Coaching staff doing all they can to give Kolb the keys

[52brandon]

Which, IMO, makes the trade a mistake because you simply can't separate the two. There's no way we were going to be able to pull off the trade and then bring Kolb in here without locking him up. And, there's no way Kolb's agent was going to let us lock him up without paying him like an experienced starter. We were over a barrel. Throw in the QB fiasco from the previous season and the impending Fitz contract and I understand why we made the mistake we make. But, it WAS a mistake.

Steve

why couldn't we have brought him in without giving him a long deal? And if his agent wanted to be cute like that, we should have just gone after Orton like originally thought

 

[Cardiac]

Which, IMO, makes the trade a mistake because you simply can't separate the two. There's no way we were going to be able to pull off the trade and then bring Kolb in here without locking him up. And, there's no way Kolb's agent was going to let us lock him up without paying him like an experienced starter. We were over a barrel. Throw in the QB fiasco from the previous season and the impending Fitz contract and I understand why we made the mistake we make. But, it WAS a mistake.

Steve

This

I was initially against the idea of getting Kolb but talked myself into it and I for one I'm not going to blast the FO for it. To this point it has proven to be a mistake but the options of Orton or Hassleback weren't very appealing to me either.

 

[Mitch]

Which, IMO, makes the trade a mistake because you simply can't separate the two. There's no way we were going to be able to pull off the trade and then bring Kolb in here without locking him up. And, there's no way Kolb's agent was going to let us lock him up without paying him like an experienced starter. We were over a barrel. Throw in the QB fiasco from the previous season and the impending Fitz contract and I understand why we made the mistake we make. But, it WAS a mistake.

Steve

I'm sorry Steve but Kolb had one year left on his contract at $1.4M. He had NO say in whether a team that traded for him would redo his contract. The Cardinals elected to. I said at the time it was a mistake---the safety net for this year (his second) was the f-tag, and even Kolb lit it up last year, the 2 year average of $1.4M and $12M is a little over $6.5M---a nice tidy window in which to THEN decide whether this previously untested player deserved the big bucks.

In light of Kolb's inexperience, it was a poor decision.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm sorry Steve but Kolb had one year left on his contract at $1.4M. He had NO say in whether a team that traded for him would redo his contract. The Cardinals elected to. I said at the time it was a mistake---the safety net for this year (his second) was the f-tag, and even Kolb lit it up last year, the 2 year average of $1.4M and $12M is a little over $6.5M---a nice tidy window in which to THEN decide whether this previously untested player deserved the big bucks.

In light of Kolb's inexperience, it was a poor decision.

Well, sure, but we didn't bring him in to be the guy he's turned out to be. There is no way we could have justified giving up DRC and a high pick only to watch a budding superstar QB walk out the door at the end of the season or hold us hostage for a Drew Brees kind of contract. It would have been a PR disaster. I wish we hadn't traded for him but I understand the reasoning.

Steve

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I'm sorry Steve but Kolb had one year left on his contract at $1.4M. He had NO say in whether a team that traded for him would redo his contract. The Cardinals elected to. I said at the time it was a mistake---the safety net for this year (his second) was the f-tag, and even Kolb lit it up last year, the 2 year average of $1.4M and $12M is a little over $6.5M---a nice tidy window in which to THEN decide whether this previously untested player deserved the big bucks.

In light of Kolb's inexperience, it was a poor decision.

5/5

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm sorry Steve but Kolb had one year left on his contract at $1.4M. He had NO say in whether a team that traded for him would redo his contract. The Cardinals elected to. I said at the time it was a mistake---the safety net for this year (his second) was the f-tag, and even Kolb lit it up last year, the 2 year average of $1.4M and $12M is a little over $6.5M---a nice tidy window in which to THEN decide whether this previously untested player deserved the big bucks.

In light of Kolb's inexperience, it was a poor decision.

