Did the Senior Bowl change anyone's opinion about Von Miller?

[Duckjake]

Look, Clay Matthews looked tiny at USC, and looks even smaller in the NFL and he still blows it up. I am not saying that Von Miller will turn into Clay Matthews, but in regards to size they aren't that far apart.

This debate will never really end, but I just find it tough to turn down a player who has generated 27.5 sacks in the past two seasons, in a major conference, and has extensive experience playing a position of need in the defense that we run solely because of size. Clay Matthews is 250, James Harrison is 242, and Elvis Dumervil is 248. I am not saying that size is irrelevant, but I think Von Miller's success or failure in the NFL will depend on more than if he gains 10 pounds which would put him at 247.

The problem remains that the Cards already have a guy we are hoping can add weight to effectively play the OLB position in Scofield.

Why take Miller at 5 when you can get guys just as good in the 2nd or 3rd rounds? Or bigger guys who will likely be just as good as Miller with the 5.

For instance Acho had 23.5 sacks for Texas, 19 in the last two seasons, has experience playing LB, and is 250+ already.

Like K-9 says Miller will be a good NFL player he's just not a good fit for Arizona.

Speaking of Clay Mathews, I had no idea Green Bay's run defense gave up 4.7 yards per carry last season. That's worse than us.

Quite a change from 2009 when they only allowed 3.6ypc and we still ran for 156 against them in the playoff game.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It will be interesting what the Cardinals do.

I would be extremely happy with Patrick Peterson.

Von Miller is an option. I could care less about the guys weight since I do not think that is much of a factor. If he is around 240lbs. Then that is enough in todays NFL.

But, Peterson, IMO, is less of a risk than Miller. Our team cannot afford another sub-average 1st round pick, or another do nothing pass rusher.

Miller is quick.....against his draft class.

Oh, and as for the question starting this thread. Yes, yes it did, in a big way.

 

[football karma]

Compare him to Adrian Wilsons body type & he's small & he can't play LB.

Adrian Wilson, aside from being a safety his whole career, is 230 lbs at his maxed out, fully adult weight

Miller is 243 (and an inch shorter) with room to grow -- and he is maybe 5 lbs from being in the "acceptable" range for his position. This whole "cant play the run unless he is 260 lbs" is a bit myopic -- totally discounting athletic ability, change of direction and coordination. A 3-4 linebacker is more than a glorified 4-3 defensive end.

One of the strengths of a 3-4 defense is the ability to mix and match who is dropping into coverage and who is rushing. The evaluations of the various prospects seem to treat movement skills and the ability to get into coverage effectively as irrelevant to the position. They aren't -- and you can't assume that any converted DE the team drafts will suddenly (or even eventually) become proficient at it.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't think that Von Miller can change directions well, FK. I think he has excellent acceleration, but from the tape that I've been seeing, he frequently runs himself out of plays and doesn't have the flexibility to change direction against even average Big 12 competition.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

What turns me on to both Houston and Quinn is that they are much better overall prospects. What I keep seeing from Von Miller proponents is that they acknowledge that he probably won't be stout against the run but will be a great pass rusher. Well that's just bull dunk, if I'm drafting someone high I want them to be good overall defenders.

IMO Quinn and Houston have much higher ceilings than Miller because they'll probably be better in all phases of the game.

I doubt Quinn and Houston will ever have the coverage skills of Miller. Miller is considered the best pass rusher in the draft. Quinn and Houston are probably better run defenders. So Miller is better in two of the three. Plus, just becuase those two are bigger doesn't necessarily make them better run defenders.

 

[SuperSpck]

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FWIW, head coaches saying hello is probably an indicator of above-average interest.

also noticed a representative of the Arizona Cardinals speaking with Texas A&M OLB Von Miller and upon further inspection it was none other than their Head Coach Ken Whisenhunt. The two spoke for at least five minutes and once again this player / team combo seems like a perfect match. Could the Cardinals, who run a 3-4 scheme and really need a pass rusher, take Miller at #5 overall? There are photos of both meetings below and pay extra attention to the guy in between Whisenhunt and Miller giving me the stink-eye.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/SeniorBowl/Senior-Bowl-Blog.php

 

[Duckjake]

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FWIW, head coaches saying hello is probably an indicator of above-average interest.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/SeniorBowl/Senior-Bowl-Blog.php

Just what we need. An OLB for our 3-4 who in pads isn't even as big as our head coach.

I hate to bring this up but I have been watching some replays the last couple of days and pass rush is not our problem. It is the pass coverage. Our secondary and LBs are awful in coverage. Guys are running wide open within a second of the ball being snapped. Our guys almost never look back for the ball, bite on the smallest fake, and are horrendous in run support.

