and play ball that got us where we are!!!!

Well, Marion can't go inside against Brand and his short jumper or 3pt weren't falling.

I am not so worried about Clippers. I think we can beat them but the trend that we shoot HORRIBLY in 2nd half (or late 2nd Q) is really bothering me. This happened in the Pistons' game when we had a good lead at half. We did not have offense AND defense in 2nd half.

I think Nash needs to score more. He passed way too much last night and he got frustrated because a lot of his passing got interrupted. If Bell's shots don't fall, I think it's safe to say that we want Nash to shoot more. Nash is probably the best shooter on this team and I would rather have him miss than Bell. At least Bell can go after the loss ball and reserve more energy for defense. Bell doesn't need to get frustrated offensively and looks lost. Another thing I see a lot is when our shots don't fall and we are trailing behind, nobody wants to take the shots unless they are way WIDE OPEN. There were too many passings. The offense just looks way too different than in 1Q when we shoot with so much confidence.

 

[scotsman13]

I don't think you're giving Kurt Thomas enough credit. Why does his injury figure to get worse? Stress fractures aren't all that uncommon. Thomas helped the Suns' defense a lot and I think he'll be just as effective for the next year or two. He'll be 34 at the start of next season, which isn't all that old for someone who is historically healthy and fit and doesn't rely on a lot of jumping.

holy smokes! this maybe a first me and elindholm agree on this issue. the suns problems can be traced right to the loosing of kurt thomas for the season. after that point we have been really hurting in the paint. teams have been taking it into the paint every chance they get. without the defense being being set up by kurt we have really had a hard time dealing with the low post threat of anyone.

 

[jibikao]

The desperate tone of some posters is what happens whenever the crap hits the fan. The crap has hit the fan. The suns D with KT was allowing 101ppg, with little doubling. Now the suns double frequently, leaving opposing shooters wide open on the perimeter, while opposing big guys beat up our small forwards, who are trying to guard 4's and 5's in the low post. With KT out opponents 3 pt percentage went from 34 to 40%. The smaller lineup gives up 109/game including many easy putbacks. Diaw and Marion are wrestling with alot of really big opponents like Brand Kaman, Bogut, Mcgloire, Duncan, Muhhamad, etc., The suns are always outsized, but much more so with KT, Amare, and Grant out. The fatigue has set in after a long season with many back to back games and long road trips. The suns frontcourt of 220 lb players wrestling 40 mins/game with 270-300 lb players has caused season long fatigue. They must not only wrestle, but double other players when needed. The coach cant afford to "dog it" and wait for the playoffs, cause the chemistry has faded with injuries and new additions.

There is great potential in this suns team, without injuries, but injuries are the big wildcard in the NBA. The pistons set an NBA record this year for consecutive games played by all 5 starters. Hmmm, best record in the NBA, makes some sense. Dallas went 8-7 in the fifteen games since Josh Howard pulled his hamstring. The suns win against them, without KT, looks less of an achievement considering the Mavs 8-7 record during this time. When Magette went down for the clippers, they pretty much gave up the pacific division to the suns. The suns are 7-8 in their last 15, all without KT. The suns have had much worse losses in the injury department compared with those teams with much of the damage coming at the 4,5 positions. Well duh, thats why we have the worst defensive rebounding team in the NBA. The players arent "dogging it", they are just beaten up, down, whatever. If one piston starter goes down, they are probably out in the second round. If that happens will the pistons clean house? Joe Dumars isnt that stupid, and neither is D'Antoni.

Just want to comment what you said.

Last night I noticed Nash kept double teaming EVERY TIME the ball gets thrown inside which left Livingston open outside. The only lucky thing is Livingston isn't a very good outside shooter but the double teaming certainly didn't really help 'cause it left other things open. I hate double teaming!

 

[nowagimp]

Just want to comment what you said.

Last night I noticed Nash kept double teaming EVERY TIME the ball gets thrown inside which left Livingston open outside. The only lucky thing is Livingston isn't a very good outside shooter but the double teaming certainly didn't really help 'cause it left other things open. I hate double teaming!

