Could someone give us their thoughts regarding the current roster of DT's

[spanky]

Everyone has their own ideas about what would constitute a "big league" defensive line........any combination of: pass rushing, run stuffing, play recognition skills etc. I know when I travel through Newark Airport, I think of calling Mac and telling him to get his ass up there.......everyone looks perfect for some part of the line.

What have we got heading into training camp DT wise? Bell; Davis;Tanner;Bryant;Dwyer; maybe King (if he doesn't make the grade at DE).......am I missing anyone? Questions: Who are the "run stuffers".....who are the "pass rushers". Are they really all that bad?

I'm think'in that Bryant turns out to be the best DT taken last year and that he is our bona fide DT pass rusher. He needs a "run stuffer" to sit beside him.......who is our #1 for this position?

Last year we started 4-2 and our defensive line played (as America West like to say) above and beyond. Yes, they ran out of gas.....(whose line wouldn't have). But I don't think we are giving enough credit to what might be a pretty darn good unit this year. Our offense will stay on the field longer than in 10 years.....the players are gaining experience quickly......augers better than for many years.

What's everyone's take on the starting defensive front line....who are our depth players? I haven't heard boo about Dwyer.Was he worth a 4th round pick last year? Does he have a future? Remember, we gave up on Walker and he's turned into a starter. Whata'ya'all think.

Oh, and yes it's rained all afternoon.

Quack Quack.

 

[vince56]

It won't matter all that much until we stop this 2-gap read and react nonsense defense. We now have some attacker-style defensive linemen and LBs in Bryant, Pace, Thompson, and Fisher (maybe King and Johnson too), and we need to have them attack 1 gap, explode through their OL and bull rush the QB. PLAY THE RUN ON THE WAY TO THE PASS. That's the kind of defense I like to see. Philly runs it, Tennessee runs it. Buddy Ryan's 46 was the extreme form of the 1 gap style. Let the defense dictate what the offense does. I've never been a fan of McGinnis' defensive schemes. Love the guy as a motivator and he seems like a great coach, but I sorely miss Buddy Ryan's defense from '94. That was just plain awesome.

 

[JeffGollin]

The run stuffers are supposed to be Bell and Tanner (with Dwyer added last year and maybe our UDFA Atoe part of the mix this year). Russell Davis is big enough but doesn't fit the profile.

Of this bunch (in my opinion)

- Tanner should be The Man because of his size, but tends to be up and down. (His overhanging gut has also been noted by some observers)

- Davis isn't exactly small and will be singled out 2 or 3 times a season for running a ball carrier down from behind. But he tends to play high and gets turned away from the play by enemy blockers.

- Bell appears to be "most likely to stuff runs" and is best of the DT's at batting down passes - but in no way can he be described as a consistent barrier against the run who must be reckoned with.

- Dwyer still must be considered a newbie and, despite having noseguard qualities, hasn't done very much.

- Atoe is unproven - but looks like a widebody fireplug. Maybe he'll be the guy.

(Note - I don't view Wendell as a run stuffer - he's more of a quick, penetrating type expected to provide inside pressure on the QB. King is more like Wendell - both could also play outside as a strong side DE).

If I were building a defensive line, my ideal roster set up would include 3 very large immovable individuals who could take care of the inside run - period. (The extra guy is needed to provide rotation help and depth at a very physically demanding position).

Currently we have zero of these guys - let along 3.

 

[Goldfield]

Dwyer didnt do much last year, but has a very big frame. IMO he looked like a white Lenard Davis, when you are talking about wide body... Maybe there is still hope for him.

With Pace at RE we should be better vs both the RUN and PASS... Bryant hopfully isnt a bust, and can provide A nice puch in the pocket at the DT spot. VDB, has another year under his belt for experience AND rehab, so he should be at least a very solid hard working DE. So our weakest spot IMO is at the final DT spot.

Using Tanner on rushing downs, will be ok for now IMO. But he gets no pass rush in...

I dont know how improved Johnson will be but if he can be an affective pass rusher you can put him in at VDB spot, and either try Wakefield or VDB at the DT spot...

But the most important part of hte Line this year is that we should have help from 2 1/2 more players... Pace, (regardless of what people say) WILL be an upgrade at DE, he is fast, strong, and very athletic. Next we get Bryant, He seems to be inshape and in minicamp, that alone "should" make him alot beter than last year. And finally VDB, he didnt play like he did his rookie year, if he can get back to his former self he will be much improved...

There is more hope than we think this year...

 

[WisconsinCard]

Hey you guys might laugh but I think the Gilbert Brown is still available. He can clog up the middle on first and second down if nothing else. Bring him in give him a look and see if he is any kind of shape to play. Ok send me the laughing face.....NOW!

