Defense?

[elindholm]

Suns are STILL forced to shoot lights out and rebound by committee every night just to stay in games....this too has been the M.O. for years.

I wouldn't have a problem with "rebounding by committee" if the Suns would actually do it.

We agree that D'Antoni instituted a culture of neglecting defense and rebounding. We agree that the Suns have suffered as a result. We agree that the culture needs to change. We agree that, whatever changes have been made so far, they haven't helped. We agree that, until the Suns get better defensively and on the boards, their only chance to win is by scoring a ton of points. We agree that, most likely, there are some within the ownership ranks who are fine with this, because it makes games "entertaining." And we agree that the current star of the team, Nash, is a poor defender and obviously not much of a rebounder.

Where we disagree is on the question of whether the changes can begin to take place while Nash is still on the roster. You believe they can't, because "Nash is the system." (You may have other reasons, but you've never given any, other than the signings of Frye and Warrick, one of whom is unfairly maligned and the other of whom is parked in Gentry's doghouse for exactly the reasons you would hope him to be.) I believe that the changes can begin to take place, and indeed that they already have, but that the progress will be slow and frustrating and so far hasn't accomplished any improvement.

Do you think the additions of Gortat/Pietrus are going to help this team defensively and in the rebounding deptartment?

I don't know. My early impression of Gortat is that he is overrated, and that if the recent quotes attributed to him are genuine, he has a rather absurdly inflated opinion of himself. (He also bragged about what a great p&r player he was going to be with Nash, but against the Sixers he fumbled one pass after another.) Pietrus has been a pleasant surprise, although frankly he didn't look good defensively two nights ago either. Given that the Suns are heavily invested in Childress and Dudley, I don't expect Pietrus to be around long anyway, which is probably too bad, because he may be the best player of the three.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't know. My early impression of Gortat is that he is overrated, and that if the recent quotes attributed to him are genuine, he has a rather absurdly inflated opinion of himself. (He also bragged about what a great p&r player he was going to be with Nash, but against the Sixers he fumbled one pass after another.) Pietrus has been a pleasant surprise, although frankly he didn't look good defensively two nights ago either. Given that the Suns are heavily invested in Childress and Dudley, I don't expect Pietrus to be around long anyway, which is probably too bad, because he may be the best player of the three.

I never had huge expectations for Gortat so it is hard to overrate him. I just thought that Lopez and Gortat could finally give the Suns a couple of players that could be considered legitimate centers and provide depth at this position. This is what intrigued me about the trade. Pietrus does seem to be the best player of the three. I do like the addition of another first round draft pick no matter how late. I really wish the Suns could figure out how to move a wing and gain some benefit.

 

[slinslin]

The funniest thing about Gortat is that fans bought the Suns media hype of Gortat and now claim he is a good defender and rebounder when he simply hasn't been so far.

His rebounding has been pathetic but still fans complain about Lopez getting 2 in 12 minutes and then complement Gortat for getting 5 in 35 minutes.

 

[jibikao]

If I remember correctly from last year, the first unit wasn't good at defense but the 2nd unit was (and playing against other weaker bench players helped too). This year neither is good.

I think the first thing to figure out is rotation. Stick to certain rotation and see what happens. You see some players playing from 20+mins to under 10mins the next game. It is hard to stay focused when rotation changes all the time.

I think this team can get better defensively but offensively it's going to be harder. We are just not drawing enough fouls.

 

[sunsfan88]

The funniest thing about Gortat is that fans bought the Suns media hype of Gortat and now claim he is a good defender and rebounder when he simply hasn't been so far.

His rebounding has been pathetic but still fans complain about Lopez getting 2 in 12 minutes and then complement Gortat for getting 5 in 35 minutes.

Like Gortat said "its hard to get rebounds when the other team puts up 120 pts so I dont get many oppurtunities to rebound"

He even said some thing last week "Now I know why Amare never got 10 rebounds a game despite having great athleticism...its because there's nothing to rebound when we play bad defense and the ball goes through the net everytime so there's nothing to rebound."

 

[sunsfan88]

I never had huge expectations for Gortat so it is hard to overrate him. I just thought that Lopez and Gortat could finally give the Suns a couple of players that could be considered legitimate centers and provide depth at this position. This is what intrigued me about the trade. Pietrus does seem to be the best player of the three. I do like the addition of another first round draft pick no matter how late. I really wish the Suns could figure out how to move a wing and gain some benefit.

