Dare I say the "T" word . . . ?

[Hoop Head]

I challenged Pokerface's post that we should tank "for the next couple of seasons", but never saw a response. So now his plan is three years in a row?

And that is not going to piss off Devin Booker? The Tank pissed off Bledsoe and his potential is nowhere near DBook's.

The Suns have Devin locked up? Yeah, until he tweets from the hairdresser's. (I didn't use a smiley face because it's not a joke.)

I agree with this 100% but think it needs to be said, there is a difference between tanking and being bad. We can be bad while showing signs of improving, whether it's by adding free agents or making trades, but putting all of our eggs in the draft basket and purposefully sucking will leave us with disgruntled players. They need to see the franchise doing more than purposefully lose to try and draft replacements for people on the roster already. It's not that the draft shouldn't be an avenue where we add talent but we shouldn't depend solely on that alone.

 

[pokerface]

I challenged Pokerface's post that we should tank "for the next couple of seasons", but never saw a response. So now his plan is three years in a row?

And that is not going to piss off Devin Booker? The Tank pissed off Bledsoe and his potential is nowhere near DBook's.

The Suns have Devin locked up? Yeah, until he tweets from the hairdresser's. (I didn't use a smiley face because it's not a joke.)

I'm not thinking about a tank beyond this season. There is an unusual set of circumstances this year between the lottery rules that are set to change and a abundance of interesting bigs. We are already bad from last season so we have a "head start" on the draft.

This season is too uphill. Truthfully, you guys might want to rethink this. The suns are going to lose a lot so instead of getting ticked off you might as well embrace the draft because that seems more exciting and a bigger payoff. I think we would be absolutely thrilled to get a top five pick.

Booker isn't going to walk over another bad season. We have years to turn his thinking around. Even players know about the draft...they know what's up. They know more help is coming.

 

[pokerface]

I agree with this 100% but think it needs to be said, there is a difference between tanking and being bad. We can be bad while showing signs of improving, whether it's by adding free agents or making trades, but putting all of our eggs in the draft basket and purposefully sucking will leave us with disgruntled players. They need to see the franchise doing more than purposefully lose to try and draft replacements for people on the roster already. It's not that the draft shouldn't be an avenue where we add talent but we shouldn't depend solely on that alone.

We shouldn't keep Chandler and Dudley around when they aren't in our future and could hurt our draft. Time to cash in on them!

PS...the players are going to get "disgruntled" with twenty wins or thirty wins so what are we dwelling on??

 

[pokerface]

I do not believe trading for Knight should define future trades. The Suns have not been setting the world on fire with the draft especially picks in the top ten. Building a team properly requires a combination approach of signing free agents, trades and the draft.

Their drafts are better than their trades if you want to go down that road. This latest Bled trade was bare minimum return...as was the Isaiah Thomas trade.

 

[Hoop Head]

We shouldn't keep Chandler and Dudley around when they aren't in our future and could hurt our draft. Time to cash in on them!

PS...the players are going to get "disgruntled" with twenty wins or thirty wins so what are we dwelling on??

The team needs some veteran leadership, while I don't think hanging onto both Chandler and Dudley is necessary I'm not against keeping them if there isn't a deal that actually adds something of value to the team in return for them. One of them needs to stick around though for veteran leadership, at the least. Chandler is brittle and won't play more than 60 games this year if we held onto him anyways and Dudley is fine coming off the bench or not playing if young players are in front of him in the rotation. We shouldn't just trade them in a salary dump or for future 2nd round picks. If they're to be traded then it should be for something that helps the team, not hinders it.

There is a big difference between playing hard and only winning 30 games in a season vs having the best players on the team pulled from the roster so the team can bottom out. When management tells the roster they've given up on the season but want to make sure they can get a high draft pick so they're going to pull the best 2-3 players from the roster so they can lose even more. When the coaching staff or the front office does that they're sending a message to the players that they don't want them to win anymore that year and being professional athletes of course that isn't going to sit well with them. By benching players or trading them away for nothing, like the team did last year, that sends the message to the roster that the team/front office/management doesn't have any confidence in them and wants to make it even harder for them to compete at this current time.