The double teaming also leads to fatigue as it makes the suns work harder on D while being less effective defensively. Unfortunately, if the suns dont double, the low post scoring of the competition will be very effective without KT. In football the running back often gets credit for the offensive line performance. For the suns, KT enables the suns to play more effective post defense, and more aggressive perimeter defense using less energy(no doubling). The way things are working now, the suns fatigue themselves faster than they fatigue the opposition, hence the lackluster second half performances, missed open shots. I also suspect that they let up in the second quarter trying to conserve energy for the second half.

I often hear fans say "KT only gets 9ppg and 8rpg". Doug Collins was saying during a TNT game that all the league knows that you have to inside out the suns to beat them, forcing the double and getting open perimeter shots. The ball can also be passed into the post again yielding a one-on-one if the double is not quick enough the second time. If KT is playing, that plan does not work relaibly, as the suns dont have to double. What is the statistic for that kind of impact on the opponents offensive game plan? When KT went down, so did the chance of a championship w/o amare. Forget Burke and Grant, they do not have the defensive skills that KT has. I hope that KT heals well and comes back stronger and in suns shape next year with Amare. I think that this group, when healthy, can win it all. The suns have had an incredible year considering all the injuries. If two starters go down on the Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Nets, or Mavericks, they dont do as well as the suns have done this year. You really cant ask more of this group than what they have done. One really good aspect of this years injuries is that player development has been real good. JR, LB, and 3D have all advanced their skills and will be more effective next year due to the extra playing time that resulted from the injuries.

 

[jibikao]

The double teaming also leads to fatigue as it makes the suns work harder on D while being less effective defensively. Unfortunately, if the suns dont double, the low post scoring of the competition will be very effective without KT. In football the running back often gets credit for the offensive line performance. For the suns, KT enables the suns to play more effective post defense, and more aggressive perimeter defense using less energy(no doubling). The way things are working now, the suns fatigue themselves faster than they fatigue the opposition, hence the lackluster second half performances, missed open shots. I also suspect that they let up in the second quarter trying to conserve energy for the second half.

I often hear fans say "KT only gets 9ppg and 8rpg". Doug Collins was saying during a TNT game that all the league knows that you have to inside out the suns to beat them, forcing the double and getting open perimeter shots. The ball can also be passed into the post again yielding a one-on-one if the double is not quick enough the second time. If KT is playing, that plan does not work relaibly, as the suns dont have to double. What is the statistic for that kind of impact on the opponents offensive game plan? When KT went down, so did the chance of a championship w/o amare. Forget Burke and Grant, they do not have the defensive skills that KT has. I hope that KT heals well and comes back stronger and in suns shape next year with Amare. I think that this group, when healthy, can win it all. The suns have had an incredible year considering all the injuries. If two starters go down on the Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Nets, or Mavericks, they dont do as well as the suns have done this year. You really cant ask more of this group than what they have done. One really good aspect of this years injuries is that player development has been real good. JR, LB, and 3D have all advanced their skills and will be more effective next year due to the extra playing time that resulted from the injuries.

I understand what you say. But we can't stop inside anyway with double teaming (like last night), so why wasting energy on switching so many times on defense, when we could have saved more energy on the offense end? Let Diaw/Marion/TT play one-on-one and if the big guy keeps scoring, let him. It sure beats letting the opponent shoot the lights out every game. We've seen it too many times now.

I know Burke isn't nearly at KT's level but the fact is coach D didn't even try to adjust. If he put Burke/Grant in for about 1-3mins and nothing went well, then we can say they are not ready. Why would Grant play some heavy mins against the Pistons and then see ZERO playing time the next game? I don't expect them stopping Brand but I certainly don't mind them fouling him.

 

[myrondizzo]

Why would Grant play some heavy mins against the Pistons and then see ZERO playing time the next game? I don't expect them stopping Brand but I certainly don't mind them fouling him.

he was injured.

 

[jibikao]

he was injured.

What about Burke? Burke did play during our winning streak didn't he? Did he just disappear? I am only interested to see 1-3mins of playing time to see some defense production when Brand was crazy. Tim Thomas certainly didn't stop at all.

 

[nowagimp]

I understand what you say. But we can't stop inside anyway with double teaming (like last night), so why wasting energy on switching so many times on defense, when we could have saved more energy on the offense end? Let Diaw/Marion/TT play one-on-one and if the big guy keeps scoring, let him. It sure beats letting the opponent shoot the lights out every game. We've seen it too many times now.

