Dare I say the "T" word . . . ?

[SirStefan32]

Seems almost obsessive.

It really does. I will never understand how fans can have such a strong desire to lose. I understand the whole "Play the youngsters" thing, but the obsession with losing is beyind my comprehension.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It really does. I will never understand how fans can have such a strong desire to lose. I understand the whole "Play the youngsters" thing, but the obsession with losing is beyind my comprehension.

I think its about being a draft geek. Some of us are draft geeks for about 2-3 months of the year, and some just move from one draft right on to the next.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think its about being a draft geek. Some of us are draft geeks for about 2-3 months of the year, and some just move from one draft right on to the next.

If the NCAA season was going on and one or more of the top prospects were playing great and were being discussed then I could see that logic but that isn't the case. No prospects are being analyzed or discussed, I know they haven't played yet but they aren't talking about their high school stats, measurables, or anything. Specific players aren't being touted by any of the tank crowd, it's just the idea that we must get someone who is projected to be a top 5. The way they're selling it though makes it seem like this will be like the Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh draft all over again but no one knows where these players will stack up. I think it's safe to say it'll be better than the 2013 draft but that's about it. No draft eligible players are lighting it up elsewhere right now. No prospects games are being analyzed.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If the NCAA season was going on and one or more of the top prospects were playing great and were being discussed then I could see that logic but that isn't the case. No prospects are being analyzed or discussed, I know they haven't played yet but they aren't talking about their high school stats, measurables, or anything. Specific players aren't being touted by any of the tank crowd, it's just the idea that we must get someone who is projected to be a top 5. The way they're selling it though makes it seem like this will be like the Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh draft all over again but no one knows where these players will stack up. I think it's safe to say it'll be better than the 2013 draft but that's about it. No draft eligible players are lighting it up elsewhere right now. No prospects games are being analyzed.

C'mon Poopy. There is all kind of talk about Ayton, Doncic, Bagley, Porter, Bamba. Good grief, most of the draft geeks have already decided its a five player draft and want their team to tank into the top five. In fact, that is why everyone is talking about tanking so early this year. Teams cannot control who will be #1, but top five is a doable tank for a team that commits to it.

 

[Errntknght]

You're right PH, there is that to consider... I totally forgot this whole tank is built on very little information. Also, there are lots of slips between cup and lip when we have a whole season of data on the draftees. So it is a great stretch to think drafting in the top five is without significant risk. If it really is very good draft, a top five pick might have a 50-50 shot at being an all-star.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It really does. I will never understand how fans can have such a strong desire to lose. I understand the whole "Play the youngsters" thing, but the obsession with losing is beyind my comprehension.

Yes the obsession is “losing.”

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

No draft eligible players are lighting it up elsewhere right now. No prospects games are being analyzed.

Luka Doncic begs to differ!

(For the record, I'm rooting for the Suns to keep this winning thing going.)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If the NCAA season was going on and one or more of the top prospects were playing great and were being discussed then I could see that logic but that isn't the case. No prospects are being analyzed or discussed, I know they haven't played yet but they aren't talking about their high school stats, measurables, or anything. Specific players aren't being touted by any of the tank crowd, it's just the idea that we must get someone who is projected to be a top 5. The way they're selling it though makes it seem like this will be like the Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh draft all over again but no one knows where these players will stack up. I think it's safe to say it'll be better than the 2013 draft but that's about it. No draft eligible players are lighting it up elsewhere right now. No prospects games are being analyzed.

This is disingenuous. We aren’t talking about theoretical top 5. We are talking about bagley, porter, ayton, doncic and maybe bamba. Repeatedly. Man you guys just conveniently make up stuff to support your arguments. And that 5 could be like the lebron wade bosh Mell draft. THAT’S THE WHOLE FRIGGIN REASON WE WANT TO TANK. Not just to get any old top 5 pick. Cripes you’re not even paying attention to central operative facts in an argument in which you’re participating!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Luka Doncic begs to differ!

(For the record, I'm rooting for the Suns to keep this winning thing going.)

I have to admit, Doncic is impressive. I don't remember any player his age putting up numbers like that in Europe.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Luka Doncic begs to differ!

(For the record, I'm rooting for the Suns to keep this winning thing going.)

Thank you for at least keeping other posters honest.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I have to admit, Doncic is impressive. I don't remember any player his age putting up numbers like that in Europe.

I think that because none have.

