Dare I say the "T" word . . . ?

[pokerface]

I'm not lying you just refuse to see anything from a perspective other than yours.

Ok, where are you and him talking about those players in details and what they've accomplished so far? What they did to be recruited by the colleges they signed with. Mentioning their names isn't discussing them in detail like you'd think draft geeks would. Please show me one post where you talk about what they do that you like outside of them looking like some NBA player. That's the closest you've come to detail, saying Ayton looks like David Robinson.

They are "bigs" and highly ranked and scouted. They rebound/score/defend better than Len and will last longer than old guy Chandler. What are we supposed to know? Len is half out the door... Chandler is halfway to the grave...and Williams is half a foot too short. It's about haves and have nots.. we have NOT.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't know if I'm a tanker or not... I want Chandler moved and I don't want Bledsoe to return to playing. I believe, at his best, Bledsoe hinders player development as I've said for the last year. The way he was playing he was a big help to tanking, but he won't get on the floor playing that way and I'm more than happy he won't. If there are strong indications Len won't stay if he gets any offer, then I'd like to get rid of him, too - whether he's helping the tank or helping us win. In short, I want to get shed of anyone who isn't a likely contributor for the next three-four years. I don't want Jones Jr. getting significant playing time until he's earned it because I don't see him as having enough potential to waste playing time on. I do want Peters to get some burn so we get a good read on him though the G-league is fine for now. I don't want Davon or Sauce hurried back into action - do what's best for them long term. That goes for TJ, too.

If we stay with the status quo and Warren returns to form quickly, I would say we are not likely to get a top five pick. If we shed Chandler and Len, our chances probably increase a bit and if we shed just Tyson that probably helps a tad more unless it motivates Len. I think Len is close to tank neutral now.
If Warren needs to rehab for a couple of months or his play bottoms out, our chances of a top five pick go up a fair bit. It would also be interesting to see how Triano copes with that - he could go with Jones Jr or perhaps Dudley or play Daniels up a notch with James and Ulis playing together part time. Or move Chriss or Bender down a notch. It'll be an opportunity to learn something we might never discover otherwise.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

First, let me say that as an unabashed draft geek, I am abnormally excited about this year's class. There are some other interesting players after the top 5 (like Miles Bridges, Robert Williams, and Wendell Carter), but I really do think this class has special potential at the top. The other exciting thing is the fit these players would have on this squad.

I'm least high on Porter Jr. and he is the worst fit, but Ayton, Bagley, and Bamba would all potentially add a game-changing element this Suns team currently lacks. As for Doncic, I just love the kid. Amazing basketball player.

The problem with tanking for them, as I see it, is that the players who most affect our wins and losses are now guys I consider to be part of the future. I had little problem with the Suns alienating Bledsoe and Chandler because I never considered them to be part of the next great Suns team. So if Bledsoe dislikes the organization...no big deal.

Now though, tanking would involve messing with Booker or Warren's chances to win and feel good about the team's progress. Those two are the biggest factors in winning or losing, and if we're lucky they will soon be joined by Bender or Jackson.

Booker saying he's seen everything the NBA has to offer by age 21 means he gets that it's a business. He's seen others dissatisfied with the organization, but it will be different if it affects him directly. Taking away players who can help him start to win or making moves to hinder the team's development at this point is sending a really bad message imho.

Now...if it just so happened that we struggle this year while trying our hardest and lucked into one of those top guys...that's the dream! But I think any active pursuit of losing is a really bad idea given context.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If everyone of the youngsters hits their ceiling, MAYBE the Suns have a future as an upper echelon team... in about three more years.

But the probability that anyone else besides maybe Booker gets to that level is pretty slim. So it would definitely behoove the Suns to be in a position to add as many elite level talents as they can during this period of being one of the league's worst teams. Unfortunately, that means not overachieving... and really hoping for the team to be as bad as possible during years when the draft class is likely to feature multiple talents of that grade, like this year.... because not every draft class has even one of that quality of prospect.

As for free agency, you all really need to let that ship sail. The Suns are no longer players in the elite free agent market, due to the poor recent track record of the franchise and the general all around perception of their ownership and front office around the league. No free agents worth a plug nickel are coming here for the foreseeable future unless we somehow get back to the very top echelon of the league again. This isn't the JC era anymore where we were universally respected as a quality franchise.

