Dare I say the "T" word . . . ?

[Cheesebeef]

Really, it is in the Suns best interest this year to be bottom 4 or 5 bad. But let's face it the Suns rarely have things work out that are in their best interest. So yeah, they are most likely going to be better than people expect this year, win 35 or so games, get the 14th pick in the draft where there are no players of consequence available... then next season take two steps backwards and get a top 5 pick in the 2019 draft where they end up with the next incarnation of Alex Len.

Book it.

This makes me

 

[Mainstreet]

That's nonsense. Players play for their own contracts and coaches don't tell players to lose.

What do you call sitting a player like Bledsoe last season who would help the Suns win. And remember, Watson was unhappy about it as well. You can play with words but you can't play with behavior.

Good players play for more than their contracts.

If you want to talk about tanking be honest about it. There are lots of ways to manipulate draft standings.

I think the Suns did the right thing last season by sitting Bledsoe and Chandler for a better draft position.

Generally playing young players is another way to lose unless those players, with good coaching, have reached the point in their development where they are ready to win. The Suns may be at this point. We shall see.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Action speaks louder than words.

The Suns holding Bledsoe and Chandler out amounted to the same thing... intentional losing.

Bledsoe was not happy about it.

Come on Ouchie.

The intimation was the team was telling the players to lose and (a) that’s not the case, and (b) they stacked the cards against wins but the young guys still played hard and actually won a handful of games. Bottom line, it didn’t result in this mythical detriment to the young guys mentality as some here are claiming.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I may have mentioned it in a previous post, but I have been thinking about how important it really is.

The Phoenix Suns are marketing its Suns At 50 theme all season long. This is not the season to deflate that promotion by trying to be among the worst teams in the league for the sake of a draft pick.

Can you imagine Cadillac investing more money in advertising than ever before while coming out with its blandest style ever?

From a marketing perspective, it makes no sense. And would have been a total waste of money.

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Eh this argument holds ZERO water for me. 50 years comes around ONCE. They can’t time when they want to do that promotion. Pers Balky I don’t care if they do slightly better in their 50th year compared to getting a great player for 20+ years. In fact, I don’t think the 50th season has any relevance to this conversation at all in this thread and you’re grasping at straws.

 

[pokerface]

In fact, I don’t think the 50th season has any relevance to this conversation at all in this thread and you’re grasping at straws.

 

[Chaplin]

How do you tankers suggest we "tank" then? Simply not play Booker and TJ Warren? Why play any of the starters at all?

 

[pokerface]

How do you tankers suggest we "tank" then? Simply not play Booker and TJ Warren? Why play any of the starters at all?

All I'm saying is "for now" deal Chandler and Bledsoe. That's all I'm asking for right now. If late in the season the standings are tight then maybe bench a player or better yet just dole out minutes sporadically.

I don't think that's unreasonable considering how much is riding on this draft.

 

[Hoop Head]

The intimation was the team was telling the players to lose and (a) that’s not the case, and (b) they stacked the cards against wins but the young guys still played hard and actually won a handful of games. Bottom line, it didn’t result in this mythical detriment to the young guys mentality as some here are claiming.

They didn't win a handful of games after Bledsoe was sat last year, they won 2 of the final 15 games last season. They wracked up 12 of those losses right after Bledsoe was benched. If you don't think a 12 game losing streak hurt the young players mentally once the veterans were sat then you don't think much of the players as competitors. Sure the young guys played hard but fans were mad when they won. The fans rooted against them when they snapped that losing streak and won 2 of their final 3 games. Everything was upside down for them. Losing like that messes with any athlete, especially those with little to no NBA experience who don't have a good teacher or coach to help them through it. It took Triano taking over and canning almost all of their assistant coaches to get them back and believing in themselves.

They were trying to lose, there's no other way to put it and if you go back and pull up game threads or discussions from those final 3-4 games it's obvious the Suns were tanking by who they played and when during those final games. Why else would they play Derrick Jones Jr 27 minutes to Booker's 22 against Dallas? If the Lakers didn't win their 2nd to last game and guarantee the Suns the #2 spot in the lottery drawing then fans would have been calling for Booker to be benched and Ronnie Price named starter in his place, which they were doing anyways but the calls for that would have louder.

