Cool, Calm Collective - Leinart - It's Time

[Perfectionist]

I'm especially disappointed in the penalties because it seemed that the team had finally started to play a much more disciplined brand of football.

That is totally true and one of the most frustrating part of the game. This team had better get over the super bowl and get focused on what is at hand. We are supposed to be getting better, I hope the third preseason game is a mighty wake up.

 

[Buckybird]

Pace has been gone for two off seasons and we still don't have even a decent outside pass rushing threat. Why?

Heck, Since Simeon Rice left after the 2000 season Bertran Berry is the only Cardinal to record double digit sacks in one season. ONE GUY in 9 seasons! Come on Keim get busy.

Just proves how valuable those guys are, you know it and I know it. Edge pass rushers are a special breed and are the 2nd most important player on a team behind a great QB. If this team #1 priority next offseason isn't getting 2-3 of these guys on this club, heads should roll!!!

 

[Duckjake]

Just proves how valuable those guys are, you know it and I know it. Edge pass rushers are a special breed and are the 2nd most important player on a team behind a great QB. If this team #1 priority next offseason isn't getting 2-3 of these guys on this club, heads should roll!!!

Sadly it should have been our #1 priority the last two seasons. In fact it really makes me wonder what happened with the team and Calvin Pace. How do you let a guy like that go if you are really committed to the 3-4.

Must be more to the story than we know.

However, Beanie Wells may turn out to be a tremendous consolation prize.

 

[Buckybird]

Sadly it should have been our #1 priority the last two seasons. In fact it really makes me wonder what happened with the team and Calvin Pace. How do you let a guy like that go if you are really committed to the 3-4.

Must be more to the story than we know.

However, Beanie Wells may turn out to be a tremendous consolation prize.

Yes he might, but that still doesn't keep us from having to throw up 30 pts a game every week.

I know its hypothetical and isn't going to happen, but how much better would this TEAM be if it was able to trade Boldin for Demarcus Ware? All the great defenses have that 1 guy as a pass rusher who has to be accounted for every play, a guy who will get 10 sacks every year. Not us!!!

 

[82CardsGrad]

That was Whisenhunt that did the remarkable with the Cardinals. Warner did nothing remarkable in his first 2.5 years with the Cards. It was Whisenhunt who came in and developed the Kurt Warner we saw for the last 25 games or so.

(Sadly if you really want to look at it except for the last 5 games of last season what Warner did would be normal for any decent NFL team but the Cards.)

Even then this is not really Warner's team. He is the starting QB but this is not his team. This is Whisenhunt's team. I don't think any player has stepped up to make this "his" team. If they had maybe we wouldn't see games like Philly, NE, Minnesota or last night.

Right now Warner is the best QB for our style offense. Leinart will be the best QB for our style offense next year when Whiz finally has his stud hosses, BWells and Hightower, experienced and ready to run the rock.

Geez... It's amazing how amped we get... Duck, this is all about opinions, right? IMO, Warner is the leader ON THE FIELD. Yes, of course this is Whiz's team. Just like the Steelers were Knoll's team or Cowher's team, or the Cowboys were Landry's team or Johnson's team, or the Giants were Parcells team and the Pats are Belecik's team... I'm not doubting that at all.
And c'mon man - saying Warner's performance last season was "normal" is simply stupid... You're better than that dude...

 

[MigratingOsprey]

I'm sure you think Seneca Wallace is headed for stardom after Hassellbeck leaves too.

nice try, but absolutely not

seneca is what he is - a backup QB who has learned the system

he has a good arm and great legs - his main problem is that he has trouble reading defenses and seeing the field

this limits him to which options he can choose, even if a guy gets open it doesn't mean that seneca can see him or have a passing lane to get to him

look at some of the throws seneca has to make off his back leg or while giving a little hop in the air to get the ball over defenders

i'm comfortable if he needs to play 2-4 games a year as there are definitely worse backups, but he's not a starting QB for a good football team

i still think leinart is also not a starting QB for a good football team

i believe the reason why warner will make your offense work 10X better than matt is that warner has a very good combination of a quick release, strong arm and accuracy

how many times has boldin scored TDs or gotten big first downs on short yardage just by stepping off the line, immediately having the ball and then being a beast to tackle?