Do you not see the difference between management working with the players only to come up short and management working against them so they finish with one of the worst records in the league when they could have finished higher in the standings? Working with them would be your scenario of only winning 25-30 games as is, while our youth develops, chemistry is established and improved upon, and the team puts a 100% effort into every game. Working against them is trading good players for nothing in return so the players that are left here have to work that much harder to compete because key players have been removed for no reason other than management doesn't want them to win at this time, they want to add rookies that will take another couple of years to develop and actually help our players win games. Why would someone like Booker want to stick around for that?

This isn't a video game where everything is just by the rules and you can make these moves without factoring in the human element. Pulling players from the lineup and/or sending them off for nothing in return sends the wrong message to our youth and there wouldn't be any veterans left to help guide them through the rebuilding process. If you don't see the value that Chandler and Dudley offer in that regard then you're not paying attention. Without them, we'd be left with a ton of players on rookie contracts who only know the Suns organization, that look around the league and see their peers being given the chances to succeed while their team believes the future will be brighter by pulling the plug on the season within the first month. What sort of environment does that create for the players the team wants to hang onto?

 

[pokerface]

The team needs some veteran leadership, while I don't think hanging onto both Chandler and Dudley is necessary I'm not against keeping them if there isn't a deal that actually adds something of value to the team in return for them. One of them needs to stick around though for veteran leadership, at the least. Chandler is brittle and won't play more than 60 games this year if we held onto him anyways and Dudley is fine coming off the bench or not playing if young players are in front of him in the rotation. We shouldn't just trade them in a salary dump or for future 2nd round picks. If they're to be traded then it should be for something that helps the team, not hinders it.

There is a big difference between playing hard and only winning 30 games in a season vs having the best players on the team pulled from the roster so the team can bottom out. When management tells the roster they've given up on the season but want to make sure they can get a high draft pick so they're going to pull the best 2-3 players from the roster so they can lose even more. When the coaching staff or the front office does that they're sending a message to the players that they don't want them to win anymore that year and being professional athletes of course that isn't going to sit well with them. By benching players or trading them away for nothing, like the team did last year, that sends the message to the roster that the team/front office/management doesn't have any confidence in them and wants to make it even harder for them to compete at this current time.

Do you not see the difference between management working with the players only to come up short and management working against them so they finish with one of the worst records in the league when they could have finished higher in the standings? Working with them would be your scenario of only winning 25-30 games as is, while our youth develops, chemistry is established and improved upon, and the team puts a 100% effort into every game. Working against them is trading good players for nothing in return so the players that are left here have to work that much harder to compete because key players have been removed for no reason other than management doesn't want them to win at this time, they want to add rookies that will take another couple of years to develop and actually help our players win games. Why would someone like Booker want to stick around for that?

This isn't a video game where everything is just by the rules and you can make these moves without factoring in the human element. Pulling players from the lineup and/or sending them off for nothing in return sends the wrong message to our youth and there wouldn't be any veterans left to help guide them through the rebuilding process. If you don't see the value that Chandler and Dudley offer in that regard then you're not paying attention. Without them, we'd be left with a ton of players on rookie contracts who only know the Suns organization, that look around the league and see their peers being given the chances to succeed while their team believes the future will be brighter by pulling the plug on the season within the first month. What sort of environment does that create for the players the team wants to hang onto?

Look, they had Chandler and Dudley AND Bledsoe last season and finished with second worst record. Where did all this veteran stuff get us? Len still acts clueless... Chandler didn't fix him much. I don't want to take any unnecessary chances with this draft!!! Chandler has only two seasons left anyway. It's like cut him loose already. Why do you think every other trade rumor involves Tyson? You need to think about that.

Also, with Monroe coming off the books who is to say the suns couldn't pick up veteran free agents in the offseason? Let's take care of the draft FIRST and worry about all this other stuff in the offseason. If we draft high enough it's going to make a lot of other things easier moving forward. Easier to make trades... easier to attract free agents.