 

[SirStefan32]

I have to admit, Doncic is impressive. I don't remember any player his age putting up numbers like that in Europe.

It's not even the numbers. I got my hands on some "tapes" a couple of months ago, and the kid looks amazing. It's like Dragic and Booker in one player (on offense and defense, unfortunately.)

 

[Hoop Head]

This is disingenuous. We aren’t talking about theoretical top 5. We are talking about bagley, porter, ayton, doncic and maybe bamba. Repeatedly. Man you guys just conveniently make up stuff to support your arguments. And that 5 could be like the lebron wade bosh Mell draft. THAT’S THE WHOLE FRIGGIN REASON WE WANT TO TANK. Not just to get any old top 5 pick. Cripes you’re not even paying attention to central operative facts in an argument in which you’re participating!

Those are the top 5 but who is to say they don't end up like Bennett, Oladipo, Porter, Zeller, and Len?

Those 5 are basically high schoolers right now. If high schoolers could still go straight to the NBA maybe 2 of the 5 would pan out. They may be the top 5 but that doesn't say all that much really. There have been drafts where the top prospects still ended up being average NBA players at best. All they've shown is they can dominate in high school. Doncic is a euro standout but how many of those pan out? Last one taken #1 was Bargnani I believe and he was nothing special. Or did Bogut come later? Decent pro, again though he was nothing special.

I'm not making anything up, my stance is we shouldn't commit to a tank before these kids show something to tank for. That's been consistent. It's November still. Tanking should not be seriously talked about until 2018.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Those are the top 5 but who is to say they don't end up like Bennett, Oladipo, Porter, Zeller, and Len?

Those 5 are basically high schoolers right now. If high schoolers could still go straight to the NBA maybe 2 of the 5 would pan out. They may be the top 5 but that doesn't say all that much really. There have been drafts where the top prospects still ended up being average NBA players at best. All they've shown is they can dominate in high school. Doncic is a euro standout but how many of those pan out? Last one taken #1 was Bargnani I believe and he was nothing special. Or did Bogut come later? Decent pro, again though he was nothing special.

I'm not making anything up, my stance is we shouldn't commit to a tank before these kids show something to tank for. That's been consistent. It's November still. Tanking should not be seriously talked about until 2018.

First, the guys you just listed were not as coveted as these top five. In fact the guys you listed were all considered lackluster top 5 picks. And NONE were as coveted as these guys coming out of high school. These guys are much more comparable in terms of projections to the lebron melo wade bosh draft (not in skills but value).

And yeah, you did make stuff up. This:
“No prospects are being analyzed or discussed, I know theyhaven't played yet but they aren't talking about their high school stats, measurables, or anything. Specific players aren't being touted by any of the tank crowd, it's just the idea that we must get someone who is projected to be a top 5. The way they're selling it though makes it seem like this will be like the Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh draft all over again...”

And btw it’s not the tankers “selling” it like this, it’s talent evaluators and the national press.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm talking about the tank crew though, the people here like you and pokerface. I was replying to JC's post about why people might be so pro-tank saying some people "I think its about being a draft geek. Some of us are draft geeks for about 2-3 months of the year, and some just move from one draft right on to the next." and you're quoting my response to that in which I say the tank crowd here don't seem to be that way. When I say "They're not talking about their high school stats or analyzing them" that's where I'm talking about you and Pokerface. You guys just want to tank, not so you can talk about the draft, you just want to lose and you're not discussing the merits of what player X brings to the table, you're talking about how many more games we can lose by trading away player Y. I said that in the post, do I really have to spell it out?

 

[pokerface]

The ppl that are knocking the draft don't have anything better to propose. Do you want to trade key players and picks for a guy like Porzingis? Do want a few more seasons of treading water? That's not turning my crank any.

Fans that want to keep Chandler mystify me. Getting rid of him could help our draft and could maybe net us a decent return. What's his final two years going to do for us...just being a "mentor"? Good grief.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The ppl that are knocking the draft don't have anything better to propose. Do you want to trade key players and picks for a guy like Porzingis? Do want a few more seasons of treading water? That's not turning my crank any.

Fans that want to keep Chandler mystify me. Getting rid of him could help our draft and could maybe net us a decent return. What's his final two years going to do for us...just being a "mentor"? Good grief.

Fair question. Championship teams usually have three stars.