how many times does fitzgerald get the ball coming right out of his break, full legs working and just terrorize people

those plays are about impossible to stop when done in rythmm .... with leinart all i've ever seen from him are passes that get there not on time and not right where the guy can take the ball without breaking stride

but hey, i can't fault you guys for being excited .... i've routed for everything from rick mirer to jon kitna to jeff kemp and a geriatric warren moon with some level of excitement

just my opinion on it and what I see - doesn't make it wrong, doesn't make it right - just MHO

 

[Stout]

Stout, I'm not gonna "lambast" you as first off, you're entitled to your opinion. One that I most often agree with...
Second, I am not a Warnerphile... For me, I look at this way:

Warner has done things with this team that past 2 years that are nothing short of remarkable. He has more than earned the right to be the teams' leader. And I will cut him all the slack a potential hall of famer deserves until such time, when the W's and L's actually matter, he proves he is truly incapable of getting the job done...
More importantly, I just can't believe that you and so many other smart football guys have spent anytime at all discussing Warner after the game last night, when the defense was nothing short of horrific!
But - to each his own...

There's a problem with this. The past 2 years are nothing short of remarkable, but they are nothing relating to THIS season either. The defense was nothing short of horrific, and I am talking about that as well on other threads, but it has nothing to do with Warner's performance last night. Nothing at all.

Warner looks old, slow, and gimpy. That's why I'm worried, and that's why others are worried too. It has nothing to do with whether or not the games count. It has to do with how he is playing. I think it's the hip, but I PRAY he's just getting into synch and will end up fine for the regular season, because if it's the hip, we probably can't expect any improvement. Injured is injured, after all.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I am worried.

 

[Buckybird]

nice try, but absolutely not

seneca is what he is - a backup QB who has learned the system

he has a good arm and great legs - his main problem is that he has trouble reading defenses and seeing the field

this limits him to which options he can choose, even if a guy gets open it doesn't mean that seneca can see him or have a passing lane to get to him

look at some of the throws seneca has to make off his back leg or while giving a little hop in the air to get the ball over defenders

i'm comfortable if he needs to play 2-4 games a year as there are definitely worse backups, but he's not a starting QB for a good football team

i still think leinart is also not a starting QB for a good football team

i believe the reason why warner will make your offense work 10X better than matt is that warner has a very good combination of a quick release, strong arm and accuracy

how many times has boldin scored TDs or gotten big first downs on short yardage just by stepping off the line, immediately having the ball and then being a beast to tackle?

how many times does fitzgerald get the ball coming right out of his break, full legs working and just terrorize people

those plays are about impossible to stop when done in rythmm .... with leinart all i've ever seen from him are passes that get there not on time and not right where the guy can take the ball without breaking stride

but hey, i can't fault you guys for being excited .... i've routed for everything from rick mirer to jon kitna to jeff kemp and a geriatric warren moon with some level of excitement

just my opinion on it and what I see - doesn't make it wrong, doesn't make it right - just MHO

Hey, everyone has their opinions and I think Matt will rock solid once he gets another season in action under his belt. Remember, Matt has only started 16 games in this league so he still has some growing to do on the field with the bullets flying.

 

[Duckjake]

Geez... It's amazing how amped we get... Duck, this is all about opinions, right? IMO, Warner is the leader ON THE FIELD. Yes, of course this is Whiz's team. Just like the Steelers were Knoll's team or Cowher's team, or the Cowboys were Landry's team or Johnson's team, or the Giants were Parcells team and the Pats are Belecik's team... I'm not doubting that at all.
And c'mon man - saying Warner's performance last season was "normal" is simply stupid... You're better than that dude...

You are totally missing the point on my opinion. Kurt Warner is not a leader type QB. Therefore this is not his team. Not like the Ravens for instance were Ray Lewis' team. Or the Cowboys were Roger Staubach's team.

Warner's numbers last season were very good. But were matched by other QBs. We think they were remarkable because we are Cardinal fans and used to mediocre or worse performances. They are the kind of numbers Colts fans expect Peyton Manning to put up every year. Drew Brees has done it 3 years in a row. Brett Farve did it at 38 in 2007 with the Packers. It wasn't even Warner's best season as a pro.