We can still maybe make headway with some clever trades. McDonough seems to be doing his best there, but again we really have to hope on grabbing some undeveloped talent from another team (as Bledsoe was) and having it blossom here. Top level players will be resistant to coming here in a trade for all the same reasons as top level free agents.

Frankly, all those supporting the "tank" approach are really correct about it being the best approach. My only reservations about it are that A) you can't force or ask your team to deliberately play bad or lose games, B) you can only deliberately engineer a bad team to a certain degree to get you there, and C) you still have to depend on dumb luck to some extent in terms of still being worse than other bad teams AND getting the lucky breaks in the lottery. So no way is deliberately tanking a sure fire thing either. But if it somehow was, I agree with the tankers that the Suns should be doing their level best to tank this season, anyway.

But tanking is one of the primary reasons free agents don’t want to be here. I don’t want to get into a mgmt ownership discussion right now so I will concede that is part of it too. But having a young group that is having fun and winning will resolve most free agent issues.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm talking about the tank crew though, the people here like you and pokerface. I was replying to JC's post about why people might be so pro-tank saying some people "I think its about being a draft geek. Some of us are draft geeks for about 2-3 months of the year, and some just move from one draft right on to the next." and you're quoting my response to that in which I say the tank crowd here don't seem to be that way. When I say "They're not talking about their high school stats or analyzing them" that's where I'm talking about you and Pokerface. You guys just want to tank, not so you can talk about the draft, you just want to lose and you're not discussing the merits of what player X brings to the table, you're talking about how many more games we can lose by trading away player Y. I said that in the post, do I really have to spell it out?

Ok. The tank crew HAS been talking about these five repeatedly. They are not analyzing high schools stats because looking at prospects’ high school stats is meaningless. The stat discussions have to wait until the college season starts. I guarantee you there will be huge discussion about those five and more, from day one.

I am not a draft geek all the time. But these names were in discussion even before the last draft. The only reason I know about these players is because of posters on this board.

So, yeah. The tank craze is about these five players primarily. If this was the Len draft coming up, we would not be talking tank much. Everyone knew that was a pretty bad draft a year ahead of time.

I still think aiming for losing right now is a bad idea.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm not lying you just refuse to see anything from a perspective other than yours.

Ok, where are you and him talking about those players in details and what they've accomplished so far? What they did to be recruited by the colleges they signed with. Mentioning their names isn't discussing them in detail like you'd think draft geeks would. Please show me one post where you talk about what they do that you like outside of them looking like some NBA player. That's the closest you've come to detail, saying Ayton looks like David Robinson.

Dude your claim was that we just blindly wanted a top 5 pick. And you kept supporting that argument. I’ve repeatedly said that’s not true. We want one of those specific five PLAYERS that will likely only available with a top 5 pick. You can go ahead and change your argument now, but it doesn’t change what you were arguing before. And if you want to learn about those five players it’s not my job to teach you. I’ve been doing research on the players available and have determined that those five would have a profound impact on the future of our franchise. But keep mischaracterizing what I’m saying to suit your argument.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ok. The tank crew HAS been talking about these five repeatedly. They are not analyzing high schools atats because looking at prospects’ high school stats are meaningless. The stat discussions have to wait until the college season starts. I guarantee you there will be huge discussion about those five and more, from day one.

I am not a draft geek all the time. But these names were in discussion even before the last draft. The only reason I know about these players is because of posters on this board.

So, yeah. The tank craze is about these five players primarily. If this was the Len draft coming up, we would not be talking tank much. Everyone knew that was a pretty bad draft a year ahead of time.

I still think aiming for losing right now is a bad idea.

Thank you for acknowledging that we don’t want to lose just fornlosing sake and that, even if you disagree with tanking, there’s legitimate reason THIS year for wanting to do so.

 

[Hoop Head]

Dude your claim was that we just blindly wanted a top 5 pick. And you kept supporting that argument. I’ve repeatedly said that’s not true. We want one of those specific five PLAYERS that will likely only available with a top 5 pick. You can go ahead and change your argument now, but it doesn’t change what you were arguing before. And if you want to learn about those five players it’s not my job to teach you. I’ve been doing research on the players available and have determined that those five would have a profound impact on the future of our franchise. But keep mischaracterizing what I’m saying to suit your argument.