 

[BW52]

I thought Gilbert Brown had a verbal agreement to sign with Green Bay.Maybe Atoe can be our run clogger? Anyone seen this guy play?

 

[Garthshort]

Dwyer

Beerz, are you sure that Dwyer is white? I thought I saw pictures of him and he looked black. Not that it matters. Just wondering.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by BEERZ
Dwyer didnt do much last year, but has a very big frame. IMO he looked like a white Lenard Davis, when you are talking about wide body... Maybe there is still hope for him.

There is still hope for him, but Davis as a comparison in body build?

?????????????????? ?????????????????

Maybe you mean the Pillsbury Dough Boy or Michelin Tire Guy instead?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
There is still hope for him, but Davis as a comparison in body build?

?????????????????? ?????????????????

Maybe you mean the Pillsbury Dough Boy or Michelin Tire Guy instead?

I was thinking the same thing!

 

[Russ Smith]

I think if this season falls apart(and I don't think it will) that the guy we should pick next year is Vince Wilfork of Miami, the perfect fit for this team's DL. Going to take a top 5 pick to get him I don't expect we'll be that bad of a team.


I expect this DL to be better but frankly I consider Bryant and Pace the keys to our DL and considering their lack of experience that's a bit scary. We need big improvements at both positions it sounds like Wendell is in shape and it sounds like Pace so far is impressing everyone so I have my fingers crossed.

 

[Goldfield]

haha, I knew the Davis thing was abit crazy. But the guy was very wide, and I dont mean floppy fat. It has been along time since I have seen him, but his size was very noticeable to me...

Yea I am 90% sure he is white, unless he is a light skinned black guy...

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by BEERZ
haha, I knew the avis thing was abit crazy. But the guy was very wide, and I dont mean floppy fat. It has been along time since I have seen him, but his size was very noticeable to me...

Yea I am 90% sure he is white, unless he is a light skinned black guy...

Nate Dwyer is a white guy.

 

[Goldfield]

Looks white to me...

Dwyer...

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Exciting!

Just like our WR group the defensive line has the most question marks surrounding it. The only difference is that our WR core has the potential to be great. While our defensive line could be at the very best, very good. But it will be exciting to see how Bryant plays, how Pace plays, how KVB plays, and for me personally how Marcus Bell, and the Red Baron plays!
So my thoughts are that I have no frickin' clue how they are going to do.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I think if this season falls apart(and I don't think it will) that the guy we should pick next year is Vince Wilfork of Miami, the perfect fit for this team's DL. Going to take a top 5 pick to get him I don't expect we'll be that bad of a team.


I expect this DL to be better but frankly I consider Bryant and Pace the keys to our DL and considering their lack of experience that's a bit scary. We need big improvements at both positions it sounds like Wendell is in shape and it sounds like Pace so far is impressing everyone so I have my fingers crossed.

Maybe and maybe not. The rumors going around that next years draft is chalk full of WR and LB. And we need a franchise MLB.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by RugbyMuffin
Maybe and maybe not. The rumors going around that next years draft is chalk full of WR and LB. And we need a franchise MLB.

Lance Mitchell. Oklahoma.

 

[mdamien13]

It looks like Mac's gotten close to his 700 lbs of ass. Unfortunately, he forgot to ask for 700 lbs of talented ass.

Our DTs have been the weak link in our D for the past few seasons. We have fast, undersized LBs who need the DTs to free them up to make plays and they haven't gotten the job done. I really hope Bell steps up and gets consistent cause he has shown some flashes of brilliance and Bryant has to be a starter for us to consider this unit any better than last year. I really hope Atoe can translate his workout numbers to the field but we'll see. If this unit is again the weak link in our D can we expect to see Mean Joe Greene replaced?

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Here's my take on the DTs and how I would rank them right now:

1. MARCUS BELL (6-2, 323). Moves very well for a man his size. Has NFL quickness. Good feet. Plays with above average strength and leverage. Excellent tackler. Needs to perfect rip and swim techniques. A little sloppy at times. Lacks stamina. Has not yet realized his potential. Could have a breakout year if he gets in tip-top shape. PROJECTION: Starter at RDT (4-3), NT (3-4). 3 down player due to interior rush skills, when in shape.

2. WENDELL BRYANT (6-4, 308). Has greatest upside of the bunch. Excellent athlete who has yet to adjust his skills to the NFL level. Has very good feet, but gets stood up too often. Needs to develop hand and upper body strength and generate better hip explosion. Sloppy tackler. Needs to play with better leverage and get off the ball more quickly. By all accounts, has been diligent in the off-season. PROJECTION: Starter at LDT (4-3), LDE (3-4). 3 down player who will most likely need a breather every third or fourth series.

