I read an interesting article about Denver. It says their philosophy is to draft young guys then play the hell out of them off the bench no matter what.
Do Suns blow it up?
- Thread starter NashDishesDimes
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Blowing up the team is not a viable option, fire the coach and maybe the GM is. From the start of the season, there was false optimism like the offense would be easy with the big-3, cheap min. players filling out the roster'd be enough, etc. Maybe. But the coach is not the right one to make the best out of even the current not to mention the worse roster at season's start.
It's perplexing to see a supposed defensive-minder HC had the defense this bad the whole season. And he roled out an offense-minded rotation plan without much rest for the stars. Vogel's stubborn with his fixation to play the names in certain situations for certain minutes, without a vision to develop bench players or to make in-game adjustment. Beal was clearly having all kinds of problems in game 4, but he replaced Okogie with Beal in the 4th despite JO was the most effective defender on Edwards. Then, Edw scored like 10 straight pts as if Beal's D non-present, and Beal committed like 4-5 TOs in the 4th and made himself and the team a favor by committing 6th foul. All our non-big-3 shooters are streaky, and it'd be wise to manage their minutes based on the day form and have more bench players ready to contribute better, maybe with better defense.
Anyway, I believe Gordon would leave, RO and JO would get a reasonable new contract to stay, I hope Young, Bol and Saben Lee get the min deal too. I think they plus Little and Roddy are very good defensive players, except maybe Bol. We need to tap into this potential going forward. Make GA the 6th man, to boost bench score and improve starters' D. See whether we get a big better than Eubanks, a PF taller than RO, and a vet PG to come here for min. And a new coach like Lou to make it work.
It's perplexing to see a supposed defensive-minder HC had the defense this bad the whole season. And he roled out an offense-minded rotation plan without much rest for the stars. Vogel's stubborn with his fixation to play the names in certain situations for certain minutes, without a vision to develop bench players or to make in-game adjustment. Beal was clearly having all kinds of problems in game 4, but he replaced Okogie with Beal in the 4th despite JO was the most effective defender on Edwards. Then, Edw scored like 10 straight pts as if Beal's D non-present, and Beal committed like 4-5 TOs in the 4th and made himself and the team a favor by committing 6th foul. All our non-big-3 shooters are streaky, and it'd be wise to manage their minutes based on the day form and have more bench players ready to contribute better, maybe with better defense.
Anyway, I believe Gordon would leave, RO and JO would get a reasonable new contract to stay, I hope Young, Bol and Saben Lee get the min deal too. I think they plus Little and Roddy are very good defensive players, except maybe Bol. We need to tap into this potential going forward. Make GA the 6th man, to boost bench score and improve starters' D. See whether we get a big better than Eubanks, a PF taller than RO, and a vet PG to come here for min. And a new coach like Lou to make it work.
Chaplin
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You win the award for most evil post of the night.
sdscard4
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Need a PG and a coach who gets our players to their strengths. Blowing it up is unnecessary and just a....I want blood...decision only. God help us if we're running out a squad that's been totally redone. Be careful what you wish for...
1982baskets
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I don't think there's any blow up scenario the Suns can do that will give us access to the draft picks they've given up in the KD trade. If you blow it up, you're likely losing a lot of games and the Nets get your draft picks.
As I've said all season, this is a good team, but not a championship level team. It doesn't have a leader, it lacks a point guard that can set the tone on both sides. All of Vogel's best teams have had that point guard. To run this plan with Vogel as coach was foolish by Jones. But, keeping CP3 wasn't a viable option either. He's in a steep decline. However, I think in terms of intangibles and winning now, CP3 likely would have made more of an impact than Bradley Beal did in this series. That's how bad Beal was this series. He had no impact on either side of the ball, yet the team is paying him the salary of 3 good players.
Ideally you find a way to turn Bradley Beal back into 3 players. But who is that dumb? Who would give you 3 MLE level players for Beal? Even if you attached a draft pick (this year's pick) on draft day, would anyone give you the depth you desperately need?
You can clearly tell the team is best off with a lineup sort of like Nurk, KD, Grayson, Booker + 1 all out defensive players that can make 3 point shots (and ideally bring the ball up). Bradley Beal was supposed to be that player but he's not that sort of player. I give him Brad credit for trying, but that's not his game.