Where I have said that you blindly want a high pick and not one of those players? The tank crowd wants a pick to get one of the players who is projected now to be a top 5 pick, I never said otherwise, but I have said those players may not pan out or even be considered top 5 picks when the draft is actually here. I don't see how that is changing my stance. My argument is how you keep twisting my words and now you're accusing me of doing that to you? This all started when it was posted that most that are pro-tank are draft obsessed fans who are following all of the prospects but I said it doesn't seem that way here because you and Pokerface aren't posting about what specifically those top prospects bring to the table outside of small buzz phrases like "Ayton looks like David Robinson". Now you're coming at me claiming I've accused the tank crowd of blindly wanting a top 5 pick? I've acknowledged who the top 5 prospects are over and over and I know that's who you guys want in the draft. I do question if they'll be the same top 5 prospects come draft time because it's rare for the top 5 prospects in October to be the same as they are in June when the draft takes place.

My stance hasn't change but you seem to keep twisting my words around rather than face any other questions or comments in this thread. Again, I said that the tank crowd don't appear to be draft geeks who are over analyzing the draft based on how they post because you guys aren't posting about the prospects in detail other than they're "franchising changing talent". Do the Suns need a big? Yes, but the skill sets of the top 4 NCAA players are vastly different from one another and you don't seem to acknowledge or talk about how Bamba would fit versus Bagley or what you think of Porter. You apparently know but won't talk about it because other people need to research for themselves? That's ridiculous to say on a message board where everyone is talking about the future of the team but you won't disclose what you've researched. You guys aren't debating who the best fit is and why or giving any insight as to why we NEED one of those players so badly or even which one we should choose or which might fit with our current roster. You're not even acknowledging the vastly improved play of Bender compared to last year or Chriss' improved play and how they'd fit with our next pick, whoever that may be or if that changes who we might draft. This team has played much better since Triano has taken over, going 4-2. If they can play close to this good though they won't get a top 5 pick and that's with only 1 veteran in the rotation so how can they tank? Why root for our youth to suck?

 

[Hoop Head]

Ok. The tank crew HAS been talking about these five repeatedly. They are not analyzing high schools atats because looking at prospects’ high school stats are meaningless. The stat discussions have to wait until the college season starts. I guarantee you there will be huge discussion about those five and more, from day one.

I am not a draft geek all the time. But these names were in discussion even before the last draft. The only reason I know about these players is because of posters on this board.

So, yeah. The tank craze is about these five players primarily. If this was the Len draft coming up, we would not be talking tank much. Everyone knew that was a pretty bad draft a year ahead of time.

I still think aiming for losing right now is a bad idea.

Ok, they do want those players and that's been said but that's it. They want those players. They're not comparing the skill sets of those players to each other or who fits best. I'm not denying they want those 5, maybe I should have put their names instead of using "Player X" but they're not debating the differences they bring to the table or how they fit with this Suns roster.

They want Bamba, Ayton, Bagley, Porter, or Doncic but aren't discussing specifically what those players have that make tanking such a great idea or consider those players might not pan out.

 

[JCSunsfan]

See guys. I am in the best of both worlds. I want the young guys to improve. I really don't care about wins or losses either way. If they win, great, great team building night. If they lose, I am not worried about it much, they can learn from the loss too.

I just refuse to go through a year where I am in anquish over every win.

 

[Mainstreet]

@Poop Head

The primary issue I have with those pro-tankers is they are not talking about players outside the top 5 players in the draft. It's like get one of those top 5 players and nothing else. There are a number of bad teams in the NBA this season and getting a top 5 pick is my no means assured or obtainable unless the Suns start sitting some of their key youngsters.

It reeks of putting all your eggs in one basket.

However, they won't go so far as saying, let's start sitting Warren and Booker now because they know how bad it stinks.

Trading Bledsoe and Chandler may not get the Suns in the top 5.

Also what happened to the BPA available philosophy.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

@Poop Head.

Still funny. Lol.

 

[JCSunsfan]

[B]@Poop Head[/B]

The primary issue t. . . . .

It reeks of putting all your eggs in one basket. . . .

let's start sitting Warren and Booker now because they know how bad it stinks. . . .

