dang it the more i see leinart

[Cheesebeef]

Leinart looked bad tonight.

Comparing him to Ryan Leaf, and Rex Grossman is ridiculous.

Plus coming from the usuall Leinart bashers who have not made sense in a month it means nothing.

what about coming from fans who are usually deemed "Warner bashers" like myself?

to be honest, again, I don't think it matters in the big picture because we ain't going anywhere with Warner either (and by anywhere, I mean the playoffs), but seeing how Leinart has played throughout the pre-season, I no longer have a problem with whatever decision Wiz makes, as I would have earlier. You just can't reward ineptitude just because it's young and is making a lot of money. I just think it sends the wrong message to the club from an organizational POV

 

[RugbyMuffin]

what about coming from fans who are usually deemed "Warner bashers" like myself?

Then it means a little bit more, of course.

But a person (whomever it may be) who has been taking one side of the conversation to level of insanity for the last month, on either side Leinart's or Warner's, is not making any points that are worth a darn at this point.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

to be honest, again, I don't think it matters in the big picture because we ain't going anywhere with Warner either (and by anywhere, I mean the playoffs), but seeing how Leinart has played throughout the pre-season, I no longer have a problem with whatever decision Wiz makes, as I would have earlier. You just can't reward ineptitude just because it's young and is making a lot of money. I just think it sends the wrong message to the club from an organizational POV

Agreed, and well put.

But being the optomist that I always have been.

I think Warner gives a chance at the playoffs.

Furthermore, I think we are concentrating on the wrong side of the ball. I believe our defense is going to get us to the playoffs.

 

[Chopper0080]

The problem that the Cardinals have had is that Leinert hasn't been healthy enough for them to truely evaluate him and they don't know what they have in him. Ideally you would love to trot him out this year for (hopefully) 16 games and just see how he does. Unfortunately having a capable backup like Warner makes it difficult to do this because you do want to win.

If I was Whiz and I was seriously considering starting Warner, I woul dhold off on the announcement and play Leinert the entire final preseason game. He needs the reps badly and if he does turn in an exceptional game, maybe he earns a start.

 

[moklerman]

He needs the reps badly and if he does turn in an exceptional game, maybe he earns a start.

Unfortunately for that idea, game 3 was the "last" chance for any kind of evaluation. The last preseason game is usually scrub city so it wouldn't really show much if the Cardinals played their "1's" against a bunch of scrubs. Leinart may do well but it wouldn't get the team any closer to an evaluation than they are now. He did well in a similar situation in game 1 vs. NO so it's hard to see the benefit of him possibly replicating that production in a similar situation.

Unfortunately, Matt isn't showing the mettle or grace that I would like to see from a QB. Dressing and bugging out of the locker room before he had to answer any questions about his performance isn't what I'd consider indicative of a bona fide, mature starting QB. I don't blame him and I'm sure the pressure and disappointment are overwhelming especially in comparison to his USC days but you just can't succumb to the peaks and valleys like that. When this is added to his questioned maturity in the first place, it seems that he might have a little more development needed.

I feel bad for the guy. The fact that he has feelings means he might be a good chap but this is my fear of expecting too much, too soon from him. The silver lining however, is that he could benefit from the timing of this situation much more than if it had happened in the early weeks of the regular season.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Unfortunately, Matt isn't showing the mettle or grace that I would like to see from a QB. Dressing and bugging out of the locker room before he had to answer any questions about his performance isn't what I'd consider indicative of a bona fide, mature starting QB. I don't blame him and I'm sure the pressure and disappointment are overwhelming especially in comparison to his USC days but you just can't succumb to the peaks and valleys like that. When this is added to his questioned maturity in the first place, it seems that he might have a little more development needed.

I feel bad for the guy. The fact that he has feelings means he might be a good chap but this is my fear of expecting too much, too soon from him. The silver lining however, is that he could benefit from the timing of this situation much more than if it had happened in the early weeks of the regular season.

Two good points.

1. I don't think Leinart has ever delt with this pressure. Especially the way things were always gum drops and candy canes at USC

2. He still has time to learn. It is absurd to read some of the crazyness on this thread. Steve Young, and Aaron Rogers were given plenty of time to develop. One bad preseason game and some are ready to throw Leinart out with the trash. IF Warner starts (waiting to hear from Whiz, but I am expecting to hear Warner will start, which is great) you stick with Leinart and let him continue to learn.