 

[Errntknght]

I believe that we got Bledsoe at such a seemingly low price because the Clips understood what was likely to happen if they kept him. Basically, he was just good enough that he could aspire to being a starting PG on a good team but they had Chris Paul, who was a top PG and quite young so Bled would be stymied. His agent was a nightmare to deal with, so they faced having to overpay him, on top of that. Plus he'd had a significant injury that could well recur. Quite sensibly, they decided to let another team deal with all that.
Perhaps the Clips even understood that Bled's value as a two way player was dependent on him playing fewer minutes than expected of a starter. (He was a very good defender when he played at a frenzied pace but he couldn't maintain that for 32 plus minutes a game.) Whether they did or not, no one in Phoenix grasped that, so he really never lived up to all our expectations. He did fit right in with Hornacek's and McD's plans for an uptempo game and a pick and roll offense.

The situation we face is somewhat different than the one the Clips did, Bledsoe wants to part company now. Like everyone else, I don't know why exactly, but I think he sees that we are not going to be good for some years and he doesn't want to be part of a lackluster team for the finish of his career. He'll probably be disappointed in the role Milwaukee wants him to play but, at least, he'll be on a team ascending. Or if his agent has him bucking for a massive contract they'll let him go.

 

[Mainstreet]

The situation we face is somewhat different than the one the Clips did, Bledsoe wants to part company now. Like everyone else, I don't know why exactly, but I think he sees that we are not going to be good for some years and he doesn't want to be part of a lackluster team for the finish of his career. He'll probably be disappointed in the role Milwaukee wants him to play but, at least, he'll be on a team ascending. Or if his agent has him bucking for a massive contract they'll let him go.

Bledsoe knew the Suns were not going to pay him the money he wanted in a future contract. I'm glad the Suns were smart enough not to go down that road. IMO, they dodged a bullet.

 

[Mainstreet]

Their drafts are better than their trades if you want to go down that road. This latest Bled trade was bare minimum return...as was the Isaiah Thomas trade.

The Suns received first round picks in the Bledsoe and Thomas trades much more than the Suns traded for them. I can understand the mitigating circumstances of the Suns trading them.

Of course if you want to refer to a bad trade, it was the trade for Knight. This stands out like a sore thumb.

If one were to remove the Knight trade from the equation though, the Suns drafting might be more suspect than their trades.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Suns received first round picks in the Bledsoe and Thomas trades much more than the Suns traded for them. I can understand the mitigating circumstances of the Suns trading them.

Of course if you want to refer to a bad trade, it was the trade for Knight. This stands out like a sore thumb.

If one were to remove the Knight trade from the equation though, the Suns drafting might be more suspect than their trades.

If that Laker pick ends up in the 10-14 range, even the Knight trade doesn't look horrible. Bad yes. But not horrible.

I do think its amusing how McD's deals are compared to his previous trades for evaluation. "We got more than that for Markieff or Goran." The problem is that those trades were near miraculous in their return.

Let's compare it to other disgruntled player trades. Paul George to OKC. Jimmy Butler to Minny (kinda), Kyrie to Boston.

Or how about comparing it to DAR to Brooklyn. These are the major trades lately.

 

[Hoop Head]

If that Laker pick ends up in the 10-14 range, even the Knight trade doesn't look horrible. Bad yes. But not horrible.

I do think its amusing how McD's deals are compared to his previous trades for evaluation. "We got more than that for Markieff or Goran." The problem is that those trades were near miraculous in their return.

Let's compare it to other disgruntled player trades. Paul George to OKC. Jimmy Butler to Minny (kinda), Kyrie to Boston.

Or how about comparing it to DAR to Brooklyn. These are the major trades lately.

A lot of people judge McD in weird ways. He has made some really good trades, like the Markieff and Dragic deals where he got great return for players who wanted out so the Suns had very little leverage. Those trades are forgotten or used as a measuring stick for all other deals he's made, like those represent average deals and anything less than those is a bad trade. He has made some bad deals like the Knight trade and then resigning but no GM is perfect. He's much better than Babby, Blanks or Steve Kerr was for the team.

Compare the trades and draft picks McD has made over the last 5 years though to other teams and GM's in the league and he's no worse than average. I'd say he'd rank somewhere in the #10-15 range for top GM's in the league, maybe even higher. Look at what the Lakers have done in the last 5 years and tell me they've made better deals than the Suns have in terms of acquiring players through the draft, free agency, and trades. They've picked higher than the Suns, don't need to worry about the luxury tax like Phoenix does, and also have a rich championship history. Don't just compare his time with the team to the Lakers though, look elsewhere in the West at smaller markets like Portland and Utah, both teams have lost franchise players and have overpaid for role players while drafting kind of poorly. The Jazz drafted Gobert and the Blazers drafted McCollum. Those are the bright spots to those clubs over the last 5 years and in the case of Gobert, virtually every team in the league passed on the chance to draft him. I'm just using those as examples but look elsewhere, it's rare that a team goes from the lottery to contention without it taking years to build a solid core like the Warriors or the Clippers did over the last decade.