I just wanted to add, I absolutely agree with this statement but only in that we should have walked away from the deal if we couldn't sign him to a reasonable long term contract. To commit so much money to an inexperienced QB, you better know exactly what you're getting and it's clear we didn't. I think we let fear drive us during that offseason and as Andrew Jackson once said "never take counsel of your fears". When you do, you end up praying that a flawed and injury prone QB will suddenly learn how to play his position.

Steve

 

[Mitch]

I just wanted to add, I absolutely agree with this statement but only in that we should have walked away from the deal if we couldn't sign him to a reasonable long term contract. To commit so much money to an inexperienced QB, you better know exactly what you're getting and it's clear we didn't. I think we let fear drive us during that offseason and as Andrew Jackson once said "never take counsel of your fears". When you do, you end up praying that a flawed and injury prone QB will suddenly learn how to play his position.

Steve

I agree, Steve. If Kolb was proven, then the deal only seems natural.

Notice that every team that has signed a young QB since has gotten a much better deal---like the Seahawks with Flynn.

They should call this the "Kolb Factor."

 

[Darkside]

I'm probably in the minority now, but I was glad when they got Kolb originally, because I thought he had the most potential of everyone available at the time. I was also glad they extended him on his deadline, because if we don't get Manning and we lose Kolb then we're left with basically nothing. I still think it was the right move, even though he's sucked so far. They didn't know he was going to suck this hard in camp and preseason and they doubled down on the dude. I don't fault them for trying to get us a QB and throwing money at the problem. That's what it takes.

However, what I do have an issue with is their evaluation process. It's disheartening, to me at least, when dudes on here can evaluate a QB better than our FO. That pisses me off. Not that I don't love this forum and all of you on it, but that should never happen. When people on here say a dude sucks and the FO gets him because they see something, I expect all of you to be proven wrong. They get paid huge money to evaluate better than us.

I still hope Kolb outplays all of our expectations. And as much as we bitch about the guy, I know most of you hope he plays outstanding for us. The alternative, after DA and Hall, Ad nauseam, the alternative is that we have a staff who can't evaluate sh*t when it comes to QB's--or the Oline to be honest--and if that's the case we're in real trouble as a franchise going forward.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm probably in the minority now, but I was glad when they got Kolb originally, because I thought he had the most potential of everyone available at the time. I was also glad they extended him on his deadline, because if we don't get Manning and we lose Kolb then we're left with basically nothing. I still think it was the right move, even though he's sucked so far. They didn't know he was going to suck this hard in camp and preseason and they doubled down on the dude. I don't fault them for trying to get us a QB and throwing money at the problem. That's what it takes.

However, what I do have an issue with is their evaluation process. It's disheartening, to me at least, when dudes on here can evaluate a QB better than our FO. That pisses me off. Not that I don't love this forum and all of you on it, but that should never happen. When people on here say a dude sucks and the FO gets him because they see something, I expect all of you to be proven wrong. They get paid huge money to evaluate better than us.

I still hope Kolb outplays all of our expectations. And as much as we bitch about the guy, I know most of you hope he plays outstanding for us. The alternative, after DA and Hall, Ad nauseam, the alternative is that we have a staff who can't evaluate sh*t when it comes to QB's--or the Oline to be honest--and if that's the case we're in real trouble as a franchise going forward.

Agreed. I really didn't have a strong feeling about him one way the other but like you, I trusted in the FO evaluation. I thought the offseason payout was absurd though. I thought we had all the information we needed to realize that had we made a mistake with the guy.

Steve

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm sorry Steve but Kolb had one year left on his contract at $1.4M. He had NO say in whether a team that traded for him would redo his contract. The Cardinals elected to. I said at the time it was a mistake---the safety net for this year (his second) was the f-tag, and even Kolb lit it up last year, the 2 year average of $1.4M and $12M is a little over $6.5M---a nice tidy window in which to THEN decide whether this previously untested player deserved the big bucks.

In light of Kolb's inexperience, it was a poor decision.

