Did the Senior Bowl change anyone's opinion about Von Miller?

Buckybird

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Good lord, Von Miller is small. Way too small to stand up in a one-gap scheme like we run most of the time.

Dude looks to me like a 4-3 rush linebacker. 237 and doesn't seem to have the frame to add much more weight.

I totally agree K9. Some guys just can't add much more muscle to their frames & I'm thinking Miller will never get much bigger in the legs & ass.

BTW-I saw DWash at the NFL Experience yesterday here in Dallas & that kid looks like your average American. Even my friend (pukes fan) said he couldn't believe he was an NFL LB'er.
 
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Krangodnzr

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Good lord, Von Miller is small. Way too small to stand up in a one-gap scheme like we run most of the time.

Dude looks to me like a 4-3 rush linebacker. 237 and doesn't seem to have the frame to add much more weight.

Here he is against Nebraska: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkDdpgRn7Pk

Doesn't demand extra attention, constantly outrushes his position. Haven't seen him back up into coverage.

:rockon:

Totally agree. Compare him to:

Justin Houston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR0L2RVId90

Robert Quinn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNoYxbvKxXE

Both, IMO are much better overall prospects and each have shown that they can be very good passrushers.

I think Miller is a case of tunnel vision, and he's the flavor of the moment since the Senior Bowl was just played which rarely features any top prospects. Most of the best stay away so guys like Miller excel against scrubs. Not saying that guys that excel there are always sucky, but more times than most being great at the Senior Bowl is meaningless.
 
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Crazy Canuck

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I totally agree K9. Some guys just can't add much more muscle to their frames & I'm thinking Miller will never get much bigger in the legs & ass.

BTW-I saw DWash at the NFL Experience yesterday here in Dallas & that kid looks like your average American. Even my friend (pukes fan) said he couldn't believe he was an NFL LB'er.

America must have really shaped up since my last visit. The average guy I saw had his gut hanging over his belt... ;)
 

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:rockon:

Totally agree. Compare him to:

Justin Houston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR0L2RVId90

Robert Quinn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNoYxbvKxXE

Both, IMO are much better overall prospects and each have shown that they can be very good passrushers.

I think Miller is a case of tunnel vision, and he's the flavor of the moment since the Senior Bowl was just played which rarely features any top prospects. Most of the best stay away so guys like Miller excel against scrubs. Not saying that guys that excel there are always sucky, but more times than most being great at the Senior Bowl is meaningless.

The only problem with Quinn and Houston is that they have never proven the ability to play standing up. Not to say that you concerns over Miller's size aren't valid just that if Miller's only issue is size, and Quinn and Houston's issues are if they can even play the position, than I like Von Miller.
 

Crazy Canuck

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The only problem with Quinn and Houston is that they have never proven the ability to play standing up. Not to say that you concerns over Miller's size aren't valid just that if Miller's only issue is size, and Quinn and Houston's issues are if they can even play the position, than I like Von Miller.

You can't teach speed, but you can add size.
 

Buckybird

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You can't teach speed, but you can add size.

CC, I agree...to a point. Certain guys just dont ever get bulkier & at some point the frame can't get bigger. Remember Ray Thompson? He's was a thin railed guy when he arrived & while he gained some muscle and weight when he was gone, he never appeared to get big enough to take on the big bullies. I think Miller will be a much better player Ray, but IMO he will never be nothing more than a good player. We will see...
 

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The Derrick Thomas comparison is ridiculous. Von Miller is nothing like what DT was coming out of Alabama. To me, he looks a heck of a lot more like a faster O'brien Schofield.
 

Krangodnzr

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The only problem with Quinn and Houston is that they have never proven the ability to play standing up. Not to say that you concerns over Miller's size aren't valid just that if Miller's only issue is size, and Quinn and Houston's issues are if they can even play the position, than I like Von Miller.

Right on Quinn, WRONG on Houston.

