Defense?

[Covert Rain]

Pieces that fit into what Jagu?

Exactly. Because this system seems to prefer guys who can score and not play any "D" or at least use the defensive talents of some guys who can actually play a little "D".

No thank you.

 

[BC867]

We have more wings than Wild Wild Wings. How about moving some of these for some pieces that actually fit rather than being 4 deep at the SF position lol.

Pieces that fit into what Jagu?

The winning concept of NBA basketball. A balance team that has two Bigs, two Wings and a Point Guard on the floor . . . whether for scoring, offensive rebounding, defending, shot blocking or defensive rebounding.

The Suns 42 year old philosophy of putting your five best players on the floor, rather than your best players at each position, has led them to the shortcomings of today.

 

[mojorizen7]

Nash and this system(because they're joined at the hip,make no mistake) is NOT the answer anymore.
It'll be 2011 in 2 days.
Nash will be 37 in 2 months.
This system has been in place for 6 years and not once did it produce an NBA Finals appearance. Sure it was a relatively successful,very fun memorable era....but its over.

What is needed is a new system(which means Nash must go),new coach(with zero ties to SSOL),and new players....although IMO there are a few guys here already that could carry over.


Go ahead....flame on!

You must be registered for see images

 

[Covert Rain]

Nash and this system(because they're joined at the hip,make no mistake) is NOT the answer anymore.
It'll be 2011 in 2 days.
Nash will be 37 in 2 months.
This system has been in place for 6 years and not once did it produce an NBA Finals appearance. Sure it was a relatively successful,very fun memorable era....but its over.

What is needed is a new system(which means Nash must go),new coach(with zero ties to SSOL),and new players....although IMO there are a few guys here already that could carry over.


Go ahead....flame on!

You must be registered for see images

+1. Put simply....it's done. Nice experiment....nice run. It didn't work. You can't hang your hat on "almost".

 

[Chaplin]

Nash and this system(because they're joined at the hip,make no mistake) is NOT the answer anymore.
It'll be 2011 in 2 days.
Nash will be 37 in 2 months.
This system has been in place for 6 years and not once did it produce an NBA Finals appearance. Sure it was a relatively successful,very fun memorable era....but its over.

What is needed is a new system(which means Nash must go),new coach(with zero ties to SSOL),and new players....although IMO there are a few guys here already that could carry over.


Go ahead....flame on!

You must be registered for see images

While I agree with your overall point, there's at least one year where injuries, and not the system, allowed us to miss the Finals. In fact, if Joe Johnson hadn't been injured, I firmly believe we would have beaten the Miami Heat for the title.

 

[mojorizen7]

In fact, if Joe Johnson hadn't been injured, I firmly believe we would have beaten the Miami Heat for the title.

Yeah that was brutal.
I'm not fully convinced we'd have beaten Miami though because well,Dallas couldn't.

 

[Folster]

While I agree with your overall point, there's at least one year where injuries, and not the system, allowed us to miss the Finals. In fact, if Joe Johnson hadn't been injured, I firmly believe we would have beaten the Miami Heat for the title.

I think you got your years mixed up. Joe Johnson was injured in the 2005 playoffs against the Mavs and couldn't play against the Spurs in the WCF's until the end of the series. If we would have beaten the Spurs, we would have played the Pistons. I don't think a healthy JJ would have been a guarantee to beat either of those teams. The Spurs had our number and Detroit was tough.

That summer. JJ was traded to the Hawks and we got Raja Bell as his replacement. Raja injured his calf in the WCF's against the Mavs, who later went on to lose to the Heat.

What a shame that we only had 1 season with Nash, Amare, Marion and JJ.

 

[elindholm]

Nash and this system(because they're joined at the hip,make no mistake) is NOT the answer anymore.

Given that you just said you rarely watch games, I'm puzzled how you can make such a claim. The Suns really aren't running SSOL anymore and their "system" barely resembles what it was under D'Antoni. There's no question that they are trying to do other things; it just isn't working. It's as though you've decided that any roster that has Nash on it must automatically be incompetent defensively. There are 11 other guys (give or take) who are stinking it up just as much -- and they would be even if Nash weren't around.