And if we had used the F tag on Kolb we might have lost Campbell and I'm pretty sure the Cards knew when they made the Kolb deal that it was possible if not probable they'd be franchising campbell(since we were openly talking about it here at the time).

If you make a deal that involves a 2nd rounder and former 1st round pick you have to then make a commitment to the QB. You have to show him that you aren't just test driving him but you believe he's the guy. QB's play better when the team shows a commitment to them.

 

[Darkside]

Agreed. I really didn't have a strong feeling about him one way the other but like you, I trusted in the FO evaluation. I thought the offseason payout was absurd though. I thought we had all the information we needed to realize that had we made a mistake with the guy.

Steve

I disagree on the payout. We played it safe, figuring we weren't going to get Manning and so we paid the dude. If we don't what are we left with? Skelton and Lindley and Bartel? If you believe in a dude, you don't just jettison him after one year with no offseason. They didn't know he was going to be this inept in preseason and camps. Granted, that's a whole evaluation process which I think we both agree has sucked balls so far, but you still have to follow your process and continue with what you've invested in until it's been proven beyond a doubt that you've messed up. Their process and evaluation was f*cked, but paying him wasn't because they stood by that evaluation process, which is what you have to do to retain or get talent.

 

[Phrazbit]

As much as I disliked the contract they actually had an out in March that could have gotten them off, relatively, cheap. They shouldnt have given him his bonus, they even had a ready made excuse with the concussions. To have not only given him the bonus but rolled the impact of that bonus into later seasons (where IMO it was already a near certainty he wont be here), was doubling down on the stupidity.

 

[Phrazbit]

Agreed. I really didn't have a strong feeling about him one way the other but like you, I trusted in the FO evaluation. I thought the offseason payout was absurd though. I thought we had all the information we needed to realize that had we made a mistake with the guy.

Steve

Didnt see this post before I replied a moment ago. Basically, the offseason payout part is dead on. We knew what we had, a guy who is at best a below average player, and definitely not the franchise guy they talked themselves into. And the injury concerns alone should have been enough to pull the plug.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Despite what some may think I don't have a dog in this fight but I will say this. The drive before the end of the half was the best a QB has looked in Arizona in 3 years. if you disagree show me another 80+ yd TD drive where the QB went 5/5 since Warner. Won't happen.

Kolb made probably the most bone headed throw I have see with the Pick 6 but the problem with Skeleton is he can't hit guys consistently enough to sustain drives. Like at all. He either hits a big play or not. He can't lead a TD drive where he has to hit throw after throw after throw to keep the chains moving. He just isn't accurate enough and air mails balls (like the Floyd throw on 3rd) all the time. He's a drive killer under center. Until he gets more accurate he can't start for this team.

Don't get me wrong Kolbs horrible too. But at least if he can stay on the field he maybe the better of the two options.

Although that's not a given obviously. God this sucks we are going through this for the THIRD year in a row.

 

[Darkside]

Despite what some may think I don't have a dog in this fight but I will say this. The drive before the end of the half was the best a QB has looked in Arizona in 3 years. if you disagree show me another 80+ yd TD drive where the QB went 5/5 since Warner. Won't happen.

Kolb made probably the most bone headed throw I have see with the Pick 6 but the problem with Skeleton is he can't hit guys consistently enough to sustain drives. Like at all. He either hits a big play or not. He can't lead a TD drive where he has to hit throw after throw after throw to keep the chains moving. He just isn't accurate enough and air mails balls (like the Floyd throw on 3rd) all the time. He's a drive killer under center. Until he gets more accurate he can't start for this team.

Don't get me wrong Kolbs horrible too. But at least if he can stay on the field he maybe the better of the two options.

Although that's not a given obviously. God this sucks we are going through this for the THIRD year in a row.

Both our QB's suck. But I agree with you about Kolb's drive before the half. People still criticized Kolb for his 53 yard completion to Fitz. I think it's all about money. 99% about money. If Kolb were making the minimum or 500k or so nobody would have a problem. But because he's making millions everyone's a freaking critic. If it were Lindley as a rook, everyone would say he played well that game. It's all about expectations.