I'm thinking they'll move Carter or Pietrus for a 1st rd pick since both have expiring contracts so a lot teams would want them.

 

[BC867]

Like Gortat said "its hard to get rebounds when the other team puts up 120 pts so I dont get many oppurtunities to rebound"

He even said some thing last week "Now I know why Amare never got 10 rebounds a game despite having great athleticism...its because there's nothing to rebound when we play bad defense and the ball goes through the net everytime so there's nothing to rebound."

Plus, I'll say it again, the Suns obsession with having one big man on the court when most opponents have two -- Center and Power Forward.

Where Have All The Rebounds Gone? -- When will they ever learn. Oh, when will they ever learn? , with apologies to Pete Seeger.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm thinking they'll move Carter or Pietrus for a 1st rd pick since both have expiring contracts so a lot teams would want them.

I believe Pietrus has a player option next season.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm thinking they'll move Carter or Pietrus for a 1st rd pick since both have expiring contracts so a lot teams would want them.

It'll be a lot more than a first round pick. If someone takes Carter off our hands, they'll want it for salary relief--which means they'd have to send us a player or two with bad contracts that aren't expiring. There's no reason for any team with cap room to take Vince and give up a 1st rounder. If they are able to do that, then there's no reason for them to obtain an expiring contract in the first place.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Thoughts:

If you want this to be a good defensive team, you have to get rid of Nash. Good defense starts with the pg. If the opposing pg has freedom to do whatever he wants, it makes it practically impossible to guard everyone else. One of the reasons that the Suns survived Nash's early years defensively is that they had players who could guard opposing pg's and let Nash cover the 2. He is a brilliant offensive player, maybe the best facilitator ever but. . . .

Gortat needs to shut his trap. You don't join a new team and start calling out your teammates after three games. Team leaders can do that, vets can do that, Gortat can do that after a while. But he does not know the history behind the present situation and he has not proven himself yet. Even if he had, he still needs to shut up.

I had high hopes for him, but he just plain talks too much.

 

[Kolo]

Thoughts:



Gortat needs to shut his trap. You don't join a new team and start calling out your teammates after three games. Team leaders can do that, vets can do that, Gortat can do that after a while. But he does not know the history behind the present situation and he has not proven himself yet. Even if he had, he still needs to shut up.

I had high hopes for him, but he just plain talks too much.

Well we've sucked defensively and on the boards for most of the last five years and suck even worse this year. Whatever "team leaders" we have either haven't called anybody out, or it hasn't done any good. Gortat said what needed to be said long ago.

 

[Mainstreet]

Thoughts:

If you want this to be a good defensive team, you have to get rid of Nash. Good defense starts with the pg. If the opposing pg has freedom to do whatever he wants, it makes it practically impossible to guard everyone else. One of the reasons that the Suns survived Nash's early years defensively is that they had players who could guard opposing pg's and let Nash cover the 2. He is a brilliant offensive player, maybe the best facilitator ever but. . . .

Gortat needs to shut his trap. You don't join a new team and start calling out your teammates after three games. Team leaders can do that, vets can do that, Gortat can do that after a while. But he does not know the history behind the present situation and he has not proven himself yet. Even if he had, he still needs to shut up.

I had high hopes for him, but he just plain talks too much.

So if Gortat starts tonight... no excuses.

 

[devilalum]

Playing the defense game the Suns were much better without Nash...


against the Pistons anyway.

 

[desertdawg]

We played a different scheme tonight, hopefully trying to get away from our past. We can't outscore teams any more by our rush, no huddle fast breaks. Time to man up, find a combination that suits our strengths, not our past. Friggin D up.

 

[slinslin]

Whatever defense we played against the Pistons is meaningless.

I hope nobody is delusional enough to think that the 50 point difference between the Pistons and Sixers is just due to our "new defense".

The Pistons were without Rodney Stuckey and are starting Ben Wallace who is no factor offensively. The Suns got away with playing small ball against the Pistons because the Pistons didn't have players to exploit it.

 

[desertdawg]

Whatever defense we played against the Pistons is meaningless.

I hope nobody is delusional enough to think that the 50 point difference between the Pistons and Sixers is just due to our "new defense".

The Pistons were without Rodney Stuckey and are starting Ben Wallace who is no factor offensively. The Suns got away with playing small ball against the Pistons because the Pistons didn't have players to exploit it.

So we should give up on D? Or are you gonna diss them and the other team every time we try to play D?

