Conflicting Logic

[Mr. Boldin]

Below are some statements/rumors which have been snowballing since the combine. Many of them make no logical sense, at least the way I view them.

Do you agree or disagree on any/all if these based on my viewpoint?

1. Rule #1 about the draft is don't believe anything you hear leading up to night 1

I've listened to multiple podcasts (Matt Miller) and other seemingly knowledgeable talking heads make this statement. Which makes complete sense to anyone who has followed any draft in NFL history.

However, on multiple occasions these same people, even directly after making this comment say... The Cardinals are definitely drafting Murray and trading Rosen.

How does the logic fit there unless everyone in the entire league believes Murray to the Cardinals as a lock. If so, why?

2. The fact that Rosen doesn't fit KK's system and Murray does

What we know about KK is that multiple QBs have performed very well in his system and the majority of them do not have the athleticism, nor willingness to run/scramble.

What was the grand total of rushing yards by QBs under KK? Under 700 total?

Obviously, Murray didnt need to run to be effective throwing the ball at OU. Many people list him as the perfect "fit" for KK's system, despite KK's QB history, his own quotes about designing an offense around his QB, and the fact Murray is a tiny QB.

3. Rosen would be a perfect fit on X team, not named the Cardinals

The rumors circling about the Giants, Patriots, Patriots, Redskins, Dolphins, ect. And Rosen being a great fit in those systems and franchises are endless.

Why is he such a better fit on a different team, but not the Cardinals? Especially in a system we haven't seen on the field yet.

4. Rosen is on a great deal because the Cardinals paid off most/all? Of his bonus money

If this is the case, and cap wise he's a steal, why are we moving off him?

5. I can't believe the Cardinals would do this in the open for Josh Rosen to see. He must be upset

We are to believe, according to some, that Rosen either doesn't know what's happening, is now alienated by the franchise because of the Murray and trade talks, or we are keeping him up to date and honest about the process.

Nobody in the media EVER mentions the possibility this could be one huge smokescreen.

Rosen has been labeled as a .right person, an intellectual. Why is it so difficult to believe he is on board with a long con here? If anyone had the ability to see the vision and potential of a giant smokescreen, wouldn't it be Rosen? Why are we so sure he isn't in on this as the franchise QB, one who realizes how any extra picks in a trade down can benefit him and the franchise.

Hell, this is the guy who literally said he understands that people's jobs are on the line based on his play.


So what do you think? Am I being naive or is there an exorbitant amount of conflicting Logic?

 

[oaken1]

lets not forget that coach KK has not even spent any time on the field with Rosen yet either. hard to get a feel for a guy when you have never even seen him practice or interact with his team mates

 

[GuernseyCard]

You are right, IMO.

Additionally, Rosen has a say in this in the practical sense.

Pittsburgh had a deal to send A. Brown to Buffalo. He said no, and they had to find a landing spot.

What if Rosen says he's not interested in sitting around for 2, 3 years behind a Brady, Manning, etc.? Well, one can be fairly certain that those teams are not making the trade.

Just to say, that this could be a bit more complicated.

 

[TheCardFan]

You are right, IMO.

Additionally, Rosen has a say in this in the practical sense.

Pittsburgh had a deal to send A. Brown to Buffalo. He said no, and they had to find a landing spot.

What if Rosen says he's not interested in sitting around for 2, 3 years behind a Brady, Manning, etc.? Well, one can be fairly certain that those teams are not making the trade.

Just to say, that this could be a bit more complicated.

I don't think he has that kind of leverage. The alternative would be staying in AZ as the clear back-up. I think he would rather be a back-up somewhere else for 1 year, knowing he will be the heir apparent.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I don't think he has that kind of leverage. The alternative would be staying in AZ as the clear back-up. I think he would rather be a back-up somewhere else for 1 year, knowing he will be the heir apparent.

Not saying he going to use this leverage, but, he has it.

 

[Zeno]

I don't think he has that kind of leverage. The alternative would be staying in AZ as the clear back-up. I think he would rather be a back-up somewhere else for 1 year, knowing he will be the heir apparent.

Yep. AB had the leverage in that any team taking him knew they'd have to renegotiate his contract, if he made it clear that he didn't want to be somewhere and would hold out rather than renegotiate then teams wouldn't touch him.