3. BARRON TANNER (6-3, 347). Valuable line plugger in base and, most especially the goal-line defense. Good role player. Wide and strong. Needs to work on keeping his feet moving. Tends to sit down too much. Lacks the burst that all good DTs possess. Could improve, however, if he learns how to roll his hips more assertively and use his hands to create penetration and rushing room. PROJECTION: Two down and goal-line rotation player.

4. RUSSELL DAVIS (6-4, 306). Good athlete who lacks football toughness, both metally and physically. Does a poor job of taking plays straight on. Is more of a backside chaser and is good at it. However, part of the reason is that he gets stood up and sometimes knocked backward too easily, thus relegating himself to the role of a chaser. Should be athletic enough to rush the passer, but guards have a relatively easy time locking him up. PROJECTION: Probably the 4th DT, but not a lock, by any means, to make the team, despite the new contract (which is for a little over the veteran minimum anyway). Needs to play a more physical brand of football to stick, which has not been his forte to date.

5. FRED WAKEFIELD (6-7, 289). Versatile defensive lineman who may need to switch inside to stick. He's not fast or quick enough to be a productive DE. But, he's an aggressive player who knows how to keep blockers from getting into his waist due to his strong arms, upper body and hands. Is a pass deflector deluxe when he gets his arms up and in position, which is why he could have value as a rush DT. Good competitior. Needs to get off the ball faster and roll his hips more fluidly. Has to keep his feet moving, tends to stop them too soon. PROJECTION: On the bubble, especially since the Cardinals drafted two DEs in Pace and King. Can be a good role player and a special teams contributor.

6. NATE DWYER (6-3, 313). 2002 4th round draft pick who suffered from elevation sickness in camp and never quite recovered. Landed on the practice squad and was activated to the 53 man late in the year. When right, he's physical at the point of attack. Will challenge double teams and hold his ground. One of the better tacklers in the group. Has pretty good vision and plays low enough to pack a pop on the ball carrier. Health and stamina issues need to be solved. PROJECTION: Could be the reason why the Cardinals didn't draft another DT this year. May turn heads this summer.

7. RYAN ATOE (6-2, 314). UCFA with an intriguing combination of size, quickness and speed. Built like the ideal nose tackle. Haven't seen him play yet. If anyone has, could you give a report? His stats were impressive...six sacks last year. His workout numbers were also impressive. PROJECTION: Sleeper who certainly has a shot, especially if the 3-4 gets a good look in training camp.

 

[SECTION 11]

Walter is a freaking stud.

 

[conraddobler]

He is or we just don't know enough to know if he is or not. I frankly never watch the guys hips move.. or their feet. My guess is that he knows what he is talking about but I have no way of really knowing if he really knows.

I know Plummer can't pass.

I know you could knit a sweater during the time it took for our defense to get to the QB last year.

I know this is too long and leads to bad results.

 

[spanky]

Walter and others........just what I was after. So,barring the unforseen development, we have the following:

Defensive line starting unit in a 4-3: LDE/ KVdB; LDT/Bell; RDT/Bryant and RDE/Pace
Backups:Tanner/Dwyer
On the Bubbleavis/Wakefield and Atoe

Therefore. if our D-Line is to be anywhere near scary, we clearly need:a) KVdB to come to camp in A-1 physical shape and to improve from his SOMEWHAT IMPRESSIVE rookie year. Pace MUST turn into a starter. Bryant and Bell need BREAK OUT type seasons.

Our back-ups are SERVICEABLE.

Let's keep our fingers crossed for a healthy season......otherwise the secondary are going to be overworked again.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

Walter Mitchell....excellent post I have felt that since Marcus Bell returned after his elbow injury his rookie season, he was our best DT on the team. He has excellent explosion off the ball,( at training camp last year I witnessed him Throw Leonard Davis down like a pair of old jeans. I was extremely upset that in last years season opener he was'nt a starter. Then I realized he tends to play with his head down at times, & fails to use his hands at the point of attack. Which leads to his being blown of the ball sometimes. His short coming are directly related to technique & conditioning. If he can correct these flaws, I see pro bowl type talent out of him. Provided of course we scratch our current lame defensive philosophy. Gap Assignment 1st, recognition 2nd, pursuit 3rd, tackle 4th????? If we played penetration 1st, recognition 2nd, gap assignment 3rd, pursuit 4th, tackle 5th, our defense could be one of the better units in football. I too feel Wakefield would make us all proud if he moved inside to tackle. I've never seen him get man handled while playing DE, he uses his wing span to his advantage, but his lack of speed off the edge can't be ignored any longer!!!. agree with everything you said. I just realized this is my 200th post....I need to drink a beer or two,or three to celebrate!!!!