 

[jagu]

So we should give up on D? Or are you gonna diss them and the other team every time we try to play D?

Diss them everytime and point to meaningless point differentials. I enjoyed last night's victory.

 

[slinslin]

No but last night Gentry took small ball to new heights, it's a mirage he won't get away with playing 4 guards all the time.

 

[desertdawg]

No but last night Gentry took small ball to new heights, it's a mirage he won't get away with playing 4 guards all the time.

I hope we see all kinds of new looks, well, at least keep tinkering until we got Lopez and Gortat on at the same time. Throw in a dash of Nash and the new Toyota Prious, mixed with some old ass Grant money.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No but last night Gentry took small ball to new heights, it's a mirage he won't get away with playing 4 guards all the time.

Somebody wake me when he actually does play "4 guards all the time". I think we'd all prefer he start Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol but the last time I looked, they weren't on our roster. Sure, he could play Lopez and Gortat for 48 minutes and then when we lost by 40 points we could revel in the fact we went big.

I don't give a flying donut how tall the players are, I want to see us play better and smarter. If that means running Grant Hill at power forward then fine, at least I won't have to vomit watching the Robin Lopez chicken with his head cut off version of basketball. We're not very good but we're certainly not going to get magically better simply by using a tape measure to determine playing time.

Steve

 

[desertdawg]

I am hoping Lopez will wake up this year, or sober up, homie is moving funny out there.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Playing the defense game the Suns were much better without Nash...


against the Pistons anyway.

You cannot defend the pick and roll without staying really tight with the ballhandler. Nash is our big weakness in defending the pick and roll. Nash is our team leader and he is going to play. So we are not going to play defense like that all year--especially since it was the Pistons.

It's still an improvment.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Whatever defense we played against the Pistons is meaningless.

I hope nobody is delusional enough to think that the 50 point difference between the Pistons and Sixers is just due to our "new defense".

The Pistons were without Rodney Stuckey and are starting Ben Wallace who is no factor offensively. The Suns got away with playing small ball against the Pistons because the Pistons didn't have players to exploit it.

Its not delusional or meaningless to say that the Suns played significantly better defense last night than they had been playing.

 

[JS22]

It's not like Detroit is terrible on offense. I believe they were averaging 97 points coming into the game? Everyone is making sound like they are the worst offensive team ever. Definitely not great, but not as bad as everyone says.

The Suns looked very different defensively. There wasn't a ridiculous amount of switching and I liked the constant trap after the screens. If they could just somehow be average defensively, like last year, this team could be a sleeper going into the playoffs. (Assuming they make it there.) The 3 new guys add a totally different dimension to the team. Yes, they still lack a 4, but that didn't stop them when Diaw was playing the 4. Diaw was skilled, yes, but still very undersized.

Watching Gortat compared to Lopez - they're totally different players. Gortat has good hands, can move, and keeps the ball up after he gets it. Lopez has an awful infatuation with bringing the ball as low as possible and losing it on the dribble in the paint. Gortat seems to catch it, hold it high, and go for the easy shot. He just needs to stop following Nash so closely. Amare got pretty good at stopping in the middle of the paint and taking a step forwards the basket as soon as Nash fed him. Hopefully Gortat can learn this.

 

[Covert Rain]

Watching Gortat compared to Lopez - they're totally different players. Gortat has good hands, can move, and keeps the ball up after he gets it. Lopez has an awful infatuation with bringing the ball as low as possible and losing it on the dribble in the paint. Gortat seems to catch it, hold it high, and go for the easy shot. He just needs to stop following Nash so closely. Amare got pretty good at stopping in the middle of the paint and taking a step forwards the basket as soon as Nash fed him. Hopefully Gortat can learn this.

It's nice to see flashes of a competent center. Gortat has come as delivered. He is a decent defender and not only does he rotate well on defense but the guy as you stated has good hands.

Thoughts:

Gortat needs to shut his trap. You don't join a new team and start calling out your teammates after three games. Team leaders can do that, vets can do that, Gortat can do that after a while. But he does not know the history behind the present situation and he has not proven himself yet. Even if he had, he still needs to shut up.

I had high hopes for him, but he just plain talks too much.

COMPLETELY DISAGREE. This is EXACTLY what we need. I am all for it. This team needs an ENEMA when it comes to defense. We need a different mentality when it comes to our players. This reminds me of when the Cards starting bringing in more brash players who were not afraid to speak their mind.

Gortat might not be an established leader but he has already proven to be better then Lopez. It's a start.