Deandre Ayton discussion

[AzStevenCal]

I suspect Ayton worries about getting early fouls in the game.

It almost seems when he is not strapped with fouls entering the fourth quarter, he feels free to play more aggressive.

I'm liking fourth quarter Ayton. As long as he keeps doing this I'm not going to be overly concerned with stats.

I agree he worries about fouls but I just can't buy this excuse. And he doesn't come alive in the 4th every game. He's only done it maybe 4 or 5 times. I agree about not being concerned about his stats if he can defend like this but I am concerned about his impact on the defense when he plays like he did in the early quarters last night.

Our defense was a joke for much of the game in large part because of him. Our defense was stellar for the last 10 or 15 minutes of the game almost entirely because of him. When he plays like that, the refs give him a lot of respect. He's far more likely to pick up fouls when he's giving less than full effort IMO. And I'm confident that's been pointed out to him.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Is Mark Bryant still our big man coach? I feel like if he worked with someone like Olajuwan or Timmy D he’d be more likely live up to his potential with finesse and skill type play since he doesn’t look like he’ll ever be punisher in the post...

 

[AzStevenCal]

Is Mark Bryant still our big man coach? I feel like if he worked with someone like Olajuwan or Timmy D he’d be more likely live up to his potential with finesse and skill type play since he doesn’t look like he’ll ever be punisher in the post...

Maybe but he wasn't a force in the Duncan or Olajuwan mold last night and yet the Ayton we saw in the 4th quarter had just as much of an impact on the game as Tim or Hakeem ever had. On offense he cut to the basket aggressively and on D he was just everywhere. Make last night's 4th quarter Ayton our full time center and we'll be a legitimate championship contender.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

He has a PER of 18.3, which makes him the 24th ranked center, so no one is overreacting when they criticize his game. He has all the potential in the world, but your max players shouldn't disappear as much as he does, and that's why ppl get on him so much. Also, there's a reason why other teams will put much smaller defenders on him, because they know he's clueless in the paint. If he played to 80% of his potential this thread wouldn't exist, but he's just mentally not there.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is Mark Bryant still our big man coach? I feel like if he worked with someone like Olajuwan or Timmy D he’d be more likely live up to his potential with finesse and skill type play since he doesn’t look like he’ll ever be punisher in the post...

I think you may have fairy memories of those guys. They reached averaged 7 free throws per game through their first three seasons in the league. We’re they shaq? No. But despite their skill they did a LOT of damage in the post.

 

[Raze]

Curious what’s going on with Ayton’s rebounding. After averaging 14.1 rebounds per game for a 12 game stretch he’s been averaging 8.8 rebounds per game over the last 9 games during which 6 were single digit games. I know two of those he had fewer minutes, but it seems like a big difference.

I've been wondering the same thing. I can see two reasons for the decline in numbers.

1. There are two Aytons I've seen this year: a)one locked in, and b)one in the clouds.

a) When he's locked in you can tell. He's crashing boards, attacking the rim, dunking the ball, aggressively boxing out, verbally involved.

b) When he's in the clouds, YOU CAN TELL, or at least my wife and kids can tell because I'm constantly yelling at the TV. He's passive, weak in the lane, spectating rather than participating, and he catches balls like StoneHands from Necessary Roughness ("The ball is my friend"). I've seen this guy quite a bit in the last few games.

Last night I was yelling at him for the first quarter or so, and then cheering for him the rest. That's the first time I've seen him "switch" midgame.

2. Teams have been watching film on us and taking advantage of the way we switch on D. DA is getting ISOed on the G a lot and taking him out of position to board. That's going to reduce his numbers. This is certainly not his fault.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Maybe but he wasn't a force in the Duncan or Olajuwan mold last night and yet the Ayton we saw in the 4th quarter had just as much of an impact on the game as Tim or Hakeem ever had. On offense he cut to the basket aggressively and on D he was just everywhere. Make last night's 4th quarter Ayton our full time center and we'll be a legitimate championship contender.

I agree if he played like last night all the time we’d all be happier with him. I feel though like he did show potential to be a consistent scoring option in the post before this season. Like one of the other posters said the championship contenders have multiple options to be able to score

 

[ProdigalSun]

I think you may have fairy memories of those guys. They reached averaged 7 free throws per game through their first three seasons in the league. We’re they shaq? No. But despite their skill they did a LOT of damage in the post.

I know all I’m saying that Ayton could potentially live up to being dominating if he molded his post game more in the style of the TD and Olajuwan. These guys were certainly not bullies in the post. They beat people with footwork and good fundamentals. I mean lets face it...Ayton is never going to be even Amare-lite much less Shaq down low

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree if he played like last night all the time we’d all be happier with him. I feel though like he did show potential to be a consistent scoring option in the post before this season. Like one of the other posters said the championship contenders have multiple options to be able to score

We have multiple options to score, with or without him. Two strong scoring threats with five other players that average double digits is more than enough IMO. It would be nice to have him score 6 more points a game but IMO he'd probably be a 20+ scorer anyway if he just played as aggressively all the time as he did in the second half yesterday. And even if he never adds a single thing to his offensive game, the impact he had on our defense late last light is superstar level already. I'd much rather his focus be on playing like that all the time.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree he worries about fouls but I just can't buy this excuse. And he doesn't come alive in the 4th every game. He's only done it maybe 4 or 5 times. I agree about not being concerned about his stats if he can defend like this but I am concerned about his impact on the defense when he plays like he did in the early quarters last night.