 

[Hoop Head]

All I'm saying is "for now" deal Chandler and Bledsoe. That's all I'm asking for right now. If late in the season the standings are tight then maybe bench a player or better yet just dole out minutes sporadically.

I don't think that's unreasonable considering how much is riding on this draft.

Honestly trading Bledsoe right now would probably hurt the "tank" because we'd get someone who can play in return and they'd be helping us win. Don't look now but the Suns are 500 and have won 4 of their last 5.

 

[Mainstreet]

The intimation was the team was telling the players to lose and (a) that’s not the case, and (b) they stacked the cards against wins but the young guys still played hard and actually won a handful of games. Bottom line, it didn’t result in this mythical detriment to the young guys mentality as some here are claiming.

No this was not my intimation. The Suns were actually sitting Bledsoe and Chandler last season so the team would lose more games.

Telling the players to lose intentionally would amount to fixing games... so this was never an option.

However, sitting key players accomplished the same thing which many NBA teams do.

Another strategy is to play younger, less experience players to accomplish a tank.

I think we are quibbling over strategy of how to lose games intentionally to get a better draft pick.

 

[Mainstreet]

How do you tankers suggest we "tank" then? Simply not play Booker and TJ Warren? Why play any of the starters at all?

This will be the next step for the almighty tank. Most likely Warren because he gets less publicity.

 

[JCSunsfan]

All I'm saying is "for now" deal Chandler and Bledsoe. That's all I'm asking for right now. If late in the season the standings are tight then maybe bench a player or better yet just dole out minutes sporadically.

I don't think that's unreasonable considering how much is riding on this draft.

I don't mind angling for the draft, but I think the way to do it is to trade Bledsoe (and Chandler if there is a reasonable deal AND he is interested) for quality picks or options to swap picks. That way we can be in the draft AND let our kids play.

I think the losing now is just really wearing on our young bunch and will do damage to them long term. So, in effect, losing now undoes the effectiveness of previous tanks. The talent and development of this group is now beyond our ability to tank without doing real damage to their development and relationships with the young players.

 

[Mainstreet]

All I'm saying is "for now" deal Chandler and Bledsoe. That's all I'm asking for right now. If late in the season the standings are tight then maybe bench a player or better yet just dole out minutes sporadically.

I don't think that's unreasonable considering how much is riding on this draft.

You will want more if trading Bledsoe and Chandler is not enough. Your appetite for losing is insatiable.

I can see it now... start Derrick Jones Jr. over Warren. LOL

 

[JCSunsfan]

You will want more if trading Bledsoe and Chandler is not enough. Your appetite for losing is insatiable.

Seems almost obsessive.

 

[Mainstreet]

Seems almost obsessive.

I think we will have to do an intervention.

 

[pokerface]

Well jeesh guys. Tank right or don't tank. Why do half measures? Why wait until it's too late to tank? You guys want a average team or do you want something super exciting for the next decade? Whats it worth to you?

 

[Mainstreet]

Well jeesh guys. Tank right or don't tank. Why do half measures? Why wait until it's too late to tank? You guys want a average team or do you want something super exciting for the next decade? Whats it worth to you?

So what is your starting lineup tonight? Don't give half measures.

Is Alec Peters going to be your PF and why not if this is not the case.

And you will need to play Derrick Jones Jr. as well. I mean, you don't want to chance winning do you?

And Booker will need some rest... yes.

 

[JCSunsfan]

OK. Let's take the best teams in the league right now. How many years did they tank to become good?

1. Golden State
2. San Antonio
3. Houston
4. Boston

Add others if you like.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I am strongly against trading Chandler at this point. He is far too important to this team from a leadership standpoint that I don't think we trade him. I'm ok with maybe lowering his minutes a little and maybe bringing him off the bench behind Len, but as long as this team is playing like they are right now you have to ride it out and see whee it goes. Maybe it will be a flash in the pan and they will fall back to earth or maybe it is no fluke and they continue to win near this recent rate. Either way we have to give this unit a chance to see where this goes.

