Coaching staff doing all they can to give Kolb the keys

[Darkside]

Exactly. If you actually watch that game, that's Skeleton throwing balls within 8 yards of Fitz and him making otherworldly catches. my cousin is a diehard Seahawks fan and he bitterly admits Fitz is the only WR he has seen single handledly win games, with the game referenced above as Exhibit A.

Oh I've seen that game many times. Fitz was otherworldly. Most of the passes that game were horrific, but Fitz made some amazing catches and runs after the catch. We actually would have lost that game, totally lost it, if Fitz hadn't made a diving one-handed catch for a first down to keep the drive alive to win the game. Fitz wins that game, didn't have anything to do with Skelton (unless you call a warm body throwing it to Fitz a QB). Fitz was an absolute beast that game.

 

[Darkside]

I think that the Cards would have a much better chance at sustained success if they went with Skelton and ran a conservative offense. Where with Kolb and how skittish he gets its virtually impossible to have sustain offense with the amount of negative plays he causes. And his total inability to read some pretty uncomplicated coverages this preseason has been stunning.

I can't argue any of this. However, I do think if we're going to play conservative, ball-control, that Kolb is better suited for it than Skelton. Kolb's problem comes when he's trying to make big plays. If you limit him to short, ball-controlled plays, he can make those throws better than Skelton. He can't hang in the pocket as well as Skelton, I agree, but I don't think he'd need to with the kind of offense we're talking about.

 

[Phrazbit]

I can't argue any of this. However, I do think if we're going to play conservative, ball-control, that Kolb is better suited for it than Skelton. Kolb's problem comes when he's trying to make big plays. If you limit him to short, ball-controlled plays, he can make those throws better than Skelton. He can't hang in the pocket as well as Skelton, I agree, but I don't think he'd need to with the kind of offense we're talking about.

I dont think it would work with Kolb because of how frequently he puts the team in extremely long yardage situations, and as near as I can tell he is as apt to do that in any situation, regardless of protection or formation. That and a conservative game plan dont fit together.

 

[Darkside]

I dont think it would work with Kolb because of how frequently he puts the team in extremely long yardage situations, and as near as I can tell he is as apt to do that in any situation, regardless of protection or formation. That and a conservative game plan dont fit together.

I honestly don't know why you say that. His problems are when he drops back in 5 steppers and try's to read a defense. In 3-steps and ball control he'd be manageable in my opinion. If he has outlets and minimal reads I think he'd be okay.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I think the reason the coaches are given Kolb every chance is because they see both QBs in practice and it seems practice is telling them that if he can get out of his gametime funk (a funk both QBs are having to deal with in relation to our funky OL), Kolb is just a whole lot more consistent with his passes. Now some can say that is not game conditions with a game time pass rush , if so... then what the hell is Skelton's excuse in practice? I think both QBs leave a ton to be desired, but I doubt the coaches have another agenda other than winning.

 

[Phrazbit]

I honestly don't know why you say that. His problems are when he drops back in 5 steppers and try's to read a defense. In 3-steps and ball control he'd be manageable in my opinion. If he has outlets and minimal reads I think he'd be okay.

I dont think so, he takes deeper drops than he should on a consistent basis and if his first read is covered he typically starts running around. Thats not built into the play, thats him bailing on plays quickly. It wouldnt fly with a conservative offense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I honestly don't know why you say that. His problems are when he drops back in 5 steppers and try's to read a defense. In 3-steps and ball control he'd be manageable in my opinion. If he has outlets and minimal reads I think he'd be okay.

Phrazabit hates Kevin Kolb. There is no use debating him on the topic.

 

[Darkside]

I dont think so, he takes deeper drops than he should on a consistent basis and if his first read is covered he typically starts running around. Thats not built into the play, thats him bailing on plays quickly. It wouldnt fly with a conservative offense.

All of his dropbacks in the 2-minute/hurry-up prove that's not true. During those drives last game he never did any of that. His only mistake during that time was his INT (his prior INT was before they starting running the hurry-up). However, he didn't take any unnecessary steps and in fact looked better in the pocket, even stepping up several times and on one play stepping up and moving to his left on the long play to Fitz. He's not good taking drop-backs of 5 steps and planting off his back foot (he runs around, as you said), but he's fine when he's taking 3 and making a quick read and doing it.

I think it's because he doesn't trust the oline in 5 steppers and panicks, whereas when he's dropping in 3 and stepping up or moving around he feels more comfortable. His timing is just better on those short drops. He even said after the game he felt more comfortable in an up-tempo rhythm.

 

[clif]

In a word...practice. Clearly there is something going on in practice to dictate how much or how little the coaching staff needs to see of these guys in games to determine who will win this gig. I still hold out hope that whoever wins the lights will come on for. Why is it even a debate about who would be the starter if the competition is even remotely close? If Skelton doesn't nail it Kolb will win based on money. Fair or not.

 

[Phrazbit]

All of his dropbacks in the 2-minute/hurry-up prove that's not true. During those drives last game he never did any of that. His only mistake during that time was his INT (his prior INT was before they starting running the hurry-up). However, he didn't take any unnecessary steps and in fact looked better in the pocket, even stepping up several times and on one play stepping up and moving to his left on the long play to Fitz. He's not good taking drop-backs of 5 steps and planting off his back foot (he runs around, as you said), but he's fine when he's taking 3 and making a quick read and doing it.