We have one in Booker. We have others potentially in Warren, Jackson and Bender. Chriss is an outlier. I would like make sure we do not waste the talent we have. Player development is as important as player acquisition. We will be doing great if we can get one star player out of that bunch.

We have assets to get another star with tradeable pieces in multiple draft picks, and Bledsoe. There is also the 2019 free agency where we are angling to have enough space to sign two max free agents. Chandler is useful right now in the locker room for this group. If we can move him for something decent, that is fine too. But moving Chandler is not going to tank this team.

If we draft and trade correctly, we should have plenty of quality role players surrounding that three star core.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm talking about the tank crew though, the people here like you and pokerface. I was replying to JC's post about why people might be so pro-tank saying some people "I think its about being a draft geek. Some of us are draft geeks for about 2-3 months of the year, and some just move from one draft right on to the next." and you're quoting my response to that in which I say the tank crowd here don't seem to be that way. When I say "They're not talking about their high school stats or analyzing them" that's where I'm talking about you and Pokerface. You guys just want to tank, not so you can talk about the draft, you just want to lose and you're not discussing the merits of what player X brings to the table, you're talking about how many more games we can lose by trading away player Y. I said that in the post, do I really have to spell it out?

That’s just not true. Poker face and I have REPEATEDLY states that we want to tank SPECIFICALLY for THOSE five guys. I can show you multiple posts across a number of threads where I have referenced those same five guys by name. To state otherwise is literally making stuff up. And though I hate to use this word, to argue that you’re not making it up, in the face of evidence otherwise (cripes a third party just said we keep bringing up doncic, ayton, bamba, bagley and porter) is literally just lying.

 

[Mainstreet]

IMO, a draft geek should be excited about the whole draft because there can always be movement within the draft and trades.

Sometimes I miss because Slinslin because he analyzed the entire draft, not just the top picks. He had tiers for players throughout the draft.

I think draftniks are missing something if they do not study the whole draft.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

IMO, a draft geek should be excited about the whole draft because there can always be movement within the draft and trades.

Sometimes I miss because Slinslin because he analyzed the entire draft, not just the top picks. He had tiers for players throughout the draft.

I think draftniks are missing something if they do not study the whole draft.

I agree. I read the entirety of mock drafts and individual write-ups of the prospects because one never knows who rises, falls and whether you acquire picks later or earlier.

That said that shouldn’t necessarily dissuade someone from hoping for the top players.

 

[Raindog]

Fair question. Championship teams usually have three stars.

We have one in Booker. We have others potentially in Warren, Jackson and Bender. Chriss is an outlier. I would like make sure we do not waste the talent we have. Player development is as important as player acquisition. We will be doing great if we can get one star player out of that bunch.

We have assets to get another star with tradeable pieces in multiple draft picks, and Bledsoe. There is also the 2019 free agency where we are angling to have enough space to sign two max free agents. Chandler is useful right now in the locker room for this group. If we can move him for something decent, that is fine too. But moving Chandler is not going to tank this team.

If we draft and trade correctly, we should have plenty of quality role players surrounding that three star core.

If everyone of the youngsters hits their ceiling, MAYBE the Suns have a future as an upper echelon team... in about three more years.

But the probability that anyone else besides maybe Booker gets to that level is pretty slim. So it would definitely behoove the Suns to be in a position to add as many elite level talents as they can during this period of being one of the league's worst teams. Unfortunately, that means not overachieving... and really hoping for the team to be as bad as possible during years when the draft class is likely to feature multiple talents of that grade, like this year.... because not every draft class has even one of that quality of prospect.

As for free agency, you all really need to let that ship sail. The Suns are no longer players in the elite free agent market, due to the poor recent track record of the franchise and the general all around perception of their ownership and front office around the league. No free agents worth a plug nickel are coming here for the foreseeable future unless we somehow get back to the very top echelon of the league again. This isn't the JC era anymore where we were universally respected as a quality franchise.

We can still maybe make headway with some clever trades. McDonough seems to be doing his best there, but again we really have to hope on grabbing some undeveloped talent from another team (as Bledsoe was) and having it blossom here. Top level players will be resistant to coming here in a trade for all the same reasons as top level free agents.

Frankly, all those supporting the "tank" approach are really correct about it being the best approach. My only reservations about it are that A) you can't force or ask your team to deliberately play bad or lose games, B) you can only deliberately engineer a bad team to a certain degree to get you there, and C) you still have to depend on dumb luck to some extent in terms of still being worse than other bad teams AND getting the lucky breaks in the lottery. So no way is deliberately tanking a sure fire thing either. But if it somehow was, I agree with the tankers that the Suns should be doing their level best to tank this season, anyway.

