Deandre Ayton discussion

[GatorAZ]

You can pick and choose metrics to rip or boost a player’s impact. Even if you remove the few guys with high metrics on low minutes Ayton still doesn’t crack the top-20 centers in RAPM.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/9

He’s also #92 in VORP:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp

 

[JCSunsfan]

Hmmm. I am going to have to watch this more carefully. I always thought of Ayton as a much better than average pass receiver. I wonder if this is common among big men. Do any of you watch any other centers as closely as you watch Ayton?

Embiid for instance? Not trying to defend or anything, just want to try to get an accurate picture.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hmmm. I am going to have to watch this more carefully. I always thought of Ayton as a much better than average pass receiver. I wonder if this is common among big men. Do any of you watch any other centers as closely as you watch Ayton?

Embiid for instance? Not trying to defend or anything, just want to try to get an accurate picture.

Hmmm... I primarily just watch the Suns. But when they go up against other good big men, I don’t feel like they’ve got skillet hands. That’s something I’ll pay attention to moving forward. But also, it’s not like we haven’t had other big men over the years. Barkley had incredible hands, same as Amare.

and Duncan, Shaq, Dream, Robinson weren’t fumblerooskis with the ball.

 

[Mainstreet]

You can pick and choose metrics to rip or boost a player’s impact. Even if you remove the few guys with high metrics on low minutes Ayton still doesn’t crack the top-20 centers in RAPM.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/9

He’s also #92 in VORP:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp

Suns may need your assistance when they negotiate a new contract with Ayton.

 

[GatorAZ]

Suns may need your assistance when they negotiate a new contract with Ayton.

Bukstein has it covered.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

lol... Borderline All-Star? I’d bet dollars to donuts he didn’t get even a handful of votes from the coaches or players to get him there.

14/11/1 isn’t a borderline All-Star. The 24th ranked C by per isn’t a borderline All-Star. And Borderline All-Stars aren’t continually yelled at on the court by their legit All-Star leader/PG because they’re not playing up to their potential.

Note he went from “DPOY” to “borderline all star.”

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Hmmm... I primarily just watch the Suns. But when they go up against other good big men, I don’t feel like they’ve got skillet hands. That’s something I’ll pay attention to moving forward. But also, it’s not like we haven’t had other big men over the years. Barkley had incredible hands, same as Amare.

and Duncan, Shaq, Dream, Robinson weren’t fumblerooskis with the ball.

This. In addition someone else pointed out earlier that we don’t see all these turnovers feeding book, frank, or Dario in the post so it isn’t that we just have a collection of players who have no ability to feed the post.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

You can pick and choose metrics to rip or boost a player’s impact. Even if you remove the few guys with high metrics on low minutes Ayton still doesn’t crack the top-20 centers in RAPM.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/9

He’s also #92 in VORP:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp

The stats match the eyes in this case.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Hmmm. I am going to have to watch this more carefully. I always thought of Ayton as a much better than average pass receiver. I wonder if this is common among big men. Do any of you watch any other centers as closely as you watch Ayton?

Embiid for instance? Not trying to defend or anything, just want to try to get an accurate picture.

This problem with Ayton is not new, I complained about it when he was playing in college. I can't remember if it was on this forum or the one that Superbone frequents but in a draft thread I mentioned how he goes from having great hands to fumbling everything with no rhyme nor reason for the shift (that I can see). He can catch or grab anything except for those nights, halves, quarters where he can't grab anything cleanly.

I don't think any player can stand up to the scrutiny this forum gives Ayton especially in the game threads. But DA has stretches where his play is so bad it's tough to not call him out on it. I just have a problem with sweeping proclamations about him. He isn't a waste, he isn't just the center version of Rubio, he isn't a DPOY candidate but even with his huge warts we are a much better team because of him. And if he always played like he occasionally plays, we probably wouldn't have more than 2 or 3 losses.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This problem with Ayton is not new, I complained about it when he was playing in college. I can't remember if it was on this forum or the one that Superbone frequents but in a draft thread I mentioned how he goes from having great hands to fumbling everything with no rhyme nor reason for the shift (that I can see). He can catch or grab anything except for those nights, halves, quarters where he can't grab anything cleanly.

