D-Backs and Pirates Series Thread

[Kel Varnsen]

@BertDbacks: #Dbacks RT/@azc_zachb: Crew chief Ron Kulpa: "It has to have been willful and deliberate with obvious intent to break up a double play..." Kulpa cont'd: "Guys slide into second base all the time with their hands up.”

"I have a 6:00 reservation at Donovan's."

 

[Azlen]

An article on the play from CBS.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on...tes-on-controversial-walk-off-fielders-choice

On one hand, the rulebook hand, runners are not allowed to intentionally interfere with a throw like that. On the other, almost every runner going into second base on a play like that throws up his arms on the slide, as Kupla says. That doesn't make it right, of course, but Ahmed isn't the only offender here.
I think Ahmed threw up his arm instinctually because that's what he's been taught for years now. It just so happened that he blocked the ball. Does that make it intentional? I guess so. That play happened way too fast for him to throw up his arm in the exact right spot to block the throw though.

 

[BC867]

It is ironic, isn't it, that after all this talk about retaliation, McCutchen (the Goldy of the Pirates) would be lost to injury about 24 hours after we lost Goldy for the season.

I wonder if it was brought on, in any way, by twisting (if he did) to avoid being hit in the back.

 

[AZ Native]

Looks like a great play

Yep, everything is relative.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Umps blew the call... It was very clear that Ahmed intentionally deflected the ball. Watch his hand - it's actually cupped toward the direction of where the ball was coming from. Had the umps reviews the replay, the call would've been turned over.
Nonetheless, we'll take a split with the Bucs...

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I'm not sure the umpire was even referring to the correct rule.

Crew chief Ron Kulpa disagreed, citing Rule 7.09 (f).

“The guy has to do something obviously, willfully, intentionally to break up the double play,” Kulpa said. “Guys slide into second base all the time with their hands up. It's a big play. We looked at the tape, and Lance got it right.”

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/6519771-74/pirates-diamondbacks-game#ixzz39NrvZBxH

7.09
It is interference by a batter or a runner when --
(a) After a third strike he hinders the catcher in his attempt to field the ball;
(b) Before two are out and a runner on third base, the batter hinders a fielder in making a play at home base; the runner is out;
(c) Any member or members of the offensive team stand or gather around any base to which a runner is advancing, to confuse, hinder or add to the difficulty of the fielders. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate or teammates;
(d) Any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;
Rule 7.09(d) Comment: If the batter or a runner continues to advance after he has been put out, he shall not by that act alone be considered as confusing, hindering or impeding the fielders.
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.
(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

What we need is a video compilation of Nick Ahmed slides. Would be easier if the Diamondbacks were more than a AAAA team.

 

[AZ Native]

I believe "willfully and deliberately interferes" is as tough to prove as fraud. What do you think, Mulli?

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I didn't get to watch most of the games because I don't have cable (only the mlb.tv package), but did hear about some of the controversial calls.

For what it's worth, here is a post from one of the Pittsburgh boards. Were these other calls really bad?

Btw, the ump who made the call is the same guy who called Polanco out on that pickoff attempt where he was clearly safe in game 1. He was also the same guy who missed the pitcher bunting at the ball and the ball hitting the pitcher in game 2.

Rough weekend, I suppose, but not as bad as the guy behind the plate today who caught that foul ball with his cup.

 

[don7031]

You are taught to raise an arm when sliding so you don't arch your back and bounce your head off the ground.

Ahmed did exactly what he supposed to do on that play. He slid at the second baseman and slid high.

The blame lies with the Pirates second baseman. The guy throws sidearm. If he isn't going to get across the bag, he needs to elevate to clear the runner. His throw went right over the top of bag and was low. He was relying on the runner to clear a path for his throw. And that is not how it works. If Ahmed did one of those slow and turn your back deals, Nix would have plunked him.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

You are taught to raise an arm when sliding so you don't arch your back and bounce your head off the ground.

Ahmed did exactly what he supposed to do on that play. He slid at the second baseman and slid high.

The blame lies with the Pirates second baseman. The guy throws sidearm. If he isn't going to get across the bag, he needs to elevate to clear the runner. His throw went right over the top of bag and was low. He was relying on the runner to clear a path for his throw. And that is not how it works. If Ahmed did one of those slow and turn your back deals, Nix would have plunked him.

If I recall correctly, Nix (who was actually acquired just today) was only playing because the Pirates had to move Michael Martinez to center field to replace McCutchen after McCutchen hurt himself (seemingly after trying to hit a 1000 foot home run because he was mad at Arizona). If Nix has a normal release point, the game is probably extended.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You are taught to raise an arm when sliding so you don't arch your back and bounce your head off the ground.

Ahmed did exactly what he supposed to do on that play. He slid at the second baseman and slid high.

The blame lies with the Pirates second baseman. The guy throws sidearm. If he isn't going to get across the bag, he needs to elevate to clear the runner. His throw went right over the top of bag and was low. He was relying on the runner to clear a path for his throw. And that is not how it works. If Ahmed did one of those slow and turn your back deals, Nix would have plunked him.

Yea... And as a shortstop who played trough college, we are taught to do exactly what Nix did - throw sidearm and low to force the runner to either move out of the way, of slide low and early to help avoid a runner barreling into you at the base.

 

[Mulli]

I believe "willfully and deliberately interferes" is as tough to prove as fraud. What do you think, Mulli?

Sure!

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Not that there was any doubt that McCutchen was hit on purpose, but here's more evidence.