I know Burke isn't nearly at KT's level but the fact is coach D didn't even try to adjust. If he put Burke/Grant in for about 1-3mins and nothing went well, then we can say they are not ready. Why would Grant play some heavy mins against the Pistons and then see ZERO playing time the next game? I don't expect them stopping Brand but I certainly don't mind them fouling him.

If the current suns play one on one in the post defensively, the opposing bigs will foul them out by the third quarter and probably shoot 70%.

 

[Errntknght]

jibikao, "Tim Thomas certainly didn't stop at all."

That seems to be most people's opinion of TT game last night, but I have to disagree. I thought he did far and away the best job defending Brand and Kamen - and did it with less 'help' from double teams. Where he sucked was when they set picks (mainly Brand) - which has got to be primarily a coaching problem since he is continuing to do the same stupid thing pick after pick. Namely switching onto the guard coming off the pick. One thing the coaches could have done is have him only defend Kamen who doesn't set many outside picks. The other thing is to make darn sure he knows he's not to switch during a P&R. In fact, tell him he's not even to slide out to help on the opposing guard - he can fall back but he has to keep his primary focus on his own man.

Diaw, Marion and KT can help our guard on a P&R without losing track of their own man but TT cannot, so the coaches have to give him a task that he can do. It wouldn't hurt to try to teach him to help a little without getting forced into a switch or losing track of his man but if he can't get the hang of it, then cut it back to what he's capable of.

 

[jibikao]

jibikao, "Tim Thomas certainly didn't stop at all."

That seems to be most people's opinion of TT game last night, but I have to disagree. I thought he did far and away the best job defending Brand and Kamen - and did it with less 'help' from double teams. Where he sucked was when they set picks (mainly Brand) - which has got to be primarily a coaching problem since he is continuing to do the same stupid thing pick after pick. Namely switching onto the guard coming off the pick. One thing the coaches could have done is have him only defend Kamen who doesn't set many outside picks. The other thing is to make darn sure he knows he's not to switch during a P&R. In fact, tell him he's not even to slide out to help on the opposing guard - he can fall back but he has to keep his primary focus on his own man.

Diaw, Marion and KT can help our guard on a P&R without losing track of their own man but TT cannot, so the coaches have to give him a task that he can do. It wouldn't hurt to try to teach him to help a little without getting forced into a switch or losing track of his man but if he can't get the hang of it, then cut it back to what he's capable of.

There were several plays last night where Nash and TT had terrible communication. TT didn't switch fast enough and he did not do a good job boxing out Brand. I am not expecting him to shut down Brand but he looked pretty relaxed out there when we got killed inside. I'll pay more attention on him on Friday and see how he defends. They say Kwame Brown and Lamar have been playing much better recently. We'll see if we can still dominate Lakers. On offense, I wonder why Nash rarely runs pick&roll with TT? He was our biggest guy last night and I couldn't even recall one time where Nash ran some plays with him. It was mostly him standing behind the arc waiting for the pass.

 

[CaptainInsano]

It does look like I was wrong about Kurt though you guys set me on the right course, I think with all the injurys during this season I have developed an injury paranoia.. I kind of combined 34 years old center next year that will be roughhousing in the middle with a foot injury and it seemed like a bad combo to me and threw out the logical facts that he is very rarely injured and plays most games.

Can we not have anything like this happen next year PLEASE.

 

[Wally]

Marion was very very quite last night also, and I agree when the shooting gets a little cold Nash has got to start shooting and get everyone pumped up. When some shots start falling everyone on the team gets confidence then we make big runs. Need to get over the let down that Amare is not here this year and play ball that got us where we are!!!!

I was at the game - Row 10...... Great seats, not so great game. When the Sun's came out before the game we were all wondering where Marion was. I'm not sure when he came out of the locker room, but a few comments before the game had to do with Marion not looking like the Matrix.... I wonder if he had a hangover - or what???

Most of our group agreed that if the Suns played defense as well as the Clippers, we would have won the game. I think this team IS capable of defending, but theye feel they can outscore the other team. This has worked in the past but not allways BUT many of our "outscoring" the other team was really a combination of scoring AND defense. IF the Sun's can put more effort into man to man defense, they will have a good chance to get to the 2nd round... If not, wait until next year. I sure hope we keep Diaw - actually, I like the idea of "Let's keep this team together"...... Just add some defense and a good post player. How about Amare & Thomas?