Also a second year player wouldn't have the leverage of a veteran multiple pro bowler.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Yep. AB had the leverage in that any team taking him knew they'd have to renegotiate his contract, if he made it clear that he didn't want to be somewhere and would hold out rather than renegotiate then teams wouldn't touch him.

Also a second year player wouldn't have the leverage of a veteran multiple pro bowler.

In practice, he does.

If Rosen through his agent makes it clear that he won't play for team X or Y, you can be certain those teams won't make the trade.

 

[ARZCardinals]

You make very good points

Only issues I see
AB I believe had a no trade clause he had to waive AND/or what Zeno

Rosen is incredibly smart...every coach has said he's one of the smartest QB's they've been around so he may be in on it too...as I'm sure KK and Keim are talking to Rosen on almost a daily bases re: playbook or how to handle the draft process.

You are also correct re: smokescreens are everywhere during this time of the year.

I like the fact the Cardinals are getting the media hype....it's been more in one month then they've gotten in 5 years.

I do believe that the Cardinals are going to go after Murray and trade Rosen for a mid 1st round pick. IMHO the traction for a Rosen trade is right on track...the media suddenly has 3 teams interested in Rosen 4 weeks till the draft...just seems like the ducks are in a row.

If the Cards pass on Murray it'll be the greatest smokescreen the Cardinals have ever done.

 

[ARZCardinals]

In practice, he does.

If Rosen through his agent makes it clear that he won't play for team X or Y, you can be certain those teams won't make the trade.

That'd be the worst thing a rookie QB could do. You take what's handed to you and you do your best with it. By talking to the media and knocking a team only harms his value now and forever.

Never forget there are only 32 starting QB's in the NFL...be blessed you have one of them. The second you feel 'entitled' to the job....you'll be holding a clipboard.

 

[Southpaw]

I hate myself for even speculating on this, but if ( ) Cards take Murray #1, who says he starts Day 1/Year 1? Name the QB who stepped in day 1 in the NFL and succeeded beyond expectations.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I hate myself for even speculating on this, but if ( ) Cards take Murray #1, who says he starts Day 1/Year 1? Name the QB who stepped in day 1 in the NFL and succeeded beyond expectations.

Hey! Get with the program.

We're talking about Mighty Mouse, a talent not seen in the 100-year history of the NFL.

 

[Harry]

1. The Cards have deliberately told people they’d take Murray. No reason to believe or disbelieve that.
2. The Murray fit comes from his unusual accuracy when throwing on the run.
3. You are right if Rosen is as good as advertised he can play anywhere.
4. Rosen is a bargain
5. Most players know this can just be posturing. If the Cards get a great offer to trade down and draft well Rosen will be happy. They may even have told him it’s a ploy.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

1. The Cards have deliberately told people they’d take Murray. No reason to believe or disbelieve that.
2. The Murray fit comes from his unusual accuracy when throwing on the run.
3. You are right if Rosen is as good as advertised he can play anywhere.
4. Rosen is a bargain
5. Most players know this can just be posturing. If the Cards get a great offer to trade down and draft well Rosen will be happy. They may even have told him it’s a ploy.

Thanks for that. My question to you is this:

Do you think Murray's "fit" in KK's system outweighs what we've seen thus far from Rosen? I know its not a apples to apples comparison, but I've appreciated your breakdowns of QB prospects the last few years.

 

[Ohcrap75]

Below are some statements/rumors which have been snowballing since the combine. Many of them make no logical sense, at least the way I view them.

Do you agree or disagree on any/all if these based on my viewpoint?

1. Rule #1 about the draft is don't believe anything you hear leading up to night 1

I've listened to multiple podcasts (Matt Miller) and other seemingly knowledgeable talking heads make this statement. Which makes complete sense to anyone who has followed any draft in NFL history.

However, on multiple occasions these same people, even directly after making this comment say... The Cardinals are definitely drafting Murray and trading Rosen.

How does the logic fit there unless everyone in the entire league believes Murray to the Cardinals as a lock. If so, why?

2. The fact that Rosen doesn't fit KK's system and Murray does

What we know about KK is that multiple QBs have performed very well in his system and the majority of them do not have the athleticism, nor willingness to run/scramble.