 

[Chaplin]

I think you got your years mixed up. Joe Johnson was injured in the 2005 playoffs against the Mavs and couldn't play against the Spurs in the WCF's until the end of the series. If we would have beaten the Spurs, we would have played the Pistons. I don't think a healthy JJ would have been a guarantee to beat either of those teams. The Spurs had our number and Detroit was tough.

That summer. JJ was traded to the Hawks and we got Raja Bell as his replacement. Raja injured his calf in the WCF's against the Mavs, who later went on to lose to the Heat.

What a shame that we only had 1 season with Nash, Amare, Marion and JJ.

Right. My bad on that. Still, if we had Raja back we would have gone to the Finals and beaten Miami. Dallas had a monumental choke job, and I don't think that would have happened with the Suns.

 

[SunsTzu]

There are 11 other guys (give or take) who are stinking it up just as much -- and they would be even if Nash weren't around.

Only difference taking Nash off the team would make is they become nearly as bad offensively as they already are defensively.

 

[elindholm]

Only difference taking Nash off the team would make is they become nearly as bad offensively as they already are defensively.

Right. Oh, and also they might acquire another draft pick in the 20s two summers from now.

 

[Folster]

Right. My bad on that. Still, if we had Raja back we would have gone to the Finals and beaten Miami. Dallas had a monumental choke job, and I don't think that would have happened with the Suns.

Yeah, that was a dream season with Stoudemire out with MF. I'm not sure if Raja would have put us over the top against Dallas. It would have been close, but if we would have gotten passed them, we would have ran Miami out of the arena. Not even the refs could have helped Miami. Shaq was useless against SSOL... Strange that we ended up trading for him.

 

[sunsfan88]

And at some point, though the Suns' brass hasn't done the coaching staff any favors with its penny-pinching ways and sometimes-regrettable deals, coach Alvin Gentry's role in this needs to be discussed.

In the eyes of way too many people, Gentry is the guy who finally got the Suns playing defense last season, which couldn't be further from the truth. All he did was slow the team down a little offensively, in literal terms. The Suns didn't run as much, though they scored with great efficiency, and that limited the amount of points their opponents could put up. So on the surface, sure, the points allowed went down. But when you factored pace into the equation, the Suns were far, far worse under Gentry defensively than they were under Mike D'Antoni, who was roundly criticized for paying little attention to the defensive side of things when he coached the Suns from 2003-08.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ba...t=AhcLx5vXMtfFcpu2Yp77cg68vLYF?urn=nba-301852

 

[SunsTzu]

Right. Oh, and also they might acquire another draft pick in the 20s two summers from now.

Yeah I agree. May as well keep Nash unless the Suns can get a legit prospect to build around, which no one will offer because of Nash's age.

At least with Turkoglu gone the Suns are in pretty decent shape to rebuild when Nash's deal expires, assuming the CBA doesn't drastically change.

 

[mojorizen7]

Given that you just said you rarely watch games, I'm puzzled how you can make such a claim.

I've only watched a handfull of games in their entirety this season.
This is the same system that was run for the last year and a half since Gentry took over right? Nice try.

The Suns really aren't running SSOL anymore and their "system" barely resembles what it was under D'Antoni.

Wrong,its the same system...except they've decided to put more than one solid defensive player on the court at any given time. That and there's less emphasis on getting a shot off in .07 seconds.

There's no question that they are trying to do other things; it just isn't working.

What other things are they doing?

It's as though you've decided that any roster that has Nash on it must automatically be incompetent defensively.

Pretty much yeah,thats what i'm saying. 14 seasons on teams playing no defense says alot.

There are 11 other guys (give or take) who are stinking it up just as much -- and they would be even if Nash weren't around.

Yeah,this era & Nash as the core has run its course.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Personally, I'd much rather watch the Dantoni style of basketball than the Celtics style. A few bad breaks kept us from winning a championship and ushering in a return to basketball the way it was played before Chuck Daly destroyed the game. Now, however, despite the brief dalliance with finesse basketball, the league has gone the other way. If this franchise ever wants to win a championship it's going to have to start from scratch and build from the center position out. The day of the guard is once again over.

