Did I miss the news about Phil Dawson?

[Ronin]

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

A team can't go into a season with the mindset that's it's a lost season, for obvious reasons... attracting coaches & veteran players, getting fans to buy tickets, etc.

And yeah, Dawson was ranked 23rd in FG% last year at 80%... below average for sure. The team could've eaten his $1M dead money and brought in, oh i dunno, Cairo Santos - who was ALSO an 80% kicker last year in his FIVE attempts. Yep, he was out of the league most of the year because he has a chronic groin injury (ugh!). And there are those gnashing their teeth over letting Catanzaro go. He was 20th and made 83% of his FGs last year. Whoopee! Or i'm sure there was another veteran who might've been a little better. But what difference, really, does it make?

Maybe McCrain will turn out to be a great NFL kicker for years and the Cardinals should've hung onto him... but his 60% success rate in the Raiders game isn't enough to make me pull my hair out, and there will be plenty more just like him next year.


Now that we all know it's a lost season, what would be the point of cutting him loose?

There will be plenty more veteran kickers available, and plenty more to bring in for tryouts in the off season.

Sure it sucked to see him miss a 50-yard potential game winner last week, but in the grand scheme of things... whatever!

...dbs

dave lies

 

[daves]

dave lies

Ha! Noted... it was a 45-yarder.

...dbs

 

[juza76]

They dont cut him because they want have a shot for the first pick

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Phil Dawson gets another week after “old-fashioned miss”

Phil Dawson missed field goals of 50 and 45 yards Sunday that cost the Cardinals their first victory. So he wasn’t feeling very optimistic when coach Steve Wilks called Dawson to his office Monday.

“I’ve been living on egg shells for 21 years,” Dawson said, via Darren Urban of the team website. “Yeah, anytime you get summoned to the head coach’s office, it makes you think twice, especially coming off a game like I had.”

Dawson and Wilks had a “nice conversation and are on the same page,” Dawson said. Dawson, who missed eight field goals and three extra points last season, will get another week on the job.

Dawson’s 45-yarder against the Seahawks was wide right with 1:50 remaining. To add a loss to his misery, Dawson had to watch Sebastian Janikowski kick the 52-yard game-winner on the final play.

“It was just poor execution on my part,” Dawson said. “I wish I could say it was a snap, a hold, wind, footing, and those things can all be factors, but there was none of that. It was just a good, old-fashioned miss.”

 

[sunsfan88]

If it makes you guys feel any better, Caleb Sturgis has been terrible for the Chargers this season missing both FGs and extra points and yet the Chargers cut the holder (the punter) instead of the kicker yesterday

 

[Ronin]

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[Cheesebeef]

Now that we all know it's a lost season, what would be the point of cutting him loose?

jesus Dave... I literally answered this EXACT question in the section you quoted. So, here's my answer again:

Cutting him loose now means you can get a head start on finding someone to trust in live games for the future.

Let me ask you this... what's the point of keeping one of the worst FG kickers in the league if he's not part of the future and isn't reliable in the present?

 

[football karma]

Cutting him loose now means you can get a head start on finding someone to trust in live games for the future.

this just seems so obvious to me. Dawson wont be here next year -- and likely not in the NFL at all. So the Cards will have to find a new kicker.

Maybe new kicker is a guy with a track record.

I think its more likely that its a young guy -- and I want to know if young guy can make a 45 yard FG to win a game during a season where it wont matter much vs next year when maybe (hopefully) it does

 

[daves]

Cutting him loose now means you can get a head start on finding someone to trust in live games for the future.

Eh, i really don't think this is an issue that should get anyone's panties in a bunch.

Yep, they could try out some young kickers and start them in real games. But Dawson's salary is guaranteed, so anyone else they bring in would subtract from the remaining salary cap space, which leaves less money that can be carried over to next season. Keim could (and should!) also just bring in guys for tryouts without signing them and cutting Dawson, unless someone out there really wows them. But they'll have plenty of time all off-season and preseason to try out other kickers, without hurting the salary cap.