I'm not saying that McD is perfect by any means but he's not an incompetent twit that some people make him out to be. He's definitely the best GM the Suns have had since Colangelo in the 90's.

 

[Cheesebeef]

A lot of people judge McD in weird ways. He has made some really good trades, like the Markieff and Dragic deals where he got great return for players who wanted out so the Suns had very little leverage. Those trades are forgotten or used as a measuring stick for all other deals he's made, like those represent average deals and anything less than those is a bad trade. He has made some bad deals like the Knight trade and then resigning but no GM is perfect. He's much better than Babby, Blanks or Steve Kerr was for the team.

Compare the trades and draft picks McD has made over the last 5 years though to other teams and GM's in the league and he's no worse than average. I'd say he'd rank somewhere in the #10-15 range for top GM's in the league, maybe even higher. Look at what the Lakers have done in the last 5 years and tell me they've made better deals than the Suns have in terms of acquiring players through the draft, free agency, and trades. They've picked higher than the Suns, don't need to worry about the luxury tax like Phoenix does, and also have a rich championship history. Don't just compare his time with the team to the Lakers though, look elsewhere in the West at smaller markets like Portland and Utah, both teams have lost franchise players and have overpaid for role players while drafting kind of poorly. The Jazz drafted Gobert and the Blazers drafted McCollum. Those are the bright spots to those clubs over the last 5 years and in the case of Gobert, virtually every team in the league passed on the chance to draft him. I'm just using those as examples but look elsewhere, it's rare that a team goes from the lottery to contention without it taking years to build a solid core like the Warriors or the Clippers did over the last decade.

I'm not saying that McD is perfect by any means but he's not an incompetent twit that some people make him out to be. He's definitely the best GM the Suns have had since Colangelo in the 90's.

Using the Lakers an the Jazz to make the argument that McD is in the top 10-15 GMs in the league "or better" doesn't hold much water considering those two teams, especially the Lakers have been run by ATROCIOUS management.

 

[Hoop Head]

Using the Lakers an the Jazz to make the argument that McD is in the top 10-15 GMs in the league "or better" doesn't hold much water considering those two teams, especially the Lakers have been run by ATROCIOUS management.

Do you really want me to list every team that is managed worse than the Suns? Look at the teams that have playoff droughts and compare the moves they've made to the Suns. I think it's safe to say there are at least a dozen teams in the league that have been run worse than the Suns over the last few years like the Knicks, Nets, Lakers, Sacramento, Philly, New Orleans, Chicago, Atlanta, and Indiana off the top of my head. I know there are more, you could add the Mavericks to that with how far they've fallen after winning a title a few years ago. They dismantled that team but didn't seem to do it intentionally which makes it worse. Of course they did win a title but they're a long way from another. You can't say they've been run better than Phoenix over the last 4-5 years.

McD isn't an awful GM, like I said he's average at worst but I'd say he's above average. He's drafted well and he's done what he can while dealing with Sarver and keeping him at bay so he can build a team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Gm's make mistakes. They take risks. Some work out, some don't. Sam Presti, who people thought was a miracle worker, traded away James Harden, let Durant get away, and traded away his future for Paul George who may walk at the end of this season.

And he is still probably one of the better GM's.

I think McD has been pretty good, and will likely get better because he is young and seems willing to admit and learn from his mistakes. If we were to fire him, the chances of the next guy being worse are probably 75% or better.

 

[BillsCarnage]

Get your tanking standings here http://www.tankathon.com/

Suns, Yotes and Cards all participating

 

[Carolinacacti]

Its a lot easier to captain of a well run cruse line then the Titanic. McD must have aged 10 years running this ship. Hope he gets to see land soon.

 

[Mainstreet]

If that Laker pick ends up in the 10-14 range, even the Knight trade doesn't look horrible. Bad yes. But not horrible.