 

[BC867]

I don’t care if they do slightly better in their 50th year compared to getting a great player for 20+ years.

Y'know, your argument sounds just like trying to win the lottery week after week at the expense of putting food on the table. The 'tank commanders' seem to have a tanking addiction. Maybe you should start a Tankers Anonymous group and meet three times a day.

Miss the playoffs season after season for close to a decade. Tank games from the start of the season. In hopes of "getting a great player for 20+ years".

Even if we were lucky enough to find that miracle (which we haven't for fifty years), come the next contract we wouldn't be able to afford to keep him.

For decades, I criticized Jerry's goal of making an appearance in the playoffs each year. Man, we have taken so many steps back, I would take that now as a stepping stone.

The odds of "getting a great player for 20+ years", at the ongoing expense of aiming to lose, are not in our favor. If they were, it wouldn't be an issue.

EDIT: 'Sorry Mainstreet, I forgot about your earlier post about an intervention.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Y'know, your argument sounds just like trying to win the lottery week after week at the expense of putting food on the table. The 'tank commanders' seem to have a tanking addiction. Maybe you should start a Tankers Anonymous group and meet three times a day.

Miss the playoffs season after season for close to a decade. Tank games from the start of the season. In hopes of "getting a great player for 20+ years".

Even if we were lucky enough to find that miracle (which we haven't for fifty years), come the next contract we wouldn't be able to afford to keep him.

For decades, I criticized Jerry's goal of making an appearance in the playoffs each year. Man, we have taken so many steps back, I would take that now as a stepping stone.

The odds of "getting a great player for 20+ years", at the ongoing expense of aiming to lose, are not in our favor. If they were, it wouldn't be an issue.

EDIT: 'Sorry Mainstreet, I forgot about your earlier post about an intervention.

Hyperbole much? Comparing losing 60 basketball games to failing to put food on table? Comparing a 1-in-30 (but really a LOT lower chance of youve successfully tanked) to 1-in-a-couple-million chance.

Yeah neither of those are comparable. Keep scratching for an argument that holds water. If you say something convincing I’ll concede. This far you’ve not even come close to hitting a mark.

 

[Hoop Head]

That’s just not true. Poker face and I have REPEATEDLY states that we want to tank SPECIFICALLY for THOSE five guys. I can show you multiple posts across a number of threads where I have referenced those same five guys by name. To state otherwise is literally making stuff up. And though I hate to use this word, to argue that you’re not making it up, in the face of evidence otherwise (cripes a third party just said we keep bringing up doncic, ayton, bamba, bagley and porter) is literally just lying.

I'm not lying you just refuse to see anything from a perspective other than yours.

Ok, where are you and him talking about those players in details and what they've accomplished so far? What they did to be recruited by the colleges they signed with. Mentioning their names isn't discussing them in detail like you'd think draft geeks would. Please show me one post where you talk about what they do that you like outside of them looking like some NBA player. That's the closest you've come to detail, saying Ayton looks like David Robinson.

 

[pokerface]

Oh boy, where do I begin?


Yeah someone needs an intervention...not sure its me though. Ahh...let's see now. So let me get this straight... Chandler doesn't hurt our tank? He's just a non factor good guy mentor? Well he put up a double double tonight. Yeah we didn't win but he's a factor on any given night. If Chandler is a non factor then why does he keep starting over Len?! Lets do this...let's yank Tyson off the team and make Len a full time starter and see what happens. Lets see his fouling butt out there nightly and watch his nasty plus/minus kick in and tell me he couldn't tank us to the promised land. If we keep Chandler holding down the fort it prevents Len from burning it to the ground. Also, for those wanting "player development"...ahh Len is in his fifth f'n season...he's not entitled to start yet?? He needs to be in Chandlers shadow? For the few Len supporters that are left you should be ticked off Chandler is still on this team keep Lenny boy down!


Oh and another thing. I'm glad Bledsoe is leaving because he still would win suns games. He would get it going and maybe Triano would be a factor. I'm not buying for a minute that Bledsoe would tank the suns for a full season. And Poop Head I'm not worried too much about what we get back in trade..it will be a developing/lessor player and or draft picks.