What was the grand total of rushing yards by QBs under KK? Under 700 total?

Obviously, Murray didnt need to run to be effective throwing the ball at OU. Many people list him as the perfect "fit" for KK's system, despite KK's QB history, his own quotes about designing an offense around his QB, and the fact Murray is a tiny QB.

3. Rosen would be a perfect fit on X team, not named the Cardinals

The rumors circling about the Giants, Patriots, Patriots, Redskins, Dolphins, ect. And Rosen being a great fit in those systems and franchises are endless.

Why is he such a better fit on a different team, but not the Cardinals? Especially in a system we haven't seen on the field yet.

4. Rosen is on a great deal because the Cardinals paid off most/all? Of his bonus money

If this is the case, and cap wise he's a steal, why are we moving off him?

5. I can't believe the Cardinals would do this in the open for Josh Rosen to see. He must be upset

We are to believe, according to some, that Rosen either doesn't know what's happening, is now alienated by the franchise because of the Murray and trade talks, or we are keeping him up to date and honest about the process.

Nobody in the media EVER mentions the possibility this could be one huge smokescreen.

Rosen has been labeled as a .right person, an intellectual. Why is it so difficult to believe he is on board with a long con here? If anyone had the ability to see the vision and potential of a giant smokescreen, wouldn't it be Rosen? Why are we so sure he isn't in on this as the franchise QB, one who realizes how any extra picks in a trade down can benefit him and the franchise.

Hell, this is the guy who literally said he understands that people's jobs are on the line based on his play.


So what do you think? Am I being naive or is there an exorbitant amount of conflicting Logic?

I have had the same thoughts/questions as you listed above. Unfortunately I can't answer these questions because of that. Enjoying the replies!

 

[Harry]

Thanks for that. My question to you is this:

Do you think Murray's "fit" in KK's system outweighs what we've seen thus far from Rosen? I know its not a apples to apples comparison, but I've appreciated your breakdowns of QB prospects the last few years.

The issue supposedly is how well can Rosen throw on the move? This is not the same as a running QB. I think Murray is better in throwing while moving, but I’ll take Rosen’s experience and polish. Rosen can read defenses better. Murray still locks on receivers. Rosen has seen the game speed NFL defenders play at and that adjustment takes some time. I know Rosen spent quite a bit of time on his back but he came in better able to move through receiver progressions. Murray’s the better athlete, but not by as much as you might think. Rosen has progressed more in the techniques needed to do well in the NFL.

 

[JosiahLee]

I hate myself for even speculating on this, but if ( ) Cards take Murray #1, who says he starts Day 1/Year 1? Name the QB who stepped in day 1 in the NFL and succeeded beyond expectations.

Can Newton off the top of my head. I watched it with my own eyes as he played lights out here in AZ in his debut.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Can Newton off the top of my head. I watched it with my own eyes as he played lights out here in AZ in his debut.

Matt Ryan led Falcons to playoffs as a rookie...lost to AZ in a great game.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Can Newton off the top of my head. I watched it with my own eyes as he played lights out here in AZ in his debut.

Cam absolutely destroyed the Cards defense in his very 1st game.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Krangodnzr]

The issue supposedly is how well can Rosen throw on the move? This is not the same as a running QB. I think Murray is better in throwing while moving, but I’ll take Rosen’s experience and polish. Rosen can read defenses better. Murray still locks on receivers. Rosen has seen the game speed NFL defenders play at and that adjustment takes some time. I know Rosen spent quite a bit of time on his back but he came in better able to move through receiver progressions. Murray’s the better athlete, but not by as much as you might think. Rosen has progressed more in the techniques needed to do well in the NFL.

I find it ironic you say this because Rosens #1 personal failing last season was that he often didnt see wide open receivers. He didnt look off safeties, so DBs usually knew where he was going with the ball.

One of the problems with evaluating Murray is that Lincoln Rileys play design often gets thr f
Primary receiver open, so Murray didnt have to go through his progressions too often. But there are quite a few instances of Murray doing this as well. You also see him look off safeties, so he apparently understands this concept already.

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

I guess another question seeing as everybody is saying that you have to tailor the offense around Murray so what happens when a different coach with an entirely different system comes uh let me guess another QB and yet another Merry go round remember this is the Cards here Not the Patriots