If Dan Bailey were still available i would've probably agreed that they should cut Dawson and sign him, if they could lock him in for a few years at a reasonable number. That would be a move to improve the team in the long term. Alas... too late for that.

Let me ask you this... what's the point of keeping one of the worst FG kickers in the league if he's not part of the future and isn't reliable in the present?

"One of the worst FG kickers in the league" - based on a sample size of 3 kicks this season? He's a career 84% FG kicker, and has been between 80 and low 90s every year for the last 11 years. He's a known commodity with a LONG track record of NOT being a choker. Sure, he's super old, so there's reason to be concerned his leg is no good any more - but he made 4/5 over 50 yards last season, and the special teams coaches (the ONLY ones on the staff who don't seem incompetent at the moment) saw him in training camp and see him in practice every day. So, it's reasonable to expect that he'll be an 80% kicker again this season. He's certainly not the weak link on the team.

Again... whatever. You have been one of the foremost advocates for losing games to secure a better draft pick, so if he continues to be as bad as you think, he'll help in that regard, he'll be gone before next season, and the better draft pick may improve the team in the long term. Of course, if he continues to miss 2/3 of his kicks, there's plenty of time left in the season to ditch him and bring in some youngsters.

Firing him immediately after this week's game would've stuck me as scapegoating. Sure, he missed a 45-yard potential game winner, but the coaches lost that game.

Oh and as for kickoffs... with a measly 10 so far, he's 19th in the league in average distance, with 40% touchbacks - the lowest percentage in the league! BUT... the Cardinals are 7th BEST in the league in yards per return, and the THIRD BEST in the league in opponent starting field position after kickoffs, so it's likely he's been coached NOT to kick the ball "through the end zone" in order to force opponents to return the ball, allowing the Cardinals' special teams to stop them at the 22 yard line, vs. the 25 for a touchback.

Anyway... bottom line - he's not the worst kicker in the league, he's far from the the best, he may blow some more games but most likely it will be with HUGE help from an inept coaching staff, and even if he does, it may be a good thing in the long run. He could be cut, but that would undeservedly deflect blame from McCoy and Wilks. They could bring in some new kickers, but they could do that anyway, any time later this season or in the offseason, and the longer they wait to cut Dawson and bring in someone else, the less cap space they waste and the more they can carry over to next season.

Or, they could cut him tomorrow so you will feel better.

...dbs

 

[football karma]

"One of the worst FG kickers in the league" - based on a sample size of 3 kicks this season? He's a career 84% FG kicker, and has been between 80 and low 90s every year for the last 11 years.

he was a bottom 7 kind of kicker in the league last year: based on his 21st rank in FG accuracy and his 29th rank in extra point accuracy -- and he is another year into his 40s.

Dawsons salary is a sunk cost. A new young kicker is coming in at league minimum -- which is paid for by keeping Bradford at third string for two games

 

[daves]

he was a bottom 7 kind of kicker in the league last year: based on his 21st rank in FG accuracy and his 29th rank in extra point accuracy -- and he is another year into his 40s.

Yep, but if you recall, it eventually came out that idiot Amos' special teams blocking scheme, which allowed rushers from the sides to get way too close to blocking the kick every single time (and to succeed in blocking kicks twice!), was a huge distraction for Dawson. Half way through the year, they finally made some adjustments to address the issue, and Dawson's kicking was fine after that.

Dawson's 2017 FG % by month:
September: 62.5%
October: 71.4%
November: 87.5%
December: 88.2% including 14/15 in the final 4 games

Dawsons salary is a sunk cost. A new young kicker is coming in at league minimum -- which is paid for by keeping Bradford at third string for two games

Nothing is "paid for" by keeping Bradford third string. Bradford is going to be kept third string regardless. Signing another kicker this year will at least cost a minimum salary, which will be one minimum salary (x 3/4 year) less available to carry over to next year's cap.