Steve

 

[mojorizen7]

Personally, I'd much rather watch the Dantoni style of basketball than the Celtics style. A few bad breaks kept us from winning a championship and ushering in a return to basketball the way it was played before Chuck Daly destroyed the game. Now, however, despite the brief dalliance with finesse basketball, the league has gone the other way. If this franchise ever wants to win a championship it's going to have to start from scratch and build from the center position out. The day of the guard is once again over.

Steve

Different strokes for different folks i guess.
I was behind the D'Antoni style when it was still fresh and hard to defend.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Different strokes for different folks i guess.
I was behind the D'Antoni style when it was still fresh and hard to defend.

If it were new today, it would be even less successful IMO. I think the top teams are playing even more physically than they were just 5 years ago. In an ideal world, I'd prefer to watch the athleticism and skill these guys possess rather than a contest decided in large part by strength and physical toughness. But, this isn't an ideal world and in the end, I'd rather watch us win. I'm gonna hate it, but we need to play more like the Bostons of the world.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Gentry is having problems teaching these guys to play defense. Larry Brown is a good defensive coach and is currently unemployed. I don't know if his deal with Charlotte allows him to go elsewhere but I'd call and offer him a consulting job for a couple of years.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

This is the same system that was run for the last year and a half since Gentry took over right?

Not really, no.

What other things are they doing?

Offensively, they're bringing more players off of screens in plays not directly involving Nash. They're making more of an effort to exploit mismatches when they get them (other than the standard Nash vs. Big after a p&r switch). They're trying to let some of the wings be more creative (Hill, Richardson before he left, Carter once or twice in his first game and likely more later). They're trying to have more players cut to the basket after Nash makes his initial pass (not as necessary before because of Stoudemire's strength as a finisher).

Those are just a few things.

Defensively, they are definitely contesting shots in the paint much more. Unfortunately, they are usually committing stupid fouls, or biting on fakes, or getting out of position and allowing second and third shots. But their attempt to contest is dramatically different from even a year ago. They are also more organized in their switches, although again, since no one can defend one-on-one worth a damn, it's not paying dividends.

 

[Covert Rain]

Not really, no.



Offensively, they're bringing more players off of screens in plays not directly involving Nash. They're making more of an effort to exploit mismatches when they get them (other than the standard Nash vs. Big after a p&r switch). They're trying to let some of the wings be more creative (Hill, Richardson before he left, Carter once or twice in his first game and likely more later). They're trying to have more players cut to the basket after Nash makes his initial pass (not as necessary before because of Stoudemire's strength as a finisher).

Those are just a few things.

Defensively, they are definitely contesting shots in the paint much more. Unfortunately, they are usually committing stupid fouls, or biting on fakes, or getting out of position and allowing second and third shots. But their attempt to contest is dramatically different from even a year ago. They are also more organized in their switches, although again, since no one can defend one-on-one worth a damn, it's not paying dividends.

I saw that for a little while but it appears this team is back to the old style again because they couldn't get consistent play. First attempt is almost always pick and roll. If that doesn't work Nash drives through the lane trying to draw defender (usually baseline) and then kicks it out to a open 3 point guy.

Rarely until I had seen Carter out there or Gortat did they try and do something similar. Still looks like the same system with a few "safety" valve plays should the first attempt fail.

 

[mojorizen7]

Offensively, they're bringing more players off of screens in plays not directly involving Nash. They're making more of an effort to exploit mismatches when they get them (other than the standard Nash vs. Big after a p&r switch). They're trying to let some of the wings be more creative (Hill, Richardson before he left, Carter once or twice in his first game and likely more later). They're trying to have more players cut to the basket after Nash makes his initial pass (not as necessary before because of Stoudemire's strength as a finisher).

Those are just a few things.

Fair enough. It still boils down to way too much jump shooting.....which has been the M.O. for years.

Defensively, they are definitely contesting shots in the paint much more.

I would agree with this. Thats what Gentry has brought to the table because thats what former GM Kerr wanted from D'Antoni.

Unfortunately, they are usually committing stupid fouls, or biting on fakes, or getting out of position and allowing second and third shots. But their attempt to contest is dramatically different from even a year ago. They are also more organized in their switches, although again, since no one can defend one-on-one worth a damn, it's not paying dividends.