Wilson has to be the most overrated player in the NFL just no longer effective since being handcuffed by the new rules. Rashad Johnson has a long way to go just to be mediocre. That Rhodes caught everyone's fancy is a real indication of how bad the rest of the bunch were.

The other thing I noticed is that Spach is the worst TE I have ever seen. I thought maybe Spach thought he was on the US Belly Buster Diving team as often as he fell on his face. And Dray isn't any better but at least he is a rookie and has a little potential.

Right now I'd put the Cards biggest off season needs in this order:

Offensive line coach
Defensive Coordinator
Secondary Coach
CB
TE
ILB

Maybe we can trade DRC to Denver for Orton and then draft one of the top CBs.

I can live with Porter, Haggans, and Scofield for another year and Skelator at as QB as well. That crap we saw from Wilson and DRC and Toler and Rashad Johnson and our ILBs in coverage and pitiful play from our TE's and the ridiculous blocking schemes that call for a TE from the right side to pull and try to block an uncovered pass rusher on the left side while our OT blocked down on a double team with the Guard has to go.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I doubt Quinn and Houston will ever have the coverage skills of Miller. Miller is considered the best pass rusher in the draft. Quinn and Houston are probably better run defenders. So Miller is better in two of the three. Plus, just becuase those two are bigger doesn't necessarily make them better run defenders.

Where do you get that Miller is a better pass defender? He had 6 PBU and one interception which is far from stellar. Houston wasn't asked to do that much in Georgia's scheme, and Quinn wasn't either. It's hard to infer who is better when 2/3 of the players in the comparison weren't asked to do something.

Fact of the matter is that Miller is small, runs himself out of plays very frequently and as Kerouac and I have both pointed out, isn't a great fit for this defense from a size perspective. I have some reservations with us possibly going after my guy Nate Irving because he may be too small to play ILB and even he is BIGGER than Miller. And IMO it's more important to have bigger OLB's than ILB's since they set the edge so much.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Just what we need. An OLB for our 3-4 who in pads isn't even as big as our head coach.

More evidence that we shouldn't touch Miller with a 10 footpole.

Wow he's tiny.

 

[football karma]

I don't think that Von Miller can change directions well, FK. I think he has excellent acceleration, but from the tape that I've been seeing, he frequently runs himself out of plays and doesn't have the flexibility to change direction against even average Big 12 competition.

I am not going to pretend that in the games I watch, I can somehow peg a player as being anything other than-- "that guys looks pretty good" or "that guy doesn't look very good"

All I can go on is the opinions of the people whose opinion historically seems pretty good:

Mike Mayock really likes him. Nolan Nawrocki of PFW really likes him. Both say elite pass rusher.

I am more than willing to take the chance that he is less than ideal vs the run to get elite pass rusher.

The Cardinals d lacks players who force an O coordinator to account for them. Dockett might be the only one. (Wilson used to be that player -- this year he became the guy they looked to take advantage of.)

Having a guy on D who must be accounted for is really valuable.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

But some guys never do get bigger, they may have maxed out their frame.

Again I will restate this to the board:

Von Miller is not the only 3-4 OLB prospect in this draft

And he doesn't even fit this team very well. We have a small DL, so we need to put a premium on not being to small at OLB.

The only smallish LB we should consider is Nate Irving, but that would be to man our SILB position. He has rare instincts, moves extremely well and is a very violent player. He had 20 something tackles for a loss and 7 sacks this past season, which is very rare for a ILB.

If we could walk away with Justin Houston in the first round and Nate Irving later, our front seven would be drastically improved.

Our 3-4 D-line is virtually the same size a as Pitt... 300, 327, 290, and with the exception of Woodley our LB's are of comparable weight.

We understand you favour other LB candidates, but, it remains that Miller is the top rated LB in this draft, and neither you or I know whether he can put on a few pounds without losing speed. Haggans plays the run rather tough and he's ONLY 243. Until proven different I'll stick with Mike Mayoch's evaluation of Miller, and others.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Our 3-4 D-line is virtually the same size a as Pitt... 300, 327, 290, and with the exception of Woodley our LB's are of comparable weight.

We understand you favour other LB candidates, but, it remains that Miller is the top rated LB in this draft, and neither you or I know whether he can put on a few pounds without losing speed. Haggans plays the run rather tough and he's ONLY 243. Until proven different I'll stick with Mike Mayoch's evaluation of Miller, and others.

Miller is the top OLB prospect in the draft?

Last I checked every mock I've seen has Robert Quinn as the top rated OLB in the draft, even though he is a DE.

Miller is the flavor of the moment because of the Senior Bowl. Let's wait until the combine/workouts to make any real judgments.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Having a guy on D who must be accounted for is really valuable.

And he's not the only OLB that teams will have to account for.

I know if I was an offensive coordinator I would account for him....I would account for him overrunning plays all the time and would use that against the defense I was playing. I'd also rotate a TE to his side and power run for 6 yards a carry against his side.