I'm sure if Dawson continues sucking - beyond a sample size of THREE KICKS - or if they bring in a prospect who looks good enough to warrant signing for the rest of the season, they'll do so, despite the cost. In that case, it will be worth it. Just saying... "FIRE DAWSON NOW" is not an issue over which to be legitimately fired up right now.

...dbs

 

[Cheesebeef]

Eh, i really don't think this is an issue that should get anyone's panties in a bunch.

Yep, they could try out some young kickers and start them in real games. But Dawson's salary is guaranteed, so anyone else they bring in would subtract from the remaining salary cap space, which leaves less money that can be carried over to next season. Keim could (and should!) also just bring in guys for tryouts without signing them and cutting Dawson, unless someone out there really wows them. But they'll have plenty of time all off-season and preseason to try out other kickers, without hurting the salary cap.

Any kicker they bring in right now will be a young minimum guy. The idea that a new kicker hurts the cap is frankly ludicrous.

If Dan Bailey were still available i would've probably agreed that they should cut Dawson and sign him, if they could lock him in for a few years at a reasonable number. That would be a move to improve the team in the long term. Alas... too late for that.



"One of the worst FG kickers in the league" - based on a sample size of 3 kicks this season? He's a career 84% FG kicker, and has been between 80 and low 90s every year for the last 11 years. He's a known commodity with a LONG track record of NOT being a choker.

You're living in the past. Right now, he's a bad kicker... period. And that's based on this season and LAST SEASON.

Sure, he's super old, so there's reason to be concerned his leg is no good any more - but he made 4/5 over 50 yards last season, and the special teams coaches (the ONLY ones on the staff who don't seem incompetent at the moment) saw him in training camp and see him in practice every day. So, it's reasonable to expect that he'll be an 80% kicker again this season. He's certainly not the weak link on the team.

Never said he was the weak link, so don't be like others here and project arguments into mine.

Again... whatever. You have been one of the foremost advocates for losing games to secure a better draft pick,

Total BS. Last year, Ouchie was leading the charge, even arguing an early OT win against San Fran was terrible for us. I argued against that and I haven't said that ONCE this season. Once Carson went down and there was nothing indicating a bright future on the team at the position, I was fine if they lost out. And THIS SEASON, what I've repeatedly said is whatever Ws we get with Josh in there are great because I want him to start building that confidence this season.

So, again, don't stoop to the level of some people on the board who put words in my mouth Dave. It's below you.

so if he continues to be as bad as you think, he'll help in that regard, he'll be gone before next season, and the better draft pick may improve the team in the long term. Of course, if he continues to miss 2/3 of his kicks, there's plenty of time left in the season to ditch him and bring in some youngsters.

Firing him immediately after this week's game would've stuck me as scapegoating. Sure, he missed a 45-yard potential game winner, but the coaches lost that game.

If he was fine last year... I'd agree with you but stop pretending that last week's game happened in a vacuum. So far with the Cardinals he's been a bad kicker... period.

I mean.. we didn't even bring anyone in to challenge him this week. You know what that says to me from the GM? It says repeated failure will be tolerated. I think that's a terrible message to send to everyone else.

Oh and as for kickoffs... with a measly 10 so far, he's 19th in the league in average distance, with 40% touchbacks - the lowest percentage in the league! BUT... the Cardinals are 7th BEST in the league in yards per return, and the THIRD BEST in the league in opponent starting field position after kickoffs, so it's likely he's been coached NOT to kick the ball "through the end zone" in order to force opponents to return the ball, allowing the Cardinals' special teams to stop them at the 22 yard line, vs. the 25 for a touchback.

Anyway... bottom line - he's not the worst kicker in the league, he's far from the the best, he may blow some more games but most likely it will be with HUGE help from an inept coaching staff, and even if he does, it may be a good thing in the long run. He could be cut, but that would undeservedly deflect blame from McCoy and Wilks. They could bring in some new kickers, but they could do that anyway, any time later this season or in the offseason, and the longer they wait to cut Dawson and bring in someone else, the less cap space they waste and the more they can carry over to next season.