 

[cardsloco]

2. He still has time to learn. It is absurd to read some of the crazyness on this thread. Steve Young, and Aaron Rogers were given plenty of time to develop. One bad preseason game and some are ready to throw Leinart out with the trash. IF Warner starts (waiting to hear from Whiz, but I am expecting to hear Warner will start, which is great) you stick with Leinart and let him continue to learn.

This is my thinking exactly. While it might hurt his ego, ultimately I think it will make him stronger. He will realize that there is no shame in sitting behind a veteran with Warner's credentials. In the end I still think Leinart will be our QB of the future.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Don't read anything into my avatar, I'm far from a Plummer apologist, I just thought it was funny.

I want Matt to succeed for obvious reasons, but as its been pointed out by other posters, Leinarts strength was supposed to be his head, which supposedly made up for his noodle arm.

At this point, he has shown nothing to suggest he is a smart field commander, so what does he have?

First off, he has shown time and time again his arm strength is fine. No better or worse than a Tom Brady. Or Kurt Warner for that fact. If you are going to bash, then bash his horrible accuracy and decision making. At least that makes some sense.

It is not a JeMarcus Russell arm for sure...that was ridiculous to watch tonight.

As for never showing he is a field general. In my opinion he showed it in his rookie year, when he took over for Warner during his rookie year, I thought he showed a lot of leadership.

Right now. I think his confidence is shot. It happens. Especially after Warners magical end of the year, the constant questioning of his dedication, the constant waves of opinions that Warner should start this year, the offseason photo BS.

Finally, Jake Plummer? Seriously. Come on. As I said it took Plummer 4 years to improve to the point where Leinart is right now....and that is not a compliment.

 

[moklerman]

I wonder what's really happened to the promising young QB from 2006 and the unfortunate answer for Card's fans is that it might be Whis. Leinart may still be a starting QB in this league but he may not fit into what Whis wants to do or likes. Personally, I didn't think Leinart's game needed to be broken down and rebuilt after '06 and I really wonder if that decision has really messed him up. Chow was a good OC at USC and I thought Leinart was "NFL ready" coming from a pro system. Now, all the focus and work on his fundamentals has produced a rattled, flutter ball throwing mess. Obviously Whis wouldn't have taken Leinart if he didn't like how he was doing things but I really wonder if he would have made him start from scratch if he was "his guy".

 

[conraddobler]

I wonder what's really happened to the promising young QB from 2006 and the unfortunate answer for Card's fans is that it might be Whis. Leinart may still be a starting QB in this league but he may not fit into what Whis wants to do or likes. Personally, I didn't think Leinart's game needed to be broken down and rebuilt after '06 and I really wonder if that decision has really messed him up. Chow was a good OC at USC and I thought Leinart was "NFL ready" coming from a pro system. Now, all the focus and work on his fundamentals has produced a rattled, flutter ball throwing mess. Obviously Whis wouldn't have taken Leinart if he didn't like how he was doing things but I really wonder if he would have made him start from scratch if he was "his guy".

That was well put.

I have said before that I'm not yet a Matt basher at all and frankly I don't like Warner much, his fumbles and his give back game to the Rams nearly wanted to make me puke.

I really think Matt is a poor match for Whis, they're very different mentalities, east coast / west coast to the T.

This is not at all saying Matt can't thrive or eventually do well under a coach like Whis but the odds aren't as good as under someone else with a style closer to what he's used to.

It'll either make Matt stronger or he'll leave and possibly find what he wants elsewhere or not but whatever happens I think as a team the Cardinals will be better for finding Whis.

You just have to evaluate who's more important to the team, Whis or Matt and I'd say it's Whis so if his style tortures Matt then that is unfortunate but it is what it is.

 

[clif]

I think Moklerman and Conrad hit it on the head. I was going to start a thread about it but I figured I already started one today so. Anyways I am really wondering what has happened to Matt's physce. It is of course not the concern of Whiz, but you just have to be dumbfounded how he has seemingly regressed from year one. Of course the sampling size is pretty small, but there is definetely something mental going on right now.