By now, you’ve seen/heard about/thought about the Andrew McCutchen retaliatory hit by pitch on Saturday night. Pirate color guy Bob Walk went off about the situation, McCutchen was infuriated and rightfully so: the Diamondbacks waited until they were losing 5-1 in the ninth to get back at the Pirates for accidentally plunking Paul Goldschmidt on Friday. Rather than get their machismo show over with in the first inning and move on, they waited until they were down and out of the contest. And, the deliverer of the plunking, Randall Delgado, really set Cutch up — after coming inside on the first pitch, he wasted a slider low and away to make it look like nothing was up. Next pitch? 95 mph in the back.

Oh, and now there’s this — John Wehner brought to attention on the broadcast today before the game that you can see Arizona catcher Miguel Montero “put down an inappropriate finger and point it towards McCutchen” right before the HBP. If you watch it through again, Montero calls time after ball two and signals out to Delgado that he is going to re-cycle through the signs. He puts five different ones down; here’s the third one:

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http://fromforbestofederal.com/miguel-montero-puts-middle-finger-signal-cutch-retaliation/

How stupid is that?

 

[Mulli]

Oops.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Not that there was any doubt that McCutchen was hit on purpose, but here's more evidence.

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http://fromforbestofederal.com/miguel-montero-puts-middle-finger-signal-cutch-retaliation/

How stupid is that?

What's stupid about it??

 

[Kel Varnsen]

What's stupid about it??

Maybe "stupid" wasn't the right word, but what was the point of doing that? Why would you show the whole world that you're aiming at the hitter? This organization's reputation is already trashed, so why keep adding fuel to the fire?

 

[Dback Jon]

Maybe "stupid" wasn't the right word, but what was the point of doing that? Why would you show the whole world that you're aiming at the hitter? This organization's reputation is already trashed, so why keep adding fuel to the fire?

If this was RedSox-Yankmees, ESPN would be gushing at how heated the rivalry "Another Chapter in the storied history" and how right this was to do and how the Catcher didn't back down.


National Baseball Media sucks Donkey Butt

 

[unseenaz]

Maybe "stupid" wasn't the right word, but what was the point of doing that? Why would you show the whole world that you're aiming at the hitter? This organization's reputation is already trashed, so why keep adding fuel to the fire?

Everyone knew it was intentional anyways who cares

 

[82CardsGrad]

Maybe "stupid" wasn't the right word, but what was the point of doing that? Why would you show the whole world that you're aiming at the hitter? This organization's reputation is already trashed, so why keep adding fuel to the fire?

Seriously?? If anything, the Dbacks' rep was enhanced. When your sole stud gets hit and knocked out for the rest of the season, at a point in a game when the conclusion was already determined (therefore, no need to be pitching Goldy high and tight...), it would've been laughable had the Dbacks not retaliated.
The ONLY issue is that they waited too long to do it. Cutch should've been hit in his first at-bat. And I am 100% certain that he expected to be beaned in that first at-bat.

 

[Mulli]

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Is this the HBP of Goldy? Catcher barely has to reach for it. Almost over the plate.

Dbacks case is iffy.

 

[82CardsGrad]

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Is this the HBP of Goldy? Catcher barely has to reach for it. Almost over the plate.

Dbacks case is iffy.

The fact that the catcher barely had to reach for it means squat... The fact is that the game was over. The pitcher shouldn't have been pitching Goldy inside - period. And, bottom line is that Goldy is out for the season.
In baseball, that automatically means a retaliation. Period. Doesn't mean the Dbacks need to try to knock Cutch out for the season, just a simple, ordinary ball in the back beaning - which Delgado executed perfectly...

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Seriously?? If anything, the Dbacks' rep was enhanced. When your sole stud gets hit and knocked out for the rest of the season, at a point in a game when the conclusion was already determined (therefore, no need to be pitching Goldy high and tight...), it would've been laughable had the Dbacks not retaliated.
The ONLY issue is that they waited too long to do it. Cutch should've been hit in his first at-bat. And I am 100% certain that he expected to be beaned in that first at-bat.

Yes, if they were going to retaliate, they should have done in the first inning and been done with it. Waiting until the game was out of hand was classless and pointing at a player with your middle finger is just juvenile.

I'm not saying it is a huge deal, just that it reflects this organization as a whole. The Diamondbacks are widely disparaged in the national media for stuff like this and, frankly, it's embarrassing.

 

[Mulli]

Wait, you don't pitch inside late in a game? What? If Goldy is leaning out over the plate, he should know to watch out

 

[Mulli]

Yes, if they were going to retaliate, they should have done in the first inning and been done with it. Waiting until the game was out of hand was classless and pointing at a player with your middle finger is just juvenile.

I'm not saying it is a huge deal, just that it reflects this organization as a whole. The Diamondbacks are widely disparaged in the national media for stuff like this and, frankly, it's embarrassing.

Especially, when 82's guy Towers fired the pitching coach when the team didn't hit enough guys to his liking.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Yes, if they were going to retaliate, they should have done in the first inning and been done with it. Waiting until the game was out of hand was classless and pointing at a player with your middle finger is just juvenile.

I'm not saying it is a huge deal, just that it reflects this organization as a whole. The Diamondbacks are widely disparaged in the national media for stuff like this and, frankly, it's embarrassing.

The pointing of the middle finger was no doubt the official sign to throw at Cutch...
There was nothing embarrassing at all with what took place. The fact that they waited too long to hit Cutch can be questioned (and may have had something to do with Gibby being tossed early in the game), but most definitely not embarrassing.
There are plenty of other reasons to be embarrassed about this team... this ain't one of them...