Or, they could cut him tomorrow so you will feel better.

...dbs[/QUOTE]

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH DAVE.

You know what I hated most about the last game? There was a lot to hate from the kicks, to the play-calling to the defense just rolling over and dying, but what I hated most was seeing Josh lead the team all the way down the field, then watch him crouched on the sidelines watching the kick... and then hanging his head after he missed it.

More than anything this season, I want to see that kid shine AND start to lead this team to victories. I don't care about draft picks because I think when you have a franchise QB, you don't need the top pick in the draft. I just want to see that kid get even more confidence, not just in himself, but the TEAM surrounding him. I don't want to see him play well and keep seeing guys fail around him... especially guys who already failed on the team previous.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yep, but if you recall, it eventually came out that idiot Amos' special teams blocking scheme, which allowed rushers from the sides to get way too close to blocking the kick every single time (and to succeed in blocking kicks twice!), was a huge distraction for Dawson. Half way through the year, they finally made some adjustments to address the issue, and Dawson's kicking was fine after that.

Dawson's 2017 FG % by month:
September: 62.5%
October: 71.4%
November: 87.5%
December: 88.2% including 14/15 in the final 4 games


Nothing is "paid for" by keeping Bradford third string. Bradford is going to be kept third string regardless. Signing another kicker this year will at least cost a minimum salary, which will be one minimum salary (x 3/4 year) less available to carry over to next year's cap.

I'm sure if Dawson continues sucking - beyond a sample size of THREE KICKS - or if they bring in a prospect who looks good enough to warrant signing for the rest of the season, they'll do so, despite the cost. In that case, it will be worth it. Just saying... "FIRE DAWSON NOW" is not an issue over which to be legitimately fired up right now.

...dbs

You just keep acting as if last year didn't exist. And spare me the Amos... the kicker came out and said last year it was already in his head about missing kicks when he got here with our history. When your kicker is saying that crap, they're shot, IMO.

And without Amos, he's looked just as bad. i mean... the 45 harder wasn't even close.

And as far as your "they made adjustments in the second half of the season"... you could just as easily argue that once the pressure was off and the kicks were basically meaningless because we had no shot at the playoffs. We already saw that with a bad clutch kicker on this team when Rackers was absolutely NAILS for one season, where we were atrocious and wins and losses weren't riding on his kicks. Then the second they DID, suddenly, he couldn't hit a 35 game winner to save his life.

 

[Willie D]

^-- never has anyone written so much about something so irrelevant. Heck, why not just ask Luis Zendejas to lace 'em up and take a shot at the job. Maybe Garo Ypremian is available.

The team sucks. The coaching sucks. Management sucks. Might as well have a laugh over it.

 

[Shaggy]

Who really cares of keeping him or not. The team is 0-4 and I highly doubt they will be in the playoffs or end the season with a winner record. Just ride this season out with dawson and then find a new kicker in the offseason.

 

[daves]

Any kicker they bring in right now will be a young minimum guy. The idea that a new kicker hurts the cap is frankly ludicrous.

Nope, it's a simple fact. It may not hurt much, but it will hurt. You can debate whether the cost is more than offset by the value gained by having a new guy on the active roster this season, but it's not ludicrous.

You're living in the past. Right now, he's a bad kicker... period. And that's based on this season and LAST SEASON.

See above:

...if you recall, it eventually came out that idiot Amos' special teams blocking scheme, which allowed rushers from the sides to get way too close to blocking the kick every single time (and to succeed in blocking kicks twice!), was a huge distraction for Dawson. Half way through the year, they finally made some adjustments to address the issue, and Dawson's kicking was fine after that.

Dawson's 2017 FG % by month:
September: 62.5%
October: 71.4%
November: 87.5%
December: 88.2% including 14/15 in the final 4 games

Never said he was the weak link, so don't be like others here and project arguments into mine.