 

[Gambit]

I wonder what's really happened to the promising young QB from 2006 and the unfortunate answer for Card's fans is that it might be Whis. Leinart may still be a starting QB in this league but he may not fit into what Whis wants to do or likes. Personally, I didn't think Leinart's game needed to be broken down and rebuilt after '06 and I really wonder if that decision has really messed him up. Chow was a good OC at USC and I thought Leinart was "NFL ready" coming from a pro system. Now, all the focus and work on his fundamentals has produced a rattled, flutter ball throwing mess. Obviously Whis wouldn't have taken Leinart if he didn't like how he was doing things but I really wonder if he would have made him start from scratch if he was "his guy".

I remember hearing Roethlisberger hates Whis. Although he did get a ring with Whis as the OC, Ben looks a lot better and more comfortable since Whis came to the desert.

 

[moklerman]

In terms of football philosophy I think Leinart is best suited for a WCO type of offense. At least from what I've seen so far. Whis' offense tends to put a lot of pressure on the QB to convert 3rd downs and often in long situations. I don't think that is Leinart's game. He has looked very comfortable in the small ball offense this preseason and would probably do well in a WCO. I think Whis has amended his belief that the Card's need to duplicate what Pittsburgh had in '05 and is embracing the idea of scoring points and utilizing the WR's and passing game. This team certainly needs to establish the passing game to set up the run so I don't know that a short passing game attack would benefit the offense overall. With St. Pierre looking more and more efficient and comfortable the Card's might have to make a tough decision in the next year or two.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I wonder what's really happened to the promising young QB from 2006 and the unfortunate answer for Card's fans is that it might be Whis. Leinart may still be a starting QB in this league but he may not fit into what Whis wants to do or likes. Personally, I didn't think Leinart's game needed to be broken down and rebuilt after '06 and I really wonder if that decision has really messed him up. Chow was a good OC at USC and I thought Leinart was "NFL ready" coming from a pro system. Now, all the focus and work on his fundamentals has produced a rattled, flutter ball throwing mess. Obviously Whis wouldn't have taken Leinart if he didn't like how he was doing things but I really wonder if he would have made him start from scratch if he was "his guy".

Don't get too excited. If he is indeed the starter for game one, there's about a 75% probability that Kurt will once again become a turnover machine, and hollywood will quickly get a chance to redeem himself.

Don't get me wrong, I think Warner should start after they way hollywood played last night.

But even with an improved defense, Warner turns it over too much to get us past the first round of the playoffs.

I'm still holding out hope that matty can turn it around. I backed Josh McCown until the bitter end, and I'll do the same for Leinart (I guess I'm stupid like that).

 

[Russ Smith]

Two good points.

1. I don't think Leinart has ever delt with this pressure. Especially the way things were always gum drops and candy canes at USC

2. He still has time to learn. It is absurd to read some of the crazyness on this thread. Steve Young, and Aaron Rogers were given plenty of time to develop. One bad preseason game and some are ready to throw Leinart out with the trash. IF Warner starts (waiting to hear from Whiz, but I am expecting to hear Warner will start, which is great) you stick with Leinart and let him continue to learn.

1) Matt came into USC behind Palmer and also behind Cassel who was a redshirt freshman Matt's freshman year. Matt nearly transferred out because of the realization he might not play but stuck it out. The first year he played he came into the season on a short leash with heralded John David Booty and Cassel pushing him, Matt wound up having a phenomenal year.

He's dealt with adversity his entire time in the NFL because of the Bears fiasco and Green firing his OC.

He played horribly last night but not because he's never had adversity before.

 

[moklerman]

From Warner per Urban:

"There is a scrutiny of every throw," Warner said. "You make a bad throw and you know people are going to be leaning one way or the other. That’s the hard part. It’s hard on both of us. When you are in a competition, people scrutinize every little thing. Not everyone knows all the details in any given situation. That’s when it gets hard.

"You get to the point sometimes where you start pressing or you start getting cautious and that’s when you stop playing your game. That’s the hard thing about these competitions. Sometimes it locks you up rather than frees you up to play your game."

 

[Skkorpion]

Here is the deal, as I see it now.