Our defense was a joke for much of the game in large part because of him. Our defense was stellar for the last 10 or 15 minutes of the game almost entirely because of him. When he plays like that, the refs give him a lot of respect. He's far more likely to pick up fouls when he's giving less than full effort IMO. And I'm confident that's been pointed out to him.

I'm only offering a possible explanation for why we see the best of Ayton in the fourth quarter.

When Ayton is not in foul trouble he has done it enough to make me wonder. I don't have a better ready explanation available except this is a trait of the Suns team as well. They tend to turn up the intensity in the fourth quarter. It could be a coaching thing or a substitution pattern that ignites it.

In regard to last night specifically, limiting fouls might have been discussed with the coaching staff. Ayton and Kaminsky were the Suns only two centers available.

 

[taz02]

We need Ayton to score reliably inside when our 3's aren't falling.

He obviously thinks to much when the ball is thrown to him, he is worried about making a mistake. It's why, sometimes he catches the ball in the paint and doesn't even look at the basket, he doesn't want to miss.

I wonder if maybe Booker and Paul should lay off a bit and let him play. He needs confidence and to feel comfortable in his roll, kind of hard to do with Paul and Booker on him.

Its frustrating to think how good we would be if he could get it together.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We need Ayton to score reliably inside when our 3's aren't falling.

He obviously thinks to much when the ball is thrown to him, he is worried about making a mistake. It's why, sometimes he catches the ball in the paint and doesn't even look at the basket, he doesn't want to miss.

I wonder if maybe Booker and Paul should lay off a bit and let him play. He needs confidence and to feel comfortable in his roll, kind of hard to do with Paul and Booker on him.

Its frustrating to think how good we would be if he could get it together.

He can score just fine in the two man game with Paul or Booker like he did late last night as long as he's focused (going hard to the hoop and not fumbling passes). We have one of the better offenses, it's our balance that makes us so dangerous. And that balance only occurs when he's playing focused and aggressive.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Ayton is up to 24th in WS, right behind you-know-who.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ayton is up to 24th in WS, right behind you-know-who.

According to that list Zion was deserving of his all star selection over Book.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

According to that list Zion was deserving of his all star selection over Book.

Easily. Booker has been just above average-good this year. He was very good last year, and elite in the bubble.

 

[Dr. Jones]

After watching CP3 this year...... Ayton is the Ricky Rubio of centers. Maybe even worse. But he will have a good game/half/quarter just often enough to tantalize us.

I'm trying to get over my utter disgust with his on-court demeanor and intensity. It's just not worth it.

 

[GatorAZ]

Easily. Booker has been just above average-good this year. He was very good last year, and elite in the bubble.

The metrics have never been kind to Booker. WS/48, RAPM and VORP all hate him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

After watching CP3 this year...... Ayton is the Ricky Rubio of centers. Maybe even worse. But he will have a good game/half/quarter just often enough to tantalize us.

I'm trying to get over my utter disgust with his on-court demeanor and intensity. It's just not worth it.

He’s the Andrew Wiggins of centers. Rubio doesn’t have the natural talent and athleticism both those guys do.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

The metrics have never been kind to Booker. WS/48, RAPM and VORP all hate him.

That’s because those data incorporate more basketball stuff than just dagger Kobe turnaround Js.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

WS list

24. DA
154. Wiggins
212. Rubio

lol fans

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

I AM SO DISGUSTED OUR 22 YEAR OLD CENTER IS ONLY

*checks notes*

24TH IN WIN IMPACT THIS YEAR

I’m done with him!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

WS list

24. DA
154. Wiggins
212. Rubio

lol fans

Meh, I kinda laugh at people who solely depend on metrics. They are worthwhile in examining players, but only as a single data point. They fail to measure so much action on the court that relying solely on them in arguments is virtually useless.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Not utilizing them at all is completely useless.

How else do you measure value if not by “metrics”?

your eyes are more laden w/bias than you’ll ever know

 

[AzStevenCal]

Meh, I kinda laugh at people who solely depend on metrics. They are worthwhile in examining players, but only as a single data point. They fail to measure so much action on the court that relying solely on them in arguments is virtually useless.

Yeah. For example, how much better would Booker and Paul's metrics look if Ayton actually caught all the catchable passes thrown to him and slammed them home. Fewer turnovers and more assists would change things considerably. Likewise, if Ayton, instead of the guards, actually got charged a turnover every time he failed to grab those catchable passes, his metrics would take a dive. And, take a look at last night's game - Ayton did a lot of things that won't show up in the stats but had a huge impact on the game (negative impact early - great impact late).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not utilizing them at all is completely useless.

How else do you measure value if not by “metrics”?

your eyes are more laden w/bias than you’ll ever know

Metrics miss EVERYTHING between measurable actions. For instance, something cheese and I have been noticing is Ayton may shut down a driver and then just stand out of bounds and watch the other play continue to unfold. He would’ve gotten credit (and rightfully so) for a defensive play, but it’s like he has an attitude of “I did my job, your turn.” Whereas if he got back into the play he could maybe block a shot, prevent an offensive rebound, or at least take up space. Watch him. It happens with increasing frequency. Stats don’t measure that. They also don’t award turnovers to him when passes clang off his hands, or fails to seal his defender effectively . . . they go to the passer. So that stuff doesn’t factor into the metrics. Hence the silliness of relying solely on metrics.