Kolb's first interception was pretty bad, but his second one really bothers me. The one right after halftime. Was the same play they ran earlier and he stared down the guy and our TE was wide open, middle of the field. That's such a horrible play for a dude who's in his 6th year. Kolb doesn't go through his progressions at all, and for someone with his experience that's inexcusable.

 

[red desert]

I'm probably in the minority now, but I was glad when they got Kolb originally, because I thought he had the most potential of everyone available at the time. I was also glad they extended him on his deadline, because if we don't get Manning and we lose Kolb then we're left with basically nothing. I still think it was the right move, even though he's sucked so far. They didn't know he was going to suck this hard in camp and preseason and they doubled down on the dude. I don't fault them for trying to get us a QB and throwing money at the problem. That's what it takes.

However, what I do have an issue with is their evaluation process. It's disheartening, to me at least, when dudes on here can evaluate a QB better than our FO. That pisses me off. Not that I don't love this forum and all of you on it, but that should never happen. When people on here say a dude sucks and the FO gets him because they see something, I expect all of you to be proven wrong. They get paid huge money to evaluate better than us.

I still hope Kolb outplays all of our expectations. And as much as we bitch about the guy, I know most of you hope he plays outstanding for us. The alternative, after DA and Hall, Ad nauseam, the alternative is that we have a staff who can't evaluate sh*t when it comes to QB's--or the Oline to be honest--and if that's the case we're in real trouble as a franchise going forward.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Both our QB's suck. But I agree with you about Kolb's drive before the half. People still criticized Kolb for his 53 yard completion to Fitz. I think it's all about money. 99% about money. If Kolb were making the minimum or 500k or so nobody would have a problem. But because he's making millions everyone's a freaking critic. If it were Lindley as a rook, everyone would say he played well that game. It's all about expectations.

Kolb's first interception was pretty bad, but his second one really bothers me. The one right after halftime. Was the same play they ran earlier and he stared down the guy and our TE was wide open, middle of the field. That's such a horrible play for a dude who's in his 6th year. Kolb doesn't go through his progressions at all, and for someone with his experience that's inexcusable.

Agreed on the 2nd INT. mind numbing is all I can say and have no idea what he was looking at. But unfortunately I can recall Anderson, Hall, and Skeleton INTs that were just as bad. I'll give Kolb credit for bouncing back and leading a 50 yd drive after that for a FG. I also liked his comp % as that's VERY important. skeleton couldn't go 17/22 In his backyard throwing to Fitz by themselves.

Then again how can you start a guy who teammates and opponemts are questioning his toughness weekly? Listen we are polishing turds here. Just run the damn ball and play good D.

But I was all ready to jump on the Skeleton bandwagon this game and he looked bad again, when he had the opportunity to put a choke hold on this job. the first drive I absolve him completely but even after the OL settled down, he still missed guys all over the place. He can get it on their body but almost the exact opposite shoulder or behind the WR every single time. Every thriw he completes seems to be a nice catch by the WR. He is as inaccurate as DA and that's saying something.

 

[Phrazbit]

Despite what some may think I don't have a dog in this fight but I will say this. The drive before the end of the half was the best a QB has looked in Arizona in 3 years. if you disagree show me another 80+ yd TD drive where the QB went 5/5 since Warner. Won't happen.

Kolb made probably the most bone headed throw I have see with the Pick 6 but the problem with Skeleton is he can't hit guys consistently enough to sustain drives. Like at all. He either hits a big play or not. He can't lead a TD drive where he has to hit throw after throw after throw to keep the chains moving. He just isn't accurate enough and air mails balls (like the Floyd throw on 3rd) all the time. He's a drive killer under center. Until he gets more accurate he can't start for this team.

Don't get me wrong Kolbs horrible too. But at least if he can stay on the field he maybe the better of the two options.

Although that's not a given obviously. God this sucks we are going through this for the THIRD year in a row.

