Crazy GM's

[George O'Brien]

I have to admit I don't understand NBA GM's. How is it that Jake Voskuhl gets a two year deal for $4 million and Lorenzen Wright is available for $6 million for two years? IMHO, Wright is vastly more talented than Voskuhl.

I get the impression that Wright's attitude has really hurt him, but he has OK career stats 8.8 ppg, 6.9 rpg in 25.5 minutes. Jake has career stats of 4.6 ppg, 3.8 rpg in 16.2 minutes per game.

 

[Louis]

I would've liked to see the Suns get Lil Jake.

He was a pleasure here and gave it his all on the court.

But they gave the 37 year old SF Polish Rifle that money and signed Sean Marks to "beef up" the frontline.

Granted Marks will be on the wings not in the paint, so Phoenix still needs a backup big who can play hard defense and rebound cause Burke ain't that guy.

 

[tobiazz]

Granted Marks will be on the wings not in the paint, so Phoenix still needs a backup big who can play hard defense and rebound cause Burke ain't that guy.

Marks will play the area just past the wing--the bench as it is called.

Little Jake didn't play in his final year here anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Louis]

Marks will play the area just past the wing--the bench as it is called.

Touche!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Marks signed for 900k, Little Jake signed for 2 mil.

I think I would rather pay 900K for a player to ride the bench than 2 million for a player to ride the bench.

But that's just me.

 

[Louis]

Tell that to the guy who paid the Polish Rifle. 1.1 and 1.2 aren't quite 2 million, but when your need is a backup PG and backup big...

 

[jbeecham]

Voshkul was a decent backup C (although he got called for a foul a minute). If we could trade Burke for him (and they were paid the same), I'd do it in a second.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Tell that to the guy who paid the Polish Rifle.

Hemorrhoids acting up or something Louis?

Pike signed for the vet minimum too. The Suns are out only around 750K for him (because of the league rules on vet min contracts). So the same comment applies.

We got two benchwarmers for the same price we would have had to pay for Voshkul, and Pike has more of a chance of getting minutes (although still very few) that Voshkul would have.

There's really not much to argue about here.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Voshkul was a decent backup C (although he got called for a foul a minute). If we could trade Burke for him (and they were paid the same), I'd do it in a second.

Sure, but the salaries are not the same. I'd do the same for Big Jake too.

In fact, I'd trade Burke for about anyone in the league with the same or greater salary.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Enjoying this little discussion, but I've got to go do a wedding. Be back in a couple of hours.

 

[Mainstreet]

In retrospect, that Q contract killed the Suns. It took a first round pick to move him for KT and it may cost the Suns another first round pick to move KT either this year or next. If such occurs, that's essentially giving up two first round picks that started with one bad signing... Q.

At least BC got Nash right.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

In retrospect, that Q contract killed the Suns. It took a first round pick to move him for KT and it may cost the Suns another first round pick to move KT either this year or next. If such occurs, that's essentially giving up two first round picks that started with one bad signing... Q.

At least BC got Nash right.

If you are going to go this path you might as well mention the #7 pick we moved in order to free up room to sign Q

 

[Mainstreet]

If you are going to go this path you might as well mention the #7 pick we moved in order to free up room to sign Q

 

[Joe Mama]

You to go hypothetical all day without one. I believe there's a good chance they would have re-signed JJ that summer if they had not signed Q for $48 million. He might have even agreed to the $45 million.

Joe

 

[Mainstreet]

You to go hypothetical all day without one. I believe there's a good chance they would have re-signed JJ that summer if they had not signed Q for $48 million. He might have even agreed to the $45 million.

Joe

Joe, I didn't think the ramifications of acquiring Q could get any worse. Apparently they can.

Actually the part about the Suns not being able to get insurance on Q's back was surprising to me when he was traded to New York.

Although I find the aspect of BC acquiring Nash supports him being voted Executive of the Year (whatever the title), however, the negatives concerning the Q acquisition detracts from this logic in the long run. Also, signing Amare to a max extension (apparently while experiencing knee problems and perhaps not being given a physical... ?) erodes BC as a GM.