When I watch film of Miller this is what I think, and his body of work does nothing to change my thoughts on him. He's a guy that will get sacks, but will be ran against and team's will exploit his over penetration on a weekly basis. Simeon Rice 2.0. Good teams consistently got big gains running against him when he was on the Cards. He got his stats, but largely was a poor defender other than his sacks.

 

[football karma]

He got his stats, but largely was a poor defender other than his sacks.

K

we get you arent a believer, but lets not get so emotionally invested in your point of view to start making stuff up

good grief, the guy is a two time All American and wins the Butkus Award and you are trying to tell us that other than the sacks, he just wasn't very good. C'mon.

 

[Duckjake]

K

we get you arent a believer, but lets not get so emotionally invested in your point of view to start making stuff up

good grief, the guy is a two time All American and wins the Butkus Award and you are trying to tell us that other than the sacks, he just wasn't very good. C'mon.

Miller is an aggie. That alone makes him a poor choice at #5.

 

[ajcardfan]

K

we get you arent a believer, but lets not get so emotionally invested in your point of view to start making stuff up

good grief, the guy is a two time All American and wins the Butkus Award and you are trying to tell us that other than the sacks, he just wasn't very good. C'mon.

By far his pass rush is his most special skill but, you are right, he does not suck at everything else. krang is getting too carried away with his argument.

I've seen a minimum of 6 Aggie games from kickoff to the final gun every single year Von Miller has played there. By my count, I've seen 33 complete games with him in it. For the first time in a long time, I knew I was watching an Aggie on defense who is going to be an outstanding pro. He was really the only threat on that defense that coordinators had to worry about and he still made plays.

No matter who drafts him, they are going to be very happy with him.

 

[juza76]

By far his pass rush is his most special skill but, you are right, he does not suck at everything else. krang is getting too carried away with his argument.

I've seen a minimum of 6 Aggie games from kickoff to the final gun every single year Von Miller has played there. By my count, I've seen 33 complete games with him in it. For the first time in a long time, I knew I was watching an Aggie on defense who is going to be an outstanding pro. He was really the only threat on that defense that coordinators had to worry about and he still made plays.

No matter who drafts him, they are going to be very happy with him.

dont worry they make comments on him without watching him play..they just see his measures 6.3 237..is too small he just can be a situational pass rusher .....bla bla

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Where do you get that Miller is a better pass defender? He had 6 PBU and one interception which is far from stellar. Houston wasn't asked to do that much in Georgia's scheme, and Quinn wasn't either. It's hard to infer who is better when 2/3 of the players in the comparison weren't asked to do something.

They weren't asked to cover probably for the same reasom Calais isn't asked to cover, which is they aren't that good at it. Or atleast it isn't a strength of theirs. All reports had Miller looking very good in coverage during SB week. I'm not knocking Houston, I may have been first here to tout him. I like Quinn also but he sat out a year and that can't help. I just think the team needs an explosive pass rusher and Miller is that. I don't care if that is all he's good at. Getting pressure on the QB is the best thing you can do the help a defense.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Miller is the top OLB prospect in the draft?

Last I checked every mock I've seen has Robert Quinn as the top rated OLB in the draft, even though he is a DE.

Miller is the flavor of the moment because of the Senior Bowl. Let's wait until the combine/workouts to make any real judgments.

Well, I don't consider Mike Mayoch's evaluations as "flavour of the moment", but, I'll certainly wait on the combine/workouts before final judgment, and suggest to follow your own advice.

 

[overseascardfan]

I understand that Von Miller is not the consensus #5 pick to us all but here is the deal. This offseason we need: 2 OLBS, 1 QB & 1-2 OL and not in that order. I believe we need to fill our OL needs and pass rushing needs via the draft as the OL & OLB depth this year is the best its been in years. There is not a QB in the draft that would be out Skelton as starting QB so I would rather trade for one. I hope the CBA doesn't get resolved until after the draft because I would rather trade a 2012 2nd rounder for Orton than this year because we need all of our picks. With that said unless Patrick Peterson is there I don't think he will be, Von Miller needs to be the pick barring a trade down. So here are my final offseason hopes:

Re-sign:
WR Steve Breaston
OG Duece Lutui

Extend:
WR Larry Fitzgerald

Trade:
2012 2nd rounder for QB Kyle Orton

FA:
OLB Kamerion Wimbley
CB Richard Marshall
TE Marcedes Lewis
QB Marc Bulger

Draft:
#1 - OLB Von Miller
#2 - OG John Moffitt
#3 - OT Joseph Barksdale
#4 - S Jaron Johnson
#5 - C Jake Kirkpatrick
#6 - ILB Scott Lutrus
#6 - DT Jerrell Powe