All true....same piss-poor results however. Suns are STILL forced to shoot lights out and rebound by committee every night just to stay in games....this too has been the M.O. for years.

Do you think the additions of Gortat/Pietrus are going to help this team defensively and in the rebounding deptartment?

 

[sunsfan88]

We give up a lot of 2nd chance pts too. If that can be improved, our defense will already be a lot better.

But that will never happen if Gortat is the only one trying to rebound.

 

[Suns_fan69]

The general consensus seems to be that Nash is the weakest defender on the team but is that really the case?

According to http://www.82games.com/1011/1011PHO5.HTM it's not.

PG is actually our best defensive position going by a number of different stats there.

For comparison, here's what Boston looks like: http://www.82games.com/1011/1011BOS5.HTM

I know a lot of people don't put a lot of stock into advanced statistics like this but it is still interesting that perception and reality are not always the same.

 

[mojorizen7]

Some defensive and rebounding stats to ponder....

PHX Suns Points allowed per game

'10/'11 110.00(30th...last) Boston Celtics(1st)
'09/'10 105.3(26th) Charlotte Bobcats(1st)
'08/'09 107.5(27th) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'07/'08 105.0(25th) Detroit Pistons(1st)
'06/'07 102.9(23rd) S.A. Spurs(1st)
'05/'06 102.8(28th) Memphis Grizzlies(1st)
--------------------
PHX Suns (total)rebounding differential per game

'10/'11 -4.6(30th...last) Chicago Bulls(1st)
'09/'10 0.7(14th) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'08/'09 0.9(11th) Portland Trailblazers(1st)
'07/'08 -2.4(25th) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'06/'07 -2.3(24th) Utah Jazz(1st)
'05/'06 -4.1(28th) Miami Heat(1st)
---------------------
PHX Suns offensive rebounding differential per game

'10/'11 -1.9(28th) Portland Trailblazers(1st)
'09/'10 -2.1(28th) Detroit Pistons(1st)
'08/'09 -1.1(27th) Portland Trailblazers(1st)
'07/'08 -4.6(30th...last) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'06/'07 -3.3(30th...last) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'05/'06 -3.0(30th...last) Utah Jazz(1st)
-----------------------
PHX Suns steals differential per game

'10/'11 -1.2(27th) S.A. Spurs(1st)
'09/'10 -2.1(30th...last) Boston Celtics(1st)
'08/'09 -1.4(29th) Miami Heat(1st)
'07/'08 -0.8(25th) Golden State Warriors(1st)
'06/'07 -0.2(19th) Washington Wizards(1st)
'05/'06 -0.5(21st) Charlotte Bobcats(1st)
-----------------------
PHX Suns FG% allowed per game

'10/'11 49.0(30th...last) Miami Heat(1st)
'09/'10 45.2(19th) Orlando Magic(1st)
'08/'09 46.7(22nd) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'07/'08 45.6(13th) Boston Celtics(1st)
'06/'07 45.7(14th) Houston Rockets(1st)
'05/'06 45.4(16th) Chicago Bulls(1st)
------------------------
PHX Suns 3pt FG% allowed per game

'10/'11 36.2(17th) Miami Heat(1st)
'09/'10 35.5(18th) LA Lakers(1st)
'08/'09 38.3(26th) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'07/'08 35.3(7th) Boston Celtics(1st)
'06/'07 36.3(21st) Cleveland Cavaliers(1st)
'05/'06 36.3(21st) Detroit Pistons(1st)
-------------------------
PHX Suns opponents total FG attempts per game

'10/'11 85.5(29th) Portland Trailblazers(1st)
'09/'10 87.4(30th...last) Detroit Pistons(1st)
'08/'09 85.7(28th) Milwaukee Bucks(1st)
'07/'08 90.1(30th...last) Detroit Pistons(1st)
'06/'07 86.4(30th...last) Utah Jazz(1st)
'05/'06 87.1(30th...last) Utah Jazz(1st)
----------------------------------------

The PHX Suns have lead the NBA in scoring every year since the '04/'05 season...except the '07/'08 season when they finished 3rd behind the Golden State Warriors and the Denver Nuggets...respectively.