Also what happened to the BPA available philosophy.

Subtle. Quit picking on Poopy.

 

[pokerface]

@Poop Head

The primary issue I have with those pro-tankers is they are not talking about players outside the top 5 players in the draft. It's like get one of those top 5 players and nothing else. There are a number of bad teams in the NBA this season and getting a top 5 pick is my no means assured or obtainable unless the Suns start sitting some of their key youngsters.

It reeks of putting all your eggs in one basket.

However, they won't go so far as saying, let's start sitting Warren and Booker now because they know how bad it stinks.

Trading Bledsoe and Chandler may not get the Suns in the top 5.

Also what happened to the BPA available philosophy.

We have the Miami pick for anything out of the top seven. You can scout for that pick and let the tank crew worry about cracking the top five with the suns pick. We aren't "putting all our eggs in one basket" for Pete's sake.

Trading Bledsoe and Chandler might not guarantee us cracking the top five but then again it might. We don't know if we don't try that route. Really I'm not getting the "debate" about dealing Chandler at all. He has this season and next season with the suns and that's it. There is ZERO chance of him resigning with the suns. He doesn't fit with our future at all and it's time to cash in on any value he has left. He could potentially mess up our draft and he hinders Len from being fully tested as a starter.

 

[Raze]

We have the Miami pick for anything out of the top seven. You can scout for that pick and let the tank crew worry about cracking the top five with the suns pick. We aren't "putting all our eggs in one basket" for Pete's sake.

Trading Bledsoe and Chandler might not guarantee us cracking the top five but then again it might. We don't know if we don't try that route. Really I'm not getting the "debate" about dealing Chandler at all. He has this season and next season with the suns and that's it. There is ZERO chance of him resigning with the suns. He doesn't fit with our future at all and it's time to cash in on any value he has left. He could potentially mess up our draft and he hinders Len from being fully tested as a starter.

If we only focus on Chandler's value in stats, then yes. However, there is a substantial possibility that he's cultivating positives in each of the young players that'll listen. True, we might get a top 5 by trading him, but we'll certainly lose the value that he's pouring into our future. If we keep him we still might get a top 5 with him AND allow our future corps to gain some insight.

The true mystery is how many wins will he actually add to the team. Obviously this is unprovable, but let's say he's adding 5 wins to this team. Last year, 5 extra wins would have lost us 2 spots (Ironically giving us Philly's ping pong balls, which garnered the top pick). But looking long term I would suggest that he's adding wins into NEXT season. When you provide insight and wisdom to the young talent there is a carry over. Tyson seems to have embraced a very serious leadership role under Triano. It's having an effect.

I'm not against tanking like the Spurs did for Duncan. But this situation appears radically different. We don't have a David Robinson or a Sean Elliott that we can bench to cause a radical shift in our record AND there isn't a "can't miss" prospect.

In all, I think this entire debate is nothing more than splitting hairs. This really isn't about wins, this is about ping pong balls. I don't know how many more we'd get by trading Tyson. It probably isn't much if any. So I'm all for staying the course and riding this out while he's making a positive LONG TERM effect on this franchise.

 

[SirStefan32]

Bledsoe and Chandler are not going to get you a top-five pick. Cavs are literally the only possibility there, and I am reasonably sure it is not going to happen. There is also no guarantee that the Nets pick will be in top five.

 

[pokerface]

There is no debate when it comes to Chandler. The ones that want him around talk about some unprovable mystical mentor stuff that is neither here nor there. Then they just simply don't answer what doesn't fit their narrative.

I want to see Len starting and doing heavy minutes. Tell me right now that doesn't have good potential for tanking this team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bledsoe and Chandler are not going to get you a top-five pick. Cavs are literally the only possibility there, and I am reasonably sure it is not going to happen. There is also no guarantee that the Nets pick will be in top five.

No one knows what picks are going to be top five at the moment. We thought the Nets pick was a lock, but now not sure. Dallas looks likely, and so does Sacramento. But those teams could pick up a little steam.

Bledsoe and Chandler are not going to net a top five pick, but they might net the right to swap for a pick that could end up top five. We could be so creative here.

We could trade for the right to swap the BETTER of the Suns 18 pick or the Heat 18 pick for the Nets pick, along with sending away Bledsoe (and whatever else).