The thing that Warner did last season that was truly remarkable was the 4th quarter drive vs the Eagles. He could have had a QB rating of 70 and still had a remarkable season for that alone. HOF time drive.

 

[82CardsGrad]

There's a problem with this. The past 2 years are nothing short of remarkable, but they are nothing relating to THIS season either. The defense was nothing short of horrific, and I am talking about that as well on other threads, but it has nothing to do with Warner's performance last night. Nothing at all.

Well, guess that's where we differ most then because in my opinion, "this season" hasn't started yet...

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I read about 1/2 this thread before watching the replay and expected to see Warner look terrible. I have to say i was surprised. To me, Warner looked about the same. Doucet and Urban had a couple drops but i didn't see any major dropoff. He was hittng guys in stride. The Cards haven't thrown it downfield much this pre-season but there's really no reason to. Other than Woodson coming in free a couple times, i wasn't disappointed at all. Of course, i'm not one to put any credence to anything that happens in pre-season. Leinart looked great but there's no way the Cards are handing him the starting job. NOt with the contract they just gave Warner and his popularity. It's all a good thing,Leinart looks like he's capable to come in and the team doesn't miss a beat. Remember, it pre-season. Sean Morey had more catches last night than he will the entire year.

 

[Buckybird]

I read about 1/2 this thread before watching the replay and expected to see Warner look terrible. I have to say i was surprised. To me, Warner looked about the same. Doucet and Urban had a couple drops but i didn't see any major dropoff. He was hittng guys in stride. The Cards haven't thrown it downfield much this pre-season but there's really no reason to. Other than Woodson coming in free a couple times, i wasn't disappointed at all. Of course, i'm not one to put any credence to anything that happens in pre-season. Leinart looked great but there's no way the Cards are handing him the starting job. NOt with the contract they just gave Warner and his popularity. It's all a good thing,Leinart looks like he's capable to come in and the team doesn't miss a beat. Remember, it pre-season. Sean Morey had more catches last night than he will the entire year.

I didn't think Kurt threw the ball bad last night either. My concerns were his protection of the ball. Penalties, drops and his fumble kept the 1st team from scoring points last night.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You are totally missing the point on my opinion. Kurt Warner is not a leader type QB. Therefore this is not his team. Not like the Ravens for instance were Ray Lewis' team. Or the Cowboys were Roger Staubach's team.

Warner's numbers last season were very good. But were matched by other QBs. We think they were remarkable because we are Cardinal fans and used to mediocre or worse performances. They are the kind of numbers Colts fans expect Peyton Manning to put up every year. Drew Brees has done it 3 years in a row. Brett Farve did it at 38 in 2007 with the Packers. It wasn't even Warner's best season as a pro.

The thing that Warner did last season that was truly remarkable was the 4th quarter drive vs the Eagles. He could have had a QB rating of 70 and still had a remarkable season for that alone. HOF time drive.

How many years did Staubach "lead" his team? Or Ray Lewis for that matter?
Kurt has essentially been starting for the Cards for 1 1/2 years now. And IMO, in that SHORT time, he's assumed as much of a leadership role from a players perspective as any other member of this team.

With respect to his numbers, I don't have the time and patience to dig deep and uncover where his #'s place him over the last 1 1/2 seasons, but my hunch is that he's at the very top.
Last season alone, he ranked 2nd in the entire NFL for Yards, Completions, Completion %, Yards per Game, TD's and was 3rd in QB Rating.
His numbers last season were beyond "very good" and were only matched by 1 or 2 other QB's in certain categories... Brees for instance was ahead of Kurt in Yards, Completions and TD's. Pennington was #1 in Completion % and Rating... But Kurt was the only one who was in the top 3 in all of those categories... How you can consider that "normal" is entirely lost on me.

Anyway, as I said, I am far from a Warnerphile but have again found myself defending the man. Ridiculous...

 

[Duckjake]

I read about 1/2 this thread before watching the replay and expected to see Warner look terrible. I have to say i was surprised. To me, Warner looked about the same. Doucet and Urban had a couple drops but i didn't see any major dropoff. He was hittng guys in stride. The Cards haven't thrown it downfield much this pre-season but there's really no reason to. Other than Woodson coming in free a couple times, i wasn't disappointed at all. Of course, i'm not one to put any credence to anything that happens in pre-season. Leinart looked great but there's no way the Cards are handing him the starting job. NOt with the contract they just gave Warner and his popularity. It's all a good thing,Leinart looks like he's capable to come in and the team doesn't miss a beat. Remember, it pre-season. Sean Morey had more catches last night than he will the entire year.

