Deandre Ayton discussion

[Sunburn]

WS list

24. DA
154. Wiggins
212. Rubio

lol fans

Can you source your data please?

 

[Hoop Head]

Can you source your data please?

He's getting his stats from BB Reference

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws

 

[Cheesebeef]

Metrics miss EVERYTHING between measurable actions. For instance, something cheese and I have been noticing is Ayton may shut down a driver and then just stand out of bounds and watch the other play continue to unfold. He would’ve gotten credit (and rightfully so) for a defensive play, but it’s like he has an attitude of “I did my job, your turn.” Whereas if he got back into the play he could maybe block a shot, prevent an offensive rebound, or at least take up space. Watch him. It happens with increasing frequency. Stats don’t measure that. They also don’t award turnovers to him when passes clang off his hands, or fails to seal his defender effectively . . . they go to the passer. So that stuff doesn’t factor into the metrics. Hence the silliness of relying solely on metrics.

We do sound like Ayton stalkers some times.

I think it’s born of having so many expectations for the kid and being SOOOOOO stoked to get him because of his potential and just being let down, not by his talent, but his drive to be great. He’s GOT that in him.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Yeah. For example, how much better would Booker and Paul's metrics look if Ayton actually caught all the catchable passes thrown to him and slammed them home. Fewer turnovers and more assists would change things considerably. Likewise, if Ayton, instead of the guards, actually got charged a turnover every time he failed to grab those catchable passes, his metrics would take a dive. And, take a look at last night's game - Ayton did a lot of things that won't show up in the stats but had a huge impact on the game (negative impact early - great impact late).

You should read

http://www.basketballonpaper.com/

and you would know that in your example of Ayton dropping a pass his WS would drop at the same rate as Paul/Booker’s for making the dropped pass.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Metrics miss EVERYTHING between measurable actions. For instance, something cheese and I have been noticing is Ayton may shut down a driver and then just stand out of bounds and watch the other play continue to unfold. He would’ve gotten credit (and rightfully so) for a defensive play, but it’s like he has an attitude of “I did my job, your turn.” Whereas if he got back into the play he could maybe block a shot, prevent an offensive rebound, or at least take up space. Watch him. It happens with increasing frequency. Stats don’t measure that. They also don’t award turnovers to him when passes clang off his hands, or fails to seal his defender effectively . . . they go to the passer. So that stuff doesn’t factor into the metrics. Hence the silliness of relying solely on metrics.

Dude, literally everything you described IS MEASURED BY WIN SHARES.
Lmao. You clearly have no idea of the formula used to derive the information. But go off king!

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Incredible. Making my case for me. Easier than the courtroom, for sure.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

With eye test bias leading to the errors. I’m dying!

 

[Hoop Head]

Dude, literally everything you described IS MEASURED BY WIN SHARES.
Lmao. You clearly have no idea of the formula used to derive the information. But go off king!

If a player drops a pass, or fumbles it, it wouldn't go against their win share because they're not credited with the possession. So you're incorrect on that. If they had credit for the possession then the turnover would count against them, not the passer.

If you believe otherwise then please provide the source you're using to back it up. Its not basketballonpaper either, I looked there and BB Ref and it makes zero mention of that instance.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Offensive rating is a component of points produced. A rising tide lifts all boats, hombré.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

There are holes in Ayton's game, there is no doubt and mostly on his establishing a dominant offensive presence, but his physical presence in the paint on defense is huge. You can't undersell that.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Points Produced Formula=(FGA+0.44*FTA+TO)*(Offensive Rating)/100

https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/points-produced/


Turnovers from “fumbled passes” are USUALLY attributed to the fumbler not the passer IF THE PASS IS ACCURATE.

If you’re going to be arrogant and talk down to your betters, then PLEASE know what the hell you’re talking about.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

If a player drops a pass, or fumbles it, it wouldn't go against their win share because they're not credited with the possession. So you're incorrect on that. If they had credit for the possession then the turnover would count against them, not the passer.

If you believe otherwise then please provide the source you're using to back it up. Its not basketballonpaper either, I looked there and BB Ref and it makes zero mention of that instance.

This is a ton of garbage. Of course if I fumble an accurate pass OOB, I am credited with the turnover, hence, the possession.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This is a ton of garbage. Of course if I fumble an accurate pass OOB, I am credited with the turnover, hence, the possession.

It rarely goes that way IMO. Most of the time, when you pass it into a big man in traffic, the turnover is credited to the passer unless the big guy grabs it cleanly and then loses it. I know there's some judgement involved but it's been called that way pretty consistently from what I've seen.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is a ton of garbage. Of course if I fumble an accurate pass OOB, I am credited with the turnover, hence, the possession.