Did you watch the highlight? Notice that Houston is playing standing up. And he's not just beating tackles around the edge, he's beating blocks to get to the QB, something you don't see much from Von Miller.

So no, no question that Houston can play the position since he did it and excelled at it at Georgia. Which also means he played better competition in the SEC...
 

Krangodnzr

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You can't teach speed, but you can add size.

But some guys never do get bigger, they may have maxed out their frame.

Again I will restate this to the board:

Von Miller is not the only 3-4 OLB prospect in this draft

And he doesn't even fit this team very well. We have a small DL, so we need to put a premium on not being to small at OLB.

The only smallish LB we should consider is Nate Irving, but that would be to man our SILB position. He has rare instincts, moves extremely well and is a very violent player. He had 20 something tackles for a loss and 7 sacks this past season, which is very rare for a ILB.

If we could walk away with Justin Houston in the first round and Nate Irving later, our front seven would be drastically improved.
 

football karma

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CC, I agree...to a point. Certain guys just dont ever get bulkier & at some point the frame can't get bigger. Remember Ray Thompson? He's was a thin railed guy when he arrived & while he gained some muscle and weight when he was gone, he never appeared to get big enough to take on the big bullies. I think Miller will be a much better player Ray, but IMO he will never be nothing more than a good player. We will see...

Ray Thompson played at 215 -220 in college at 6-3

I don't think it valid to compare him to a guy who is listed at 243
 

Buckybird

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If we could walk away with Justin Houston in the first round and Nate Irving later, our front seven would be drastically improved.

If we walked away with just Houston our front 7 is improved. Krang, I really believe most people haven't even seen Houston play. I like Millers rushing ability, I just don't like his total game & size. Houston brings both pass rushing & run defender skills to the plate.
 

Buckybird

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Ray Thompson played at 215 -220 in college at 6-3

I don't think it valid to compare him to a guy who is listed at 243

It's not about weight!!! It's his body frame!!! Look at the guy compared to guys he lines up against...he's small compared to other LB's & Olineman.
 

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It's not about weight!!! It's his body frame!!! Look at the guy compared to guys he lines up against...he's small compared to other LB's & Olineman.

Well sure he looks small-- if you want to compare him to 300 lb linemen or converted DEs who are 260, but let's not pretend that 240 lbs is the same as 215. It's not.
 

Buckybird

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Well sure he looks small-- if you want to compare him to 300 lb linemen or converted DEs who are 260, but let's not pretend that 240 lbs is the same as 215. It's not.

Compare him to Adrian Wilsons body type & he's small & he can't play LB.
 

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It's not about weight!!! It's his body frame!!! Look at the guy compared to guys he lines up against...he's small compared to other LB's & Olineman.

Yup. He looks average compared to Big 12 players. He'll be an interesting player to watch, but he's much more valuable to a team like the Giants, Titans, or Panthers than he would be to us.
 

Chopper0080

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Right on Quinn, WRONG on Houston.

Did you watch the highlight? Notice that Houston is playing standing up. And he's not just beating tackles around the edge, he's beating blocks to get to the QB, something you don't see much from Von Miller.

So no, no question that Houston can play the position since he did it and excelled at it at Georgia. Which also means he played better competition in the SEC...

Guilty. I knew that he played DE his Soph year, and in the limited play I saw this year I never saw him out of a 2 point stance (or at least noticed it).

I don't normally miss stuff like this, thanks for pointing it out.
 

Chopper0080

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A quick bit on Houston. From CBS, and I am going to highlight the areas that scare me.

Read and React: A work in progress. Typically asked to rush the passer in the Georgia scheme but shows moderate overall awareness dropping into coverage. Locates the ball quickly and shows good flexibility and balance to scrape and pursue.

Run Defense: Lacks the bulk to move back to defensive end on a full-time basis in the NFL. As a linebacker, has good upper-body strength and arm length to fight off blocks at the point of attack. Locates the ball quickly. Keeps blockers off his chest and shows some explosiveness in his hands to disengage. Good balance and lateral agility to keep his feet while fighting through blocks.