Yeah... you have to go all the way back to the most recent scoring drive that the Cardinals had in a regular season game...

1st and 10 at ARI 20J.Skelton pass short right to L.Fitzgerald to ARZ 29 for 9 yards (K.Wright; L.Hill).
2nd and 1 at ARI 29A.Sherman up the middle to ARZ 32 for 3 yards (B.Mebane).
1st and 10 at ARI 32J.Skelton pass deep middle to L.Fitzgerald to SEA 46 for 22 yards (K.Chancellor).
1st and 10 at SEA 46J.Skelton pass short right to L.Fitzgerald to SEA 33 for 13 yards (R.Sherman).
1st and 10 at SEA 33J.Skelton pass short middle to A.Sherman to SEA 22 for 11 yards (K.Wright).
1st and 10 at SEA 22(Shotgun) C.Taylor left tackle to SEA 15 for 7 yards (C.McDonald).
2nd and 3 at SEA 15(Shotgun) J.Skelton pass short right to J.King to SEA 13 for 2 yards (R.Lewis).
3rd and 1 at SEA 13J.Skelton pass short right to T.Heap for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN.1016
J.Feely extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Leach, Holder-D.Zastudil.

 

[Darkside]

Agreed on the 2nd INT. mind numbing is all I can say and have no idea what he was looking at. But unfortunately I can recall Anderson, Hall, and Skeleton INTs that were just as bad. I'll give Kolb credit for bouncing back and leading a 50 yd drive after that for a FG. I also liked his comp % as that's VERY important. skeleton couldn't go 17/22 In his backyard throwing to Fitz by themselves.

Then again how can you start a guy who teammates and opponemts are questioning his toughness weekly? Listen we are polishing turds here. Just run the damn ball and play good D.

But I was all ready to jump on the Skeleton bandwagon this game and he looked bad again, when he had the opportunity to put a choke hold on this job. the first drive I absolve him completely but even after the OL settled down, he still missed guys all over the place. He can get it on their body but almost the exact opposite shoulder or behind the WR every single time. Every thriw he completes seems to be a nice catch by the WR. He is as inaccurate as DA and that's saying something.

Totally agree with everything you said. Thing is man, Skelton can't make back-shoulder throws or any of the finesse throws you need to play in the NFL. No back-shoulders or fade's or streaks. He can't throw guys open. I really thought (and said) that Skelton was going to win this job though, because of how poorly Kolb played in preseason. I don't know now man. Last game Kolb led a 50-yarder for score and an 80+ yarder before half for score. I haven't seen Skelton put those plays together like that in preseason. That's a lot of plays to string together.

 

[Darkside]

Yeah... you have to go all the way back to the most recent scoring drive that the Cardinals had in a regular season game...

1st and 10 at ARI 20J.Skelton pass short right to L.Fitzgerald to ARZ 29 for 9 yards (K.Wright; L.Hill).
2nd and 1 at ARI 29A.Sherman up the middle to ARZ 32 for 3 yards (B.Mebane).
1st and 10 at ARI 32J.Skelton pass deep middle to L.Fitzgerald to SEA 46 for 22 yards (K.Chancellor).
1st and 10 at SEA 46J.Skelton pass short right to L.Fitzgerald to SEA 33 for 13 yards (R.Sherman).
1st and 10 at SEA 33J.Skelton pass short middle to A.Sherman to SEA 22 for 11 yards (K.Wright).
1st and 10 at SEA 22(Shotgun) C.Taylor left tackle to SEA 15 for 7 yards (C.McDonald).
2nd and 3 at SEA 15(Shotgun) J.Skelton pass short right to J.King to SEA 13 for 2 yards (R.Lewis).
3rd and 1 at SEA 13J.Skelton pass short right to T.Heap for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN.1016
J.Feely extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Leach, Holder-D.Zastudil.

Nice. That's also the game Fitz went berserk and was catching one-handers for first downs in a meaningless game. Love it!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Yeah... you have to go all the way back to the most recent scoring drive that the Cardinals had in a regular season game...