 

[Phrazbit]

Well jeesh guys. Tank right or don't tank. Why do half measures? Why wait until it's too late to tank? You guys want a average team or do you want something super exciting for the next decade? Whats it worth to you?

We didn't start to tank last year until the all-star break, we finished with the 2nd worst record.

You're WAY ahead of yourself.

 

[Hoop Head]

I am strongly against trading Chandler at this point. He is far too important to this team from a leadership standpoint that I don't think we trade him. I'm ok with maybe lowering his minutes a little and maybe bringing him off the bench behind Len, but as long as this team is playing like they are right now you have to ride it out and see whee it goes. Maybe it will be a flash in the pan and they will fall back to earth or maybe it is no fluke and they continue to win near this recent rate. Either way we have to give this unit a chance to see where this goes.

Saw Yahoo had this on their frontpage of their sports section today, an article about Chandler embracing his role as mentor to our young team. I'm not sure if the Suns are trying to trade him or not, some reports said we were then stuff like this gets put out there. It was reported before that he could have been moved last year but he declined and I'm curious if that happened again. Would it matter if he declined this year also?

https://sports.yahoo.com/suns-cente...g-positive-difficult-situation-155240806.html

 

[Chaplin]

All I'm saying is "for now" deal Chandler and Bledsoe. That's all I'm asking for right now. If late in the season the standings are tight then maybe bench a player or better yet just dole out minutes sporadically.

I don't think that's unreasonable considering how much is riding on this draft.

Considering Bledsoe isn't playing and has had no part in our current wins, that has nothing to do with tanking. In fact, Bledsoe NOT playing has done more against tanking!

Chandler, however, isn't the end-all and be-all. No matter what you think, the Suns aren't going to lose every game if Chandler isn't on the floor. As soon as he's gone and we're STILL winning, you're still going to have to come up with an answer about how to tank. Trading Chandler isn't going to do it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

They didn't win a handful of games after Bledsoe was sat last year, they won 2 of the final 15 games last season. They wracked up 12 of those losses right after Bledsoe was benched. If you don't think a 12 game losing streak hurt the young players mentally once the veterans were sat then you don't think much of the players as competitors. Sure the young guys played hard but fans were mad when they won. The fans rooted against them when they snapped that losing streak and won 2 of their final 3 games. Everything was upside down for them. Losing like that messes with any athlete, especially those with little to no NBA experience who don't have a good teacher or coach to help them through it. It took Triano taking over and canning almost all of their assistant coaches to get them back and believing in themselves.
.

It hurt them so much that in the very next season, with just changing a coach and benching a player they reeled off a 4-1 record. In other words tanking last season has had ZERO lasting effect (not even a short term impact apparently).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't mind angling for the draft, but I think the way to do it is to trade Bledsoe (and Chandler if there is a reasonable deal AND he is interested) for quality picks or options to swap picks. That way we can be in the draft AND let our kids play.

I think the losing now is just really wearing on our young bunch and will do damage to them long term. So, in effect, losing now undoes the effectiveness of previous tanks. The talent and development of this group is now beyond our ability to tank without doing real damage to their development and relationships with the young players.

I keep seeing this concept of losing “damaging” development and it’s being portrayed as a given and history shows this couldn’t be further from the truth. Really young guys coming into the league typically begin their careers with bad teams. Those teams typically remain bad for a while. Some for a long time. And it doesn’t indelibly damage the players. Just look at the celtics. Garnett was on historically futile teams. And he was raw coming into the league from high school. He not only developed but when he was finally in a good team with talent he won big. And Paul pierce came into the league on a Bad team. So bad in fact that they had assets to trade for KG and Allen. And he was so “damaged” by his losing that he won a championship. And kyrie was on putrid teams. Didn’t seem to damage his ability to dominate a finals once he had great talent.

So you can’t sell me the losing damages players because empirical evidence points to the contrary.

 

[Ronin]

We didn't start to tank last year until the all-star break, we finished with the 2nd worst record.

You're WAY ahead of yourself.

Just to add to this. The Lakers started 10-10 and completely fell off the map, and still ended up with the #2 pick.