We could trade for the right to swap BOTH the Suns pick and the Miami pick for the Nets pick, along with sending away Bledsoe.

That would have to be tempting to Cleveland. They get Bledsoe AND potentially two good picks for POTENTIALLY losing the Nets pick. They are going to be rebuilding after LeBron leaves. They need multiple assets. The Suns just need the best pick possible.

 

[BC867]

...there’s legitimate reason THIS year for wanting to do so.

But, Ouchie, now EVERY year is becoming THIS year. How long will it go on until we hit the jackpot, if we ever do? Especially after, what, eight years without a playoff appearance.

If it doesn't work again this year, isn't it fair to expect you to be promoting tanking again next year? And the year after?

We need a much more professional approach by management than tank-and-hope on and on.

Seriously, Ouchie, will you and pokerface be promoting another tank next season if we don't luck out in the draft and get a real difference-maker?

And, as far as making Len the starting Center and benching Chandler, how do you think that is going to affect the morale of our young players? We have already gotten hints from Booker. He knows what's going on.

 

[pokerface]

But, Ouchie, now EVERY year is becoming THIS year. How long will it go on until we hit the jackpot, if we ever do? Especially after, what, eight years without a playoff appearance.

If it doesn't work again this year, isn't it fair to expect you to be promoting tanking again next year? And the year after?

We need a much more professional approach by management than tank-and-hope on and on.

Seriously, Ouchie, will you and pokerface be promoting another tank next season if we don't luck out in the draft and get a real difference-maker?

This year is different than other years as far as the draft. I've already laid out the reasons why on this thread..

The suns are going to lose a lot of games and there is no shot at the playoffs...and if by some miracle they made the playoffs it would be a first round exit sweep. That isn't up for dispute by anyone.

I don't even know what you are advocating BC. Everyone wants the youngsters to play. Chandler needs to be dealt...he's in his final two seasons and is robbing Len of starting and proving himself.

All we have is the draft...Your solution is no solution. Play to win? That's what the suns are doing so what is your probIem? What are we supposed to do...cheer on a half baked season and watch our future center go down the drain? You drink that Koolaid

 

[BC867]

Everyone wants the youngsters to play. Chandler needs to be dealt...he's in his final two seasons and is robbing Len of starting and proving himself.

Well, then, how many years are we going to hope that that Len will develop into a solid Center? It almost symbolizes tanking. Keep hoping that a mediocre, inconsistent role-playing Center has the ability to, all of a sudden, be better than he has ever shown?

Of course, that is the Suns history. A decade of a 212 lb. Center, then one who constantly fouled out, both leaving us without power in the post when we needed it most. Two Finals appearances in 49 years.

 

[pokerface]

Hey BC...where do you think our talent has been coming from? Free agents? Trades? Our last big "score" outside the draft was Brandon Knight. Is that your alternative to the draft looks like??

 

[pokerface]

Well, then, how many years are we going to hope that that Len will develop into a solid Center? It almost symbolizes tanking. Keep hoping that a mediocre, inconsistent role-playing Center has the ability to, all of a sudden, be better than he has ever shown?

Of course, that is the Suns history. A decade of a 212 lb. Center, then one who constantly fouled out, both leaving us without power in the post when we needed it most. Two Finals appearances in 49 years.

What is your solution? Hang on to Chandler until his value goes down to zero and watch him mess up our next couple drafts? No thanks!

 

[BC867]

Hey BC...where do you think our talent has been coming from? Free agents? Trades? Our last big "score" outside the draft was Brandon Knight. Is that your alternative to the draft looks like??

The only way I can respond is that an experienced management team should know how to handle that without planning to lose again.

An neophyte owner and GM going through Head Coaches the way the Suns do should be able to figure it out beyond one half-season tank.

 

[BC867]

What is your solution? Hang on to Chandler until his value goes down to zero and watch him mess up our next couple drafts? No thanks!

Next couple of drafts?!? So you admit that you're already planning three tank seasons in a row, following a bunch of losing seasons. Ouch!

No, Chandler is not the solution, although his presence is a plus to the young players. The hanging-on I don't believe in is Len. He has had more than enough chances to become a starting Center and he has failed. All we need is a solid role player.