It's that time of the year to take action, not look for excuses like it seem as if the Suns are doing. If they play on BOTH ends of the court they will be ok. It's time to dig down deep and play Sun's ball on BOTH ends of the court.

PS.... Chris Kaman is a monster & so is Brand (got his sig )

 

[Errntknght]

jibikao, "There were several plays last night where Nash and TT had terrible communication. TT didn't switch fast enough and he did not do a good job boxing out Brand."

It wasn't a communication problem - Nash looked very irked a couple of times when he was left defending Brand, and who can blame him. And it wasn't that Brand was bulldozing Nash when he went under the pick, it was TT 'helping' too far on the Clippers guard and ignoring Brand so the switch was forced. Maybe Steve will talk to the coaches and try to get them to direct Tim to stay at home during the P&R - as a matter of self-preservation if nothing else.

Its not surprising that TT doesn't play the P&R well as wing players don't get involved in them a whole lot and its usually not a big problem if they switch them because the guard is only stuck defending a SF/SG, not a PF/C.

Even so I'll have to admit that TT is as bad at defending the pick and roll as anyone I've seen since Corie Blount. But Blount had Skiles as the coach and he was using a more difficult type of defense - he wanted the 'big' to step out and cut off the opp. guard and work a trap if possible. If no trap he had to quickly get back to his own man. Corie had no sense of timing on the step out and all he'd manage to do is be a second screen for our guard to go around - and he couldn't get back swiftly to his own man. It was pathetic but the mistake was Skiles trying to have all the bigs play the same style which Corie was not capable of doing. The odd thing was that Oliver Miller was wonderful at it - I haven't seen many bigs that could trap a pick and roll as well as he. In fact, Oliver was very good at all kinds of traps but Scotty was too obsessed with his weight to notice what he could do on the floor.

 

[Errntknght]

I remember the last Clippers game several of us noted that the Clips had tried to beat the Suns at the Suns game instead of pounding it inside. Obviously, they didn't make the same blunder again.

I think it helped them a lot that Sam Cassell was out and they were 'forced' to put someone who defends well on Nash. EJ said something along that line during the KTAR broadcast though he didn't go quite that far. That wasn't the whole story - the entire team seemed to waiting for some Nash's favorite passes when he got deep in the paint. The didn't steal many but they batted them away. They also seemed to have a good idea of where Steve liked to go with his kickouts and were quick to put on some pressure.
This is the kind of adjustment you see in the playoffs and I think this may well be something else that will give us trouble in a series. D'Antoni likes to say that other teams can't defend us well because we don't run set patterns but we definitely do have patterns of preference that they can pick up on in a series.

I can see us getting by the Lakers because they don't have the inside game that forces us to double team and collapse back into the paint but I don't think it's going to be a piece of cake. I hope we don't blitz them Friday night... we could go into the playoffs thinking we don't have to play that hard and absorb a couple of losses before we got cranked up.

 

[jibikao]

I think it helped them a lot that Sam Cassell was out and they were 'forced' to put someone who defends well on Nash. EJ said something along that line during the KTAR broadcast though he didn't go quite that far. That wasn't the whole story - the entire team seemed to waiting for some Nash's favorite passes when he got deep in the paint. The didn't steal many but they batted them away. They also seemed to have a good idea of where Steve liked to go with his kickouts and were quick to put on some pressure.
This is the kind of adjustment you see in the playoffs and I think this may well be something else that will give us trouble in a series. D'Antoni likes to say that other teams can't defend us well because we don't run set patterns but we definitely do have patterns of preference that they can pick up on in a series.

Sam Cassell usually takes a lot of jumpers and in a way, that sort of helped us if he missed. And if I remember correctly, Sam Cassell's defense is nothing to be scared of. Livingston has long arms that can annoy Nash a bit.

Yes, Suns' offense set is to seal Nash's passing lanes. Several of Nash's favorite play is to penetrate deep inside and pass it to the wing for 3pt shooting. Nash's passing got interrupted like 3 times by that center. Nash was super pissed.

There were definitely a lot of standing arounds for Nash to pass that PERFECT shot but we weren't making many open shots in the 2nd half anyway. That's the price you pay for being such a jumper shooter team. We are like 100% pure jump shooting team.