No this isn’t accurate. Every game for last 9 I’ve focused solely on this. I watch passes glance off Ayton’s hands and check the box score - and nope not credited to him. He’s had games in this streak where he had it happen 4 times (twice) and had only 1 or 2 turnovers (of I recall correctly) and in these same games he had balls ripped outta his hands at least once too. So I was surprised to see that his turnovers were so low. So you can speak in generalities but I’m literally watching just this thing the last 9 games.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No this isn’t accurate. Every game for last 9 I’ve focused solely on this. I watch passes glance off Ayton’s hands and check the box score - and nope not credited to him. He’s had games in this streak where he had it happen 4 times (twice) and had only 1 or 2 turnovers (of I recall correctly) and in these same games he had balls ripped outta his hands at least once too. So I was surprised to see that his turnovers were so low. So you can speak in generalities but I’m literally watching just this thing the last 9 games.

I've done the same thing (all season) and I've watched Paul and Booker rack up turnover after turnover especially early in the season. And that's why I'm fine with them passing to him less. If he works hard for the first pass, fine, keep passing otherwise move him down the list of preferred targets. Booker was averaging 7 turnovers a game back when he was trying feed to him regularly. Devin is good for a few ridiculous turnovers on his own most games but an extra 3 or so per game can really make you look bad.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

IF THE PASS IS INACCURATE OR THROWN POORLY THE TURNOVER IS ON THE PASSER.

jfc

 

[Hoop Head]

IF THE PASS IS INACCURATE OR THROWN POORLY THE TURNOVER IS ON THE PASSER.

jfc

True but turnovers are always credited to the last player with complete possession of the ball. So if a player fumbles a catch, even on a perfect pass, the turnover is still on the passer. its the only way to record turnovers accurately on a regular basis. Otherwise its too open to interpretation. Who decides a pass was bad or not?

 

[AzStevenCal]

IF THE PASS IS INACCURATE OR THROWN POORLY THE TURNOVER IS ON THE PASSER.

jfc

Yes, if the pass is inaccurate that's on the passer. And sometimes the guards do throw bad passes to DA. But Ayton routinely fumbles very catchable passes. Should he catch every one of them? No. But he should catch a lot more of them than he does.

 

[Cheesebeef]

IF THE PASS IS INACCURATE OR THROWN POORLY THE TURNOVER IS ON THE PASSER.

jfc

bold this next time. It might drive your point home!!!

 

[Sunburn]

Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Points Produced Formula=(FGA+0.44*FTA+TO)*(Offensive Rating)/100

https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/points-produced/


Turnovers from “fumbled passes” are USUALLY attributed to the fumbler not the passer IF THE PASS IS ACCURATE.

If you’re going to be arrogant and talk down to your betters, then PLEASE know what the hell you’re talking about.

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge."

-Stephen Hawking

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

IF THE PASS IS INACCURATE OR THROWN POORLY THE TURNOVER IS ON THE PASSER.

jfc

I think you watch no suns games if you think that’s what we are talking about. But by all means, you definitely are more persuasive IN ALL CAPS

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Yes, if the pass is inaccurate that's on the passer. And sometimes the guards do throw bad passes to DA. But Ayton routinely fumbles very catchable passes. Should he catch every one of them? No. But he should catch a lot more of them than he does.

I disagree. It’s just that your eyes betray you and every single mistake Ayton makes gets blown up because almost all fans are awful at watching basketball.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

I think you watch no suns games if you think that’s what we are talking about. But by all means, you definitely are more persuasive IN ALL CAPS

I watch enough of them to know Ayton has been a borderline all star this year. The idiots who think counting stats should determine all stars are the ones who clearly don’t watch the games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I watch enough of them to know Ayton has been a borderline all star this year. The idiots who think counting stats should determine all stars are the ones who clearly don’t watch the games.

lol... Borderline All-Star? I’d bet dollars to donuts he didn’t get even a handful of votes from the coaches or players to get him there.

14/11/1 isn’t a borderline All-Star. The 24th ranked C by per isn’t a borderline All-Star. And Borderline All-Stars aren’t continually yelled at on the court by their legit All-Star leader/PG because they’re not playing up to their potential.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I disagree. It’s just that your eyes betray you and every single mistake Ayton makes gets blown up because almost all fans are awful at watching basketball.

all fans who disagree with you are awful and idiots. Lol... did you enjoy your ban so much that you’re going for another so soon?