Last night was a shocker. Why? Because Matt Leinart was scared. Afraid to be hit. Afraid to fail. At a critical time, put under some pressure by Whisenhunt, he collapsed.

Remember him getting up the first time he was decked last night? He looked in pain and the body language was horrible and he got up so slowly.

He showed soft the whole time he was in there. The team saw it and he lost them.

Then, in the 2nd half, when he wouldn't take off his helmet, that was out of character. He was hiding.

After the game, he showered and left before the reporters could question him. He dodged. He chickened out. He ran.

The whole night was a revealing shocker. The coach commentator on radio made the same general points, just more gently.

This was probably the beginning of the end for Matt Leinart here in Arizona. He might still get it back together and succeed but I doubt it.

Most young QBs have growing pains. They don't look soft and scared. Confused, frustrated, angry. Not soft and scared.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Here is the deal, as I see it now.

Last night was a shocker. Why? Because Matt Leinart was scared. Afraid to be hit. Afraid to fail. At a critical time, put under some pressure by Whisenhunt, he collapsed.

Remember him getting up the first time he was decked last night? He looked in pain and the body language was horrible and he got up so slowly.

He showed soft the whole time he was in there. The team saw it and he lost them.

Then, in the 2nd half, when he wouldn't take off his helmet, that was out of character. He was hiding.

After the game, he showered and left before the reporters could question him. He dodged. He chickened out. He ran.

The whole night was a revealing shocker. The coach commentator on radio made the same general points, just more gently.

This was probably the beginning of the end for Matt Leinart here in Arizona. He might still get it back together and succeed but I doubt it.

Most young QBs have growing pains. They don't look soft and scared. Confused, frustrated, angry. Not soft and scared.

Can't dispute that.

I can only say, it is only one night. We have all had a very bad day at the office.

We will see if Hollywood bounces back.

As for the here and now.....the coaches will tell us what is going on.

 

[Mitch]

Here is the deal, as I see it now.

Last night was a shocker. Why? Because Matt Leinart was scared. Afraid to be hit. Afraid to fail. At a critical time, put under some pressure by Whisenhunt, he collapsed.

Remember him getting up the first time he was decked last night? He looked in pain and the body language was horrible and he got up so slowly.

He showed soft the whole time he was in there. The team saw it and he lost them.

Then, in the 2nd half, when he wouldn't take off his helmet, that was out of character. He was hiding.

After the game, he showered and left before the reporters could question him. He dodged. He chickened out. He ran.

The whole night was a revealing shocker. The coach commentator on radio made the same general points, just more gently.

This was probably the beginning of the end for Matt Leinart here in Arizona. He might still get it back together and succeed but I doubt it.

Most young QBs have growing pains. They don't look soft and scared. Confused, frustrated, angry. Not soft and scared.

This is the Howard Cosell "tell It Like It Is" Post of the Week. Best summary I've read, bar none! You're the man, Skkorp!

I was very tempted to say the same...but I am already being perceived as a Leinart "basher" because I have wanted Warner from the start. Since you opened the floodgate for the honest truth...here's what I would add:

1. By virtue of St. Pierre's performance, Leinart may have a hard time staving him off for the #2.

2. The main reason why Whiz tabbed Leinart as the starter from the start of the off-season? The front office put pressure on Whiz because of their investment in Leinart as a top ten pick and because, if Whiz had named Warner the starter, Warner would have deserved more money, in a year that with the Fitz deal, new contracts for Warner or even Dansby, Wilson, Q, etc. were just not going to happen. This was a calculated move by the front office.

3. Isn't it ironic that in the off-season Leinart makes news for himself by having his promiscuous beer bong party broadcasted all over the internet...while Kurt Warner had his name on the news for helping disaster victims in Iowa?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

1. By virtue of St. Pierre's performance, Leinart may have a hard time staving him off for the #2.

Here we go again. Why don't we just take Leinart out back and shoot him.
I mean he is the worse QB in the history of football because of his performance against the Raiders righ?

I guess is St.Pierre > Leinart then I guess we can trade his to Chicago or Minnesota, or the Niners. THey need QB help.