I agree. But like Stout keeps saying, Kurt just doesn't look like he's moving 100%. He looks like the hip is bothering him. We're not saying he doesn't deserve to be #1, (One of the odd things about this board is that its almost like a civil war, if you are for Warner you are against Leinart and vice versa instead of being excited we have two good QB's instead of none), just that we are concerned that age and injury may have caught up with Kurt.

 

[Duckjake]

How many years did Staubach "lead" his team? Or Ray Lewis for that matter?
Kurt has essentially been starting for the Cards for 1 1/2 years now. And IMO, in that SHORT time, he's assumed as much of a leadership role from a players perspective as any other member of this team.

With respect to his numbers, I don't have the time and patience to dig deep and uncover where his #'s place him over the last 1 1/2 seasons, but my hunch is that he's at the very top.
Last season alone, he ranked 2nd in the entire NFL for Yards, Completions, Completion %, Yards per Game, TD's and was 3rd in QB Rating.
His numbers last season were beyond "very good" and were only matched by 1 or 2 other QB's in certain categories... Brees for instance was ahead of Kurt in Yards, Completions and TD's. Pennington was #1 in Completion % and Rating... But Kurt was the only one who was in the top 3 in all of those categories... How you can consider that "normal" is entirely lost on me.

Anyway, as I said, I am far from a Warnerphile but have again found myself defending the man. Ridiculous...

And Manning is in that area almost every year. Trent Green had numbers like that 5 years or so in a row in KC. Just stats that have been put up by many QBs over the years. Made remarkable by it being done for a formerly woebegone franchise.

If Kurt was a leader as you say we don't get beat 1000-7 by New England and crushed at home by the Vikings.

Kurt is not that kind of personality. He is the perfect QB for our system but he is not and never will be the leader of the team.

EDIT: I think we are getting hung up on semantics. To me Larry Fitzgerald had a remarkable post season because he had more yards than any other receiver in NFL history. 2000 yards rushing is remarkable. If Warner had thrown for 5500 yards or 50 TDs that would have been remarkable.

His numbers were great but not historical except in the context of the Arizona Cardinals.

 

[82CardsGrad]

And Manning is in that area almost every year. Trent Green had numbers like that 5 years or so in a row in KC. Just stats that have been put up by many QBs over the years. Made remarkable by it being done for a formerly woebegone franchise.

If Kurt was a leader as you say we don't get beat 1000-7 by New England and crushed at home by the Vikings.

Kurt is not that kind of personality. He is the perfect QB for our system but he is not and never will be the leader of the team.

EDIT: I think we are getting hung up on semantics. To me Larry Fitzgerald had a remarkable post season because he had more yards than any other receiver in NFL history. 2000 yards rushing is remarkable. If Warner had thrown for 5500 yards or 50 TDs that would have been remarkable.

His numbers were great but not historical except in the context of the Arizona Cardinals.

Manning is a frist ballot Hall of Famer, so it's kinda funny to see you consistely using him as a point of comparison to Warner...
Trent Green? His best season (2004), still fell short of the one Kurt put together last year. Meanwhile, that was Green's 4th consecutive season as a starter with the Chiefs.

 

[AZ Native]

I find it mildly amusing that the season Kurt takes us to the Super Bowl (6 months ago) is already lost in some people's memory and a great 2nd half by Matt (against scrubs) is cause to call it Matt's time. WOW!

'What have you done for me lately' mentality.

 

[Duckjake]

Manning is a frist ballot Hall of Famer, so it's kinda funny to see you consistely using him as a point of comparison to Warner...
Trent Green? His best season (2004), still fell short of the one Kurt put together last year. Meanwhile, that was Green's 4th consecutive season as a starter with the Chiefs.

Why is comparing one future hall of famer to another funny?

Should I only compare Warner with Shaun King or Jeff Blake or Josh McKown? Oh wait if I did it would make Warner's season remarkable in relation to what the Cardinals have done in the past.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Why is comparing one hall of famer to another funny?