However, I guess the Suns acquisition of Nash trumps all miscalculations.

 

[Errntknght]

You to go hypothetical all day without one.

Joe, can you remember what you were trying to say here? I'm guessing you meant 'You two' instead of 'You to' but even that doesn't help. I understood the post fine but I'm just puzzled about this.

 

[Joe Mama]

You to go hypothetical all day without one.

Joe, can you remember what you were trying to say here? I'm guessing you meant 'You two' instead of 'You to' but even that doesn't help. I understood the post fine but I'm just puzzled about this.

I think I was actually trying to say "you could go hypothetical..."

Damn voice software!

Joe

 

[JCSunsfan]

All of this discussion about Q's deal does teach us something. The worst thing in the NBA is to be saddled with a bad contract. A bad signing is way worse than no signing at all.

When we signed Q, most of us considered it a good signing. It was a little expensive, but we were convinced he was a quality player--I was on board with it.

That's why I am not really interesting in $8 million deals for Gooden or Wilcox. Some of the deals signed this summer are really going to come back and bite some GM's.

I wish we had JJ on this team, but if we had him at the deal he has now, we'd be in terrible shape.

Barbosa's deal seems reasonable. Its marketable by all appearances. Diaw shows all the signs of being good, but at 10 mil per year, his deal would be ours for the duration. It would be hard to move him if we wanted to.

He really ought to be thinking about whatever deal the Suns are offering. It doesn't hurt him to wait until October to squeeze out a little more, but if he is wise, he'll get it done by then.

If Diaw goes into this year without an extension, and then his minutes drop, or he doesn't perform as well as he did at the end of last year, or anything, his stock will drop dramatically. If he has a major injury, or even just a nagging injury like James Jones had this year, GM's will look at him as a flash in the pan.

Its a messy business, but it is much easier for a GM to destroy his team by paying too much, rather than paying too little.

 

[George O'Brien]

Obviously there is a degree. The Clips refusal to pay their players keep them in lottery land for decades. Still, the number of teams trying to get rid of bad contracts is probably the biggest problem in the NBA.

Emotion is often a big problem. Everyone congratulated the Jazz when they signed Boozer, but they have been trying to unload him for at least the last year. I think that everyone (not working for the Nuggets) knew the Kenyon Martin deal was a mistake from the beginning. IMHO, the need to do something "dramatic" is an emotional drive that leads to bad decisions.

 

[Errntknght]

I think you're right about emotional decisions, George, but you don't have to go further than the Suns to see them. I always thought the decisions to get Penny and Googs were emotional. In Penny's case it was because of the player he had been and in Googs, it was the reaction to losing McDyess.

I even considered Marion's and Marbury's extensions to be emotionally based. Particularly Marbury's - they wanted to pay him more than Jason Kidd was getting so they could say they had the 'best' PG - highest paid means best, right?

I believe that Barbosa's contract was emotionally motivated, too, the same way as Marion's was. Both were Suns draft picks and the more we pay them the more we confirm that we draft well. In Barb's case I think they also wanted to erase the lingering idea that they pinched 'pennies' in dealing with JJ last year and the year before. It's even possible that they are feeling like they cannot retain Boris and they wanted to salvage something quickly. Of course, there is some hope that Leandro will be worth his contract, unlike Shawn or Marbury.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not sure what a reasonable price for Leandro would be, but I'm not convinced he is wildly overpaid. Extensions are always about "potential" and the Suns like Leandro's potential.

Is Leandro WORTH an MLE contract? If he continues to put up his current stats, 13.1 ppg, 48.1% from the field, 44.4% for three; I'd say there is a reasonable chance he'd get that kind of offer next year.

Why sign a guy to an extension if you don't have to? It certainly protects the team if the guy's value explodes (the real fear with Boris), but it also removes a distraction if the amount is unlikely to be hugely different than what the final amount will be.

 

[Mainstreet]

...Of course, there is some hope that Leandro will be worth his contract, unlike Shawn or Marbury.

IMO, saying Shawn Marion is not worth his contract leaves me flabbergasted. I don't even think it's worth discussing that Marion has earned every penny he has received from the Suns even if it's a max contract. Of course it would have been nice to have retained him at a cheaper contract, but that's true of most players.