2. The main reason why Whiz tabbed Leinart as the starter from the start of the off-season? The front office put pressure on Whiz because of their investment in Leinart as a top ten pick and because, if Whiz had named Warner the starter, Warner would have deserved more money, in a year that with the Fitz deal, new contracts for Warner or even Dansby, Wilson, Q, etc. were just not going to happen. This was a calculated move by the front office.

I guess it would have nothing to do with the upside Leinart has shown at times, especially in his rookie season. Or with the fact you actually got to give a player a chance to develop, i.e. Adrian Wilson, in order for him to succeed.

3. Isn't it ironic that in the off-season Leinart makes news for himself by having his promiscuous beer bong party broadcasted all over the internet...while Kurt Warner had his name on the news for helping disaster victims in Iowa?

Leinart is 26 going on 27. Kurt Warner is 37 going on 38.

Seriously, do you forget at some point you were young ?

Leinart has charities and public relations stuff that he does as well.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I hope the people in this thread that are raking Leinart over the coals are this critical of Warner if he has a bad game.

Which he has known to have from time to time.

It will be justifiable to start trade rumors about him, and talk about his trade value.

The loyalty shown to this kid in this thread makes me want to puke. It is disgusting.

ONE BAD GAME does not negate the promise of a young QB. I tried to think of examples of how many young QB's that turned out to be fine NFL starters have had bad games and my mind exploded cause the list was too long.

The kid is probably, (not certainly), going to lose his starting job after working his butt off all offseason. There is no doubt he wants to succeed, and he is just not there YET.

I guess that is not bad enough. We know have to run the guy out of town, call out his worth as a person, and label him a bomb. AFTER ONE PRESEASON HALF?????

I am just in complete amazement in the ignorance going on here, and how quick everyone is the throw this guy under the bus and walk away.

Hopefully Leinart does go away, Warner gets hurt, and we are stuck looking for another QB for this squad for another 20 years.

UNBELIEVABLE. Way to support your team.

While were at it lets go back to ripping apart Boldin, and Fitzgerald ?

 

[BullheadCardFan]

1. By virtue of St. Pierre's performance, Leinart may have a hard time staving him off for the #2.

Even though St. Pierre looked like he knew the system very well I would have to see him play with the firsts against the firsts. Then we can decide if we make that move.

 

[Mitch]

Even though St. Pierre looked like he knew the system very well I would have to see him play with the firsts against the firsts. Then we can decide if we make that move.

That's a fair assessment, for sure.

Bullhead: I was at the Patriots-Eagles game Friday night, and I will say this, I could picture the Patriots offering the Cardinals as high as a 4th round pick for St. Pierre right now. The Pats' backup QBs have been horrible in pre-season...especially old Leinart backup Matt Cassell...and there is great cause for concern should Brady go down.

Of course, St, Pierre is a local kid...played at St. John's Prep in Danvers, MA (2 State Titles)...and then played at BC.

Our perception about St. Pierre is not an esoteric or especially biased one. Just this past week, Steve Mariucci, on NFL Network said of St. Pierre, "he's going to be a good starting QB in this league some day."

 

[artp]

I am a Leinart guy. I just remember too many of Warners mistakes over the years. But, I think Warner gives us the best chance to win now. And, it will be up to Leinart to respond. No way I see Warner playing all 16 games of the season. My fear is for the future. I don't see the Cardinals as a Playoff team this year. And, if Leinarts not a Playoff QB, we are going to have to start over with another QB. Warner, IMO, will not be our QB 2-3 yrs down the road.

 

[Mitch]

I am a Leinart guy. I just remember too many of Warners mistakes over the years. But, I think Warner gives us the best chance to win now. And, it will be up to Leinart to respond. No way I see Warner playing all 16 games of the season. My fear is for the future. I don't see the Cardinals as a Playoff team this year. And, if Leinarts not a Playoff QB, we are going to have to start over with another QB. Warner, IMO, will not be our QB 2-3 yrs down the road.

I usually agree with your assessments, artp...but, this may shock you, I honestly believe that if Warner can stay healthy and perform similarly to how he performed last year...and if Clancy Pendergast shows an ability to play aggressive pass defense, particularly with an improved pass rush, the Cardinals could wind up playing New Orleans or Dallas for the NFC Championship.