I think it's because he doesn't trust the oline in 5 steppers and panicks, whereas when he's dropping in 3 and stepping up or moving around he feels more comfortable. His timing is just better on those short drops. He even said after the game he felt more comfortable in an up-tempo rhythm.

I am going to lean on his entire career as evidence as what he does rather than 5 plays in a preseason game. The guy drops back way too deep and bails on plays regularly, I dont see how thats even debatable.

 

[Cardiac]

And if we had used the F tag on Kolb we might have lost Campbell and I'm pretty sure the Cards knew when they made the Kolb deal that it was possible if not probable they'd be franchising campbell(since we were openly talking about it here at the time).

If you make a deal that involves a 2nd rounder and former 1st round pick you have to then make a commitment to the QB. You have to show him that you aren't just test driving him but you believe he's the guy. QB's play better when the team shows a commitment to them.

Fully agree Russ.

Mitch confuses me on this one because he is all about showing and giving confidence to the players, especially QB's, but wanted to nickle and dime Kolb.

.
Cardiac.... your comment about Phrazbits totured soul kept me reading this whole thread..... thanks for the lolz



.

Thanks. Gotta give some credit to Cbus who inspired me with his post about the girlfriend and mom and dog etc.

 

[Stout]

Despite what some may think I don't have a dog in this fight but I will say this. The drive before the end of the half was the best a QB has looked in Arizona in 3 years. if you disagree show me another 80+ yd TD drive where the QB went 5/5 since Warner. Won't happen.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but that's just silly, AF. I haven't seen the drive yet, so I'm not going to debate how good it was (or what string he was playing against), but if there's one thing Skelton has done well, it's lead solid drives late in the game to win the game. You're trying to use a preseason drive to support Kolb and completely discredit the one positive that no one can take away from Skelton. The fact that you and other Kolb supporters go on to attempt to discredit Skelton's work in the noted game is evidence of this. Neither one of our QBs is currently starter material, but let's not throw out silly statements like 'best drive in 3 years', eh?

Not trying to just jump you on this thread or anything, but that statement wasn't up to your usual standards, bro.

 

[Russ Smith]

Fully agree Russ.

Mitch confuses me on this one because he is all about showing and giving confidence to the players, especially QB's, but wanted to nickle and dime Kolb.



Thanks. Gotta give some credit to Cbus who inspired me with his post about the girlfriend and mom and dog etc.

Yeah I was sort of being ironic since I don't really think giving a guy a big contract makes a QB play better. But I did find it ironic that Mitch keeps complaining the Cards don't commit to Skelton to instill confidence, and then is complaining they did precisely that to Kolb.

To be clear, I agree with Phrazbit and Steve that picking up the bonus after last year was probably a huge mistake. If you're going to pick up that bonus, you have to be sure he's your QB, we clearly weren't or there would never have been a question who was the starter going into this season.

They gave him the new contract because they thought he was the guy, that's what you do when you think you have the guy, and the idea that you trade for him and use the F tag next year to keep him would have been destroyed on this board because we all knew then we'd probably have to use the tag on Campbell.

 

[kerouac9]

Ok haha fair enough. Doesn't change that Kolb consistently hits more throws then Skeleton does to keep a drive moving. The drive you reference above is few and far between with Johnny. The SF and Cinnci games quarterbacked by OL JS was some of the worst and most frustrating QB play I have ever witnessed. If Kolb can stay healthy, he is the more consistent Quarterback. Problem is he probably can't stay healthy.

So fear not conspiracy theorists and Skeleton backers. Even If Kolb is named the starter hell inevitably get injured and John cam get his shot. Again.

I think you're suffering from quite a bit of recency bias here, AZF. If Kolb were actually capable of doing this on a regular basis, he wouldn't only not be in a QB competition right now, he would've lead the Cards to the playoffs. QBs who can consistently keep drives moving don't start their careers 3-12 as starters (or whatever his record is).

I know it's painful, but really go back and look at the play-by-play notes from the Dallas game and the Washington and Giants games where Kolb apparently played "really well" and then got let down by the defense. The consistent drives where Kolb was "moving us down the field" just aren't there. It's a succession of three-and-outs with a 49-yard reception by Fitz mixed in here and there.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah I was sort of being ironic since I don't really think giving a guy a big contract makes a QB play better. But I did find it ironic that Mitch keeps complaining the Cards don't commit to Skelton to instill confidence, and then is complaining they did precisely that to Kolb.

To be clear, I agree with Phrazbit and Steve that picking up the bonus after last year was probably a huge mistake. If you're going to pick up that bonus, you have to be sure he's your QB, we clearly weren't or there would never have been a question who was the starter going into this season.

They gave him the new contract because they thought he was the guy, that's what you do when you think you have the guy, and the idea that you trade for him and use the F tag next year to keep him would have been destroyed on this board because we all knew then we'd probably have to use the tag on Campbell.

Just a fun counter-factual to consider--if we didn't commit $10 million in payroll to Kolb in late July, doesn't it make it easier to get a deal with Campbell mid-season? I think it wasn't until late October that the Cards opened negotiations with Calais on an extension, and it became pretty clear that the Cards were going to have to place the Tag on him.

The extension was absolutely the right thing to do. A team can't make that trade if they're not convinced that Kolb is going to be The Guy. If you know that he's going to be The Guy, you have to make sure you lock him up. AND it's a good deal if Kolb turned out to be adequate. Problem is, Kolb has been the magic beans that Andy Reid sells to some desperate team every eight years.