I don't think any player can stand up to the scrutiny this forum gives Ayton especially in the game threads. But DA has stretches where his play is so bad it's tough to not call him out on it. I just have a problem with sweeping proclamations about him. He isn't a waste, he isn't just the center version of Rubio, he isn't a DPOY candidate but even with his huge warts we are a much better team because of him. And if he always played like he occasionally plays, we probably wouldn't have more than 2 or 3 losses.

I agree with all this. I know I’m one of the most consistent (if not the most consistent) critics but it’s not because I think Ayton “sucks” it’s because he shows glimpses of what he can be, but they only show up for a half, or a game, or on really rare occasions a 3 1/2 game stretch like earlier this season. I think when you combine that with his contract-related comments and getting tattoos it leads me to question his motivation and drive.

 

[Suns_fan69]

IF THE PASS IS INACCURATE OR THROWN POORLY THE TURNOVER IS ON THE PASSER.

jfc

Even if the pass is accurate to Ayton the TO is on the passer.

Here are a couple exaples from NBA.com stats:
Last TO in this set: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=TOV&GameID=0022000496&PlayerID=1626164&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

1st and 4th one in this set: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=TOV&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022000319&PlayerID=101108&RangeType=0&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612756&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Sup ya’ll

better than KAT tonight? Where ya’ll hidin?

 

[Bobster]

I have no interest in KAT and his defense.

 

[Hoop Head]

Sup ya’ll

better than KAT tonight? Where ya’ll hidin?

We're waiting on you to acknowledge that you were wrong about how turnovers are recorded.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sup ya’ll

better than KAT tonight? Where ya’ll hidin?

Uh we were all praising him in the game thread.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have no interest in KAT and his defense.

And Ayton is three years younger.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We're waiting on you to acknowledge that you were wrong about how turnovers are recorded.

Yup there was an obvious CLANG off Ayton’s hands in the paint tonight. Really good pass too. Ayton has zero turnovers in the box. That’s called immediate evidence.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Yup there was an obvious CLANG off Ayton’s hands in the paint tonight. Really good pass too. Ayton has zero turnovers in the box. That’s called immediate evidence.

I'm guessing you mean this TO by Cam Johnson (second highlight): https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=TOV&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022000526&PlayerID=1629661&RangeType=0&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612756&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm guessing you mean this TO by Cam Johnson (second highlight): https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=TOV&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022000526&PlayerID=1629661&RangeType=0&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612756&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

Yup. The pass is directly to Ayton just a bit above his waist and he fumbles it down and then it bounces up to him and he hits to toward a defender. And it’s scored Cam’s turnover not Ayton’s. That’s a good pass that goes against cam, not Ayton who fumbled it.

 

[Chaplin]

Yup there was an obvious CLANG off Ayton’s hands in the paint tonight. Really good pass too. Ayton has zero turnovers in the box. That’s called immediate evidence.

To be fair, most players, no matter how good they are, are going to have a play or two like that in every game.

My problem is that outside of the 4th quarter he wasn't actually doing anything offensively at all.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

To be fair, most players, no matter how good they are, are going to have a play or two like that in every game.

My problem is that outside of the 4th quarter he wasn't actually doing anything offensively at all.

Again, I didn’t bring it up to complain about him. I brought it up in the context of what we were speaking about earlier today, that the passer gets the turnover in that scenario even if it’s the fumbler at fault.

tonight was a good game, imo, for Ayton on the hands front. That time and the rebound in traffic where he brought the ball down and had it stripped outta his hands (but it went out on the wolves) were the only two bad hands moments he had in the game. That’s pretty good.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Ayton > Luka now in win shares.

BIG FELLA taking bodies.

 

[95pro]

Hmmm. I am going to have to watch this more carefully. I always thought of Ayton as a much better than average pass receiver. I wonder if this is common among big men. Do any of you watch any other centers as closely as you watch Ayton?

Embiid for instance? Not trying to defend or anything, just want to try to get an accurate picture.

I do watch our other guys like Kam and Saric, they catch the ball cleanly more so than DA. They also have better post moves for sure, lately Ayton has been utilizing timing and pump fakes more and more. Before he would shrivel up and pass the ball out without even thinking about the rim.

 

[Chaplin]

Ayton > Luka now in win shares.

BIG FELLA taking bodies.

Which means precisely nothing. Luka has nobody close to CP3 and Book on that roster.

Happy we are better than the Mavs, but you’ll be hard pressed to prove Ayton is better based on that stat.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

And Ayton is three years younger.

My, how the narrative has shifted!