1st and 10 at ARI 20J.Skelton pass short right to L.Fitzgerald to ARZ 29 for 9 yards (K.Wright; L.Hill).
2nd and 1 at ARI 29A.Sherman up the middle to ARZ 32 for 3 yards (B.Mebane).
1st and 10 at ARI 32J.Skelton pass deep middle to L.Fitzgerald to SEA 46 for 22 yards (K.Chancellor).
1st and 10 at SEA 46J.Skelton pass short right to L.Fitzgerald to SEA 33 for 13 yards (R.Sherman).
1st and 10 at SEA 33J.Skelton pass short middle to A.Sherman to SEA 22 for 11 yards (K.Wright).
1st and 10 at SEA 22(Shotgun) C.Taylor left tackle to SEA 15 for 7 yards (C.McDonald).
2nd and 3 at SEA 15(Shotgun) J.Skelton pass short right to J.King to SEA 13 for 2 yards (R.Lewis).
3rd and 1 at SEA 13J.Skelton pass short right to T.Heap for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN.1016
J.Feely extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Leach, Holder-D.Zastudil.

Ok haha fair enough. Doesn't change that Kolb consistently hits more throws then Skeleton does to keep a drive moving. The drive you reference above is few and far between with Johnny. The SF and Cinnci games quarterbacked by OL JS was some of the worst and most frustrating QB play I have ever witnessed. If Kolb can stay healthy, he is the more consistent Quarterback. Problem is he probably can't stay healthy.

So fear not conspiracy theorists and Skeleton backers. Even If Kolb is named the starter hell inevitably get injured and John cam get his shot. Again.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Nice. That's also the game Fitz went berserk and was catching one-handers for first downs in a meaningless game. Love it!

Exactly. If you actually watch that game, that's Skeleton throwing balls within 8 yards of Fitz and him making otherworldly catches. my cousin is a diehard Seahawks fan and he bitterly admits Fitz is the only WR he has seen single handledly win games, with the game referenced above as Exhibit A.

 

[Phrazbit]

Ok haha fair enough. Doesn't change that Kolb consistently hits more throws then Skeleton does to keep a drive moving. The drive you reference above is few and far between with Johnny. The SF and Cinnci games quarterbacked by OL JS was some of the worst and most frustrating QB play I have ever witnessed. If Kolb can stay healthy, he is the more consistent Quarterback. Problem is he probably can't stay healthy.

So fear not conspiracy theorists and Skeleton backers. Even of Kolb is named the starter hell inevitably get injured and John cam get his shot. Again.

Kolb is more accurate but he is also a lot more likely to put the team in a 2nd or 3rd and 20 situation that he cant throw out of. They're both very inconsistent just in different ways, Kolb might make it look prettier in a box score but his results are no better... and typically worse.

The most discouraging thing about Kolb is he seems to fold like a lawn chair once the pressure mounts or he takes a bad hit, and he runs himself into a lot of bad hits.

I think that the Cards would have a much better chance at sustained success if they went with Skelton and ran a conservative offense. Where with Kolb and how skittish he gets its virtually impossible to have sustain offense with the amount of negative plays he causes. And his total inability to read some pretty uncomplicated coverages this preseason has been stunning.

 

[MrYeahBut]

.
Cardiac.... your comment about Phrazbits totured soul kept me reading this whole thread..... thanks for the lolz



.

 

[TJ]

I think both QB's are pretty bad but at least I can admit when one plays well, as I have with Skelton too. Kolb must've stole your girlfriend , beat you up right in front of her, and ran over your dog on his way over to punching your mom in the face. Either that or I guess you're hell-bent on trying to prove everybody you are right on Kolb. You very well may be right on Kolb, but, is it really that important. I think Stewart Bradley was a horrible signing but will admit when he plays well.

5/5

Bingo.

Heaven forbid people give someone credit, on the team for which we allegedly root, when credit is due (without being accused of having a dog in the race).