Pass Defense: At his best rushing upfield. Fires off the snap with an explosive burst from a three-point stance and as a stand-up pass rusher. Shows some agility to elude blockers. Good flexibility and balance to dip under the blocker's reach and the burst to plant his foot and drive toward the ballcarrier. Has a closing burst when the ball is near.

Tackling: Has good but not elite lateral agility to break down in the open field to make one-on-one tackles. Good strength for the drag-down tackle. Generates explosiveness as a hitter, bringing his hips through to launch himself into the ballcarrier. Has the awareness to attempt to knock the ball out in pursuit but had only two forced fumbles in three seasons.

Pass Rush/Blitz: His greatest strength is his explosive burst upfield. Varies his speed off the edge, showing the speed to cross the pass blocker's face and beat him around the corner, as well as the quick feet and balance to fake outside and cut back inside. Learning to use his hands, but is not as developed in this area as you might expect, considering his time as a defensive end. Relies on his burst to beat blockers, and lacks a repertoire of rush moves. A bit of a one-trick pony. Too often stymied when his speed off the edge is contained.

Intangibles: Wrestled with the decision to leave school early. Was thought to be leaning that way, but reconsidered amidst private and public "re-recruiting" by the Georgia coaches. Ultimately declared on January 15, the NFL-imposed deadline for underclassmen to enter the draft. Was suspended in May 2009 for reportedly violating university substance abuse policy.


Watched some videos, and I like what I see for the most part. Some question marks that scare me at #5, but I think I could live with him if we traded down. This just reinforces Patrick Peterson at #5 for me.
 

Krangodnzr

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What turns me on to both Houston and Quinn is that they are much better overall prospects. What I keep seeing from Von Miller proponents is that they acknowledge that he probably won't be stout against the run but will be a great pass rusher. Well that's just bull dunk, if I'm drafting someone high I want them to be good overall defenders.

IMO Quinn and Houston have much higher ceilings than Miller because they'll probably be better in all phases of the game.
 

Krangodnzr

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As far as Peterson, I think the Cardinals nearly HAVE TO draft a top pass rusher.

If we go into the season with what we have we're in trouble.
 

Chopper0080

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Yup. He looks average compared to Big 12 players. He'll be an interesting player to watch, but he's much more valuable to a team like the Giants, Titans, or Panthers than he would be to us.

Look, Clay Matthews looked tiny at USC, and looks even smaller in the NFL and he still blows it up. I am not saying that Von Miller will turn into Clay Matthews, but in regards to size they aren't that far apart.

This debate will never really end, but I just find it tough to turn down a player who has generated 27.5 sacks in the past two seasons, in a major conference, and has extensive experience playing a position of need in the defense that we run solely because of size. Clay Matthews is 250, James Harrison is 242, and Elvis Dumervil is 248. I am not saying that size is irrelevant, but I think Von Miller's success or failure in the NFL will depend on more than if he gains 10 pounds which would put him at 247.
 

Chopper0080

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What turns me on to both Houston and Quinn is that they are much better overall prospects. What I keep seeing from Von Miller proponents is that they acknowledge that he probably won't be stout against the run but will be a great pass rusher. Well that's just bull dunk, if I'm drafting someone high I want them to be good overall defenders.

IMO Quinn and Houston have much higher ceilings than Miller because they'll probably be better in all phases of the game.

I buy this argument for Houston who did show the ability to play standing up this year. However, the substance abuse violation scares me because of what I see at my job everyday.

Quinn for me is a total toss up. Yeah, I get that he looks really good, but I haven't seen him do anything that he would do in the Cardinals defense. Frankly, for a player who hasn't even played in over a year, all he has is upside because I haven't seen anything that shows me he deserves to be the 5th pick in the draft. If you have videos that show otherwise, please put up the link because I hope they are out there if we are seriously considering this guy.
 

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