I hope, using whatever logic you apply, that you also believe Kevin Garnett is not worth his contract and that Steve Nash is vastly underpaid.

 

[George O'Brien]

IMO, saying Shawn Marion is not worth his contract leaves me flabbergasted. I don't even think it's worth discussing that Marion has earned every penny he has received from the Suns even if it's a max contract. Of course it would have been nice to have retained him at a cheaper contract, but that's true of most players.

I hope, using whatever logic you apply, that you also believe Kevin Garnett is not worth his contract and that Steve Nash is vastly underpaid.

It's very hard to say whether a guy who is playing well is worth his max contract. At any point in time there are very good players making a lot less money who might be considered better "deals". However, these guys are almost never available.

The flip side is to simply focus on what the player brings to the team. According to Hoopshype, Shaq is getting $20 million for each of the next four years. That's a lot of money for a guy who is constantly fighting conditioning problems and other health issues. But the Heat have a championship, so perhaps that makes him worth the price.

 

[Muggum]

I didn't get too outraged when Bryan Colangelo left the Suns, because I was never entirely sold on his abilities. Over the years, he made some great moves for us (drafting Amare and signing Nash were the two brightest, followed closely by the Delk/Rogers for Joe Johnson deal). But he also made some terrible, terrible decisions. Penny. Googs. Marbury. Q. Thankfully, we had the greater fool in Isiah Thomas to help mitigate those last two crummy signings. But that doesn't really excuse BC.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Being a great GM is as much about whom you *don't* sign as whom you do. The Nuggets tie up 24 million a year in Kenyon Martin and Nene? They're finished for the better part of a decade. Same with the Knicks for bringing in Marbury and Francis. And the Warriors for locking down Dunleavy, Foyle, and Davis.

Being a proactive GM is a good thing, to a point. But when you're signing non-difference-makers to huge contracts just because you have the cap space, you can get in serious trouble quickly.

I don't see Colangelo turning Toronto around unless he grabs a superstar in next year's draft. Of course, that's very possible. Next year's draft will be a huge windfall for at least three or four franchises. But I don't see Bargnani and Bosh ever rising to the top of an Eastern conference that features Wade and James, unless they're accompanied by an Oden type.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think you're right about emotional decisions, George, but you don't have to go further than the Suns to see them. I always thought the decisions to get Penny and Googs were emotional. In Penny's case it was because of the player he had been and in Googs, it was the reaction to losing McDyess.

I even considered Marion's and Marbury's extensions to be emotionally based. Particularly Marbury's - they wanted to pay him more than Jason Kidd was getting so they could say they had the 'best' PG - highest paid means best, right?

I believe that Barbosa's contract was emotionally motivated, too, the same way as Marion's was. Both were Suns draft picks and the more we pay them the more we confirm that we draft well. In Barb's case I think they also wanted to erase the lingering idea that they pinched 'pennies' in dealing with JJ last year and the year before. It's even possible that they are feeling like they cannot retain Boris and they wanted to salvage something quickly. Of course, there is some hope that Leandro will be worth his contract, unlike Shawn or Marbury.

EK. I disagree with almost every point in this post.

The Suns had targeted Googs BEFORE the Dice fiasco. They had intended to sign both players in that ill-fated off-season. He played well, too. Until injury ruined his career. Injury can ruin any career and make any signing look like a bad one.

I think its absolutely silly to think that the Suns were giving Marbs a max deal just to spite Kidd. Marbury was considered one of the top players in the game and a franchise player. He was also a good citizen with the Suns. I'm sure no one on either side of that deal would have considered anything less than a max deal. He imploded after the trade to NY. But none of that had anything to do with Kidd.

I don't see how the Barb's deal is emotional. They like him as a player. His contract is appropriate. How does that prove they arent penny-pinchers? Its a reasonable, marketable deal.

About Penny. I guess I agree with you on this one. All I can say is that JC and BC are gamblers. They had the money and he was the biggest name out there. They took the risk that he would return to health, and he seemed to for a while, but in the end, he was done. They just gambled and lost.