I never said you said that, so don't be like others here and project arguments into mine. I said, "He's certainly not the weak link on the team." How does that put words into your mouth? That's MY argument for the position that whether they keep Dawson, or fire him after two misses from 45+, makes little difference either way.

You have been one of the foremost advocates for losing games to secure a better draft pick

Total BS. Last year, Ouchie was leading the charge, even arguing an early OT win against San Fran was terrible for us. I argued against that and I haven't said that ONCE this season. Once Carson went down and there was nothing indicating a bright future on the team at the position, I was fine if they lost out. And THIS SEASON, what I've repeatedly said is whatever Ws we get with Josh in there are great because I want him to start building that confidence this season.

So, again, don't stoop to the level of some people on the board who put words in my mouth Dave. It's below you.

Blah blah blah... i believe the bolded quote FROM YOU shows that "You have been one of the foremost advocates for losing games to secure a better draft pick". Sorry if i haven't searched down every one of your posts from this season to see whether you still felt the same way.

I mean.. we didn't even bring anyone in to challenge him this week. You know what that says to me from the GM? It says repeated failure will be tolerated. I think that's a terrible message to send to everyone else.

This was the first game all season in which he even attempted a FG! Again, reference the stats above to see that his kicking was fine last year once idiot Amos finally fixed his blocking problems. Firing Dawson now sends the terrible message that after decades of above-average play, if you miss two kicks in a game you'll be cast aside.

Janikowski missed from 38 and 52 in the game... it happens. As i've said repeatedly, if Dawson continues to miss critical kicks for several more games, then yep, of course, he should be fired. But for now, there has been no "repeated failure". Dawson was an 88% kicker the last two months of last season, and has had three attempts this season.

Oh and as for kickoffs... with a measly 10 so far, he's 19th in the league in average distance, with 40% touchbacks - the lowest percentage in the league! BUT... the Cardinals are 7th BEST in the league in yards per return, and the THIRD BEST in the league in opponent starting field position after kickoffs, so it's likely he's been coached NOT to kick the ball "through the end zone" in order to force opponents to return the ball, allowing the Cardinals' special teams to stop them at the 22 yard line, vs. the 25 for a touchback.

You glossed over this part. You previously complained, "I'm sure we can find lots of people who can go 0/2 with Kickoffs that rarely reach the end zone, who are cheaper." I don't know which games you've been watching, but Dawson's kickoffs have been perfectly fine, most likely exactly what the ST coach is asking for, with the result that the Cardinals kickoff performance is one of the few bright spots on the team. Third best in the league!!

Oh and Dawson was 1/3, not 0/2.

So the basis for your outrage is almost entirely misplaced.

You know what I hated most about the last game? There was a lot to hate from the kicks, to the play-calling to the defense just rolling over and dying, but what I hated most was seeing Josh lead the team all the way down the field, then watch him crouched on the sidelines watching the kick... and then hanging his head after he missed it.

More than anything this season, I want to see that kid shine AND start to lead this team to victories. I don't care about draft picks because I think when you have a franchise QB, you don't need the top pick in the draft. I just want to see that kid get even more confidence, not just in himself, but the TEAM surrounding him. I don't want to see him play well and keep seeing guys fail around him... especially guys who already failed on the team previous.

Agree 100%! It sucked to see Dawson fail, and let the team down. Reminiscent of the Rackers miss on the Monday Night meltdown, with Leinart in Rosen's place. But just as in that game, the blame for this loss falls mostly on the coaching staff. Don't make Dawson the scapegoat when his kickoffs have been fine, his FG kicking was fine last season after the blocking was improved, and he has a 20+ year track record of NOT being a choker. Don't fire the dude after one bad game.

Or, go ahead, whatever! Won't make much difference either way!

...dbs

 

[SeattleCardinal]

He’s dead Jim.

^-- Maybe Garo Ypremian is available.

The team sucks. The coaching sucks. Management sucks. Might as well have a laugh over it.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

Actually the finest unit on our team (man for man). One horrible player

 

[Ronin]

Brought in some kickers today.

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