I do think its amusing how McD's deals are compared to his previous trades for evaluation. "We got more than that for Markieff or Goran." The problem is that those trades were near miraculous in their return.

Let's compare it to other disgruntled player trades. Paul George to OKC. Jimmy Butler to Minny (kinda), Kyrie to Boston.

Or how about comparing it to DAR to Brooklyn. These are the major trades lately.

I was saying with the exception of Knight the Suns drafting might be more suspect than their trades.

It sort of got spun around.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The team needs some veteran leadership, while I don't think hanging onto both Chandler and Dudley is necessary I'm not against keeping them if there isn't a deal that actually adds something of value to the team in return for them. One of them needs to stick around though for veteran leadership, at the least. Chandler is brittle and won't play more than 60 games this year if we held onto him anyways and Dudley is fine coming off the bench or not playing if young players are in front of him in the rotation. We shouldn't just trade them in a salary dump or for future 2nd round picks. If they're to be traded then it should be for something that helps the team, not hinders it.

There is a big difference between playing hard and only winning 30 games in a season vs having the best players on the team pulled from the roster so the team can bottom out. When management tells the roster they've given up on the season but want to make sure they can get a high draft pick so they're going to pull the best 2-3 players from the roster so they can lose even more. When the coaching staff or the front office does that they're sending a message to the players that they don't want them to win anymore that year and being professional athletes of course that isn't going to sit well with them. By benching players or trading them away for nothing, like the team did last year, that sends the message to the roster that the team/front office/management doesn't have any confidence in them and wants to make it even harder for them to compete at this current time.

Do you not see the difference between management working with the players only to come up short and management working against them so they finish with one of the worst records in the league when they could have finished higher in the standings? Working with them would be your scenario of only winning 25-30 games as is, while our youth develops, chemistry is established and improved upon, and the team puts a 100% effort into every game. Working against them is trading good players for nothing in return so the players that are left here have to work that much harder to compete because key players have been removed for no reason other than management doesn't want them to win at this time, they want to add rookies that will take another couple of years to develop and actually help our players win games. Why would someone like Booker want to stick around for that?

This isn't a video game where everything is just by the rules and you can make these moves without factoring in the human element. Pulling players from the lineup and/or sending them off for nothing in return sends the wrong message to our youth and there wouldn't be any veterans left to help guide them through the rebuilding process. If you don't see the value that Chandler and Dudley offer in that regard then you're not paying attention. Without them, we'd be left with a ton of players on rookie contracts who only know the Suns organization, that look around the league and see their peers being given the chances to succeed while their team believes the future will be brighter by pulling the plug on the season within the first month. What sort of environment does that create for the players the team wants to hang onto?

Your comments read like every team except he suns are playoff contenders and have been for years. LOTS of bad teams. Lots of teams Bad for years. The suns are one of many. They have officially tanked ONE season (and even then only half of last season).

 

[pokerface]

Suns have the longest losing streak at five in a row. The tank is showing it's strength at last...

 

[Mainstreet]

Get your tanking standings here http://www.tankathon.com/

Suns, Yotes and Cards all participating

Ugh. The Suns keep coming up 6th in the simulator instead of 5th where their record would place them.

 

[Hoop Head]

First time I ran it, Suns at #2, Bucks at #13, and Heat at #17 so that gives the Suns all 3 picks. I imagine we could use 2 of them to move from 2 to 1 if we wanted but I wouldn't want to use all 3 to jump one spot.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[pokerface]

Ouchie...our tank is tanking ...wadda we going to do??


Booker is just too good.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

THis team is still bad. Just four teams are REALLY bad.

 

[pokerface]

THis team is still bad. Just four teams are REALLY bad.

At least the other four have to play each other... somebody has to win. Plus we have yet to play GS four times and a few other toughies. We are still in the hunt just not sure if some of the suns players are going to "cooperate" with our plans.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

At least the other four have to play each other... somebody has to win. Plus we have yet to play GS four times and a few other toughies. We are still in the hunt just not sure if some of the suns players are going to "cooperate" with our plans.

They won’t ourposefully play poorly and I wouldn’t ask them to do so. I hope this year we lose a lot but our players continue to develop during the course of the season.