Should I only compare Warner with Shaun King?

OK now I see why you think last season was remarkable.

No... like you said, maybe we got lost in semantics... You stated Warner's performance was "normal". Yet, you kept referencing Manning. I thought it was strange/funny, however, if you are suggesting that Warner on par with Manning, I think I understand what you were saying...

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I agree. But like Stout keeps saying, Kurt just doesn't look like he's moving 100%. He looks like the hip is bothering him. We're not saying he doesn't deserve to be #1, (One of the odd things about this board is that its almost like a civil war, if you are for Warner you are against Leinart and vice versa instead of being excited we have two good QB's instead of none), just that we are concerned that age and injury may have caught up with Kurt.

That is kind of strange. If you give Leianrt any credit, the Warner supporters are all over you. I don't get it. I'm with you and glad to have both guys that will keep the team in good hands. You would think people would embrace it. Just go back and look at guys we HAD to start over the years and maybe it will give people an appreciation of what the Cards now have. There was Rusty Lisch, Gary Hogeboom, Jeff Blake, McCown, Dave Krieg, and others.

If you want to get a pretty good perspective(and try not to ) look at this article that was written prior to last year and some of the names on it.

http://phoenix.fanster.com/2008/08/29/cardinals-quarterbacks-past-present-and-future/

 

[Duckjake]

That is kind of strange. If you give Leianrt any credit, the Warner supporters are all over you. I don't get it. I'm with you and glad to have both guys that will keep the team in good hands. You would think people would embrace it. Just go back and look at guys we HAD to start over the years and maybe it will give people an appreciation of what the Cards now have. There was Rusty Lisch, Gary Hogeboom, Jeff Blake, McCown, Dave Krieg, and others.

If you want to get a pretty good perspective(and try not to ) look at this article that was written prior to last year and some of the names on it.

http://phoenix.fanster.com/2008/08/29/cardinals-quarterbacks-past-present-and-future/

That threw me for a minute until I realized they were only including QBs that played in Arizona.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

You are totally missing the point on my opinion. Kurt Warner is not a leader type QB. Therefore this is not his team. Not like the Ravens for instance were Ray Lewis' team. Or the Cowboys were Roger Staubach's team.

Warner's numbers last season were very good. But were matched by other QBs. We think they were remarkable because we are Cardinal fans and used to mediocre or worse performances. They are the kind of numbers Colts fans expect Peyton Manning to put up every year. Drew Brees has done it 3 years in a row. Brett Farve did it at 38 in 2007 with the Packers. It wasn't even Warner's best season as a pro.

The thing that Warner did last season that was truly remarkable was the 4th quarter drive vs the Eagles. He could have had a QB rating of 70 and still had a remarkable season for that alone. HOF time drive.

You're underrating his performance. It wasn't very good, it was great. He had a couple of bad games, but we wouldn't have made it to the superbowl with 95% of the other QBs in the league, including matty. Manning and Farve are headed to the hall of fame, so that's pretty heady company.

I don't want to get into a pissing match about how good or great Warner was last year, so let's just agree to disagree right now.

 

[Duckjake]

Your underrating his performance. It wasn't very good, it was great. He had a couple of bad games, but we wouldn't have made it to the superbowl with 95% of the other QBs in the league, including matty. Manning and Farve are headed to the hall of fame, so that's pretty heady company.

I don't want to get into a pissing match about how good or great Warner was last year, so let's just agree to disagree right now.

I disagree with everything you ever say so that's cool. My great grandfather taught me that regarding Sooner fans.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I find it mildly amusing that the season Kurt takes us to the Super Bowl (6 months ago) is already lost in some people's memory and a great 2nd half by Matt (against scrubs) is cause to call it Matt's time. WOW!

'What have you done for me lately' mentality.

I will give Warner 4 games before I ask for Leinart. He deserves AT LEAST that. If the Cardinals are 1-3 or 0-4 then yeah.

Honestly everyone should be happy Matt is doing well. It isn't a Warner versus Leinart thing. It is a damn aren't we lucky to have depth at the most vital position in football.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think you missed one by the OP.
???

General statement attacking no one and just bagging on bandwagon fans and attacking a poster directly.