As I've said all season, this is a good team, but not a championship level team. It doesn't have a leader, it lacks a point guard that can set the tone on both sides. All of Vogel's best teams have had that point guard. To run this plan with Vogel as coach was foolish by Jones. But, keeping CP3 wasn't a viable option either. He's in a steep decline. However, I think in terms of intangibles and winning now, CP3 likely would have made more of an impact than Bradley Beal did in this series. That's how bad Beal was this series. He had no impact on either side of the ball, yet the team is paying him the salary of 3 good players.
Ideally you find a way to turn Bradley Beal back into 3 players. But who is that dumb? Who would give you 3 MLE level players for Beal? Even if you attached a draft pick (this year's pick) on draft day, would anyone give you the depth you desperately need?
You can clearly tell the team is best off with a lineup sort of like Nurk, KD, Grayson, Booker + 1 all out defensive players that can make 3 point shots (and ideally bring the ball up). Bradley Beal was supposed to be that player but he's not that sort of player. I give him Brad credit for trying, but that's not his game.
Substitute Beal for KD and I can see that being a possibility. I'd rather play a little small with Booker and Beal at SF and SG than running it back with them as PG and SG. Boston has successfully done that with Jaylen Brown playing more SF and Tatum at PF.
I believe there's a team out there like Philadelphia or Sacramento willing to give up 2-3 players for KD, possibly some picks coming our way as well.
Disagree. Allen is better suited as the 6th man. The current team replacing Allen with Okogie would fare much better, particularly vs a team with athletic scoring threat like Edwards. Edwards alone tired our guards from Beal, Gordon to Allen, and had his way in the 2nd halves. Vogel was too stumb to see the energy issue involved and stubborn to run his old starters to the ground while young, fresh and willing legs wasted on the bench.
Larry Schweikart
Veteran
Good synopsis: 3 bigs, none of whom was big enough to win a single game in the series by themselves. I love Nurk's rebounding but the constant falls and whining about calls is counterproductive and you are right, he cannot move out on D at all. His shot-blocking is minimal. He cannot get his own jump shot from 4 feet. Eubanks is worse. There is not a single lock-down defender on the team. Akogi is as close as we come, and he can't hit a barn with a shotgun.
Worst of all, this team has zero chemistry. Nor do they seem to have a team identity. At least with Nash/Stoudamire they had the speed identity, and with CP they had solid D and a couple of guys who could take the last shot. Now, they have the best 3-point shooter in the league, yet no one seems to be able to rotate the ball to him consistently. Booker regressed badly this season. I don't know if he and KD were subliminally battling it out for leadership, but a leader takes a team on his back and wins once in a while. Maybe not every game, but one of these guys should have carried the team to at least 2 wins.
Without draft picks---and I warned against this at the time---the Suns are in big trouble. I think they have to lose 2 of the 3 big names and start over, dump Nurk and Eubanks, and rebuild with defense in mind. A very, very tall order.
Worst of all, this team has zero chemistry. Nor do they seem to have a team identity. At least with Nash/Stoudamire they had the speed identity, and with CP they had solid D and a couple of guys who could take the last shot. Now, they have the best 3-point shooter in the league, yet no one seems to be able to rotate the ball to him consistently. Booker regressed badly this season. I don't know if he and KD were subliminally battling it out for leadership, but a leader takes a team on his back and wins once in a while. Maybe not every game, but one of these guys should have carried the team to at least 2 wins.
Without draft picks---and I warned against this at the time---the Suns are in big trouble. I think they have to lose 2 of the 3 big names and start over, dump Nurk and Eubanks, and rebuild with defense in mind. A very, very tall order.
Larry Schweikart
Veteran
Yes. Good analysis. I always thought the team D with Bridges, Crowder, and a couple of the other players, even with a fairly useless Ayton, was vastly superior to this one if only because of the rotations. I don't think KD works. Beale is superior. Can't put my finger on it, but even though KD scores, and gives effort, the teams just don't win. I did not like the deal to get him at all, and always thought in the long run Bridges was a more important player (though not individually).
We need an actual leader. Someone has to be the adult IDK who that is though
Nobody is taking Beal. He’s owed 160 million over the next three years it legitimately might be the worst contract in all of sports. We are stuck with him.
KD is the odd man out. You put him on the market and get whatever you can for him, but he needs to be gone I think the team has taken on his passive attitude.
JJ has to go.
Vogel has to go. I don’t want to see them keep anyone from this coaching staff I want full turnover.
You go find the most hard nose coach you can. We need a culture change.
KD is the odd man out. You put him on the market and get whatever you can for him, but he needs to be gone I think the team has taken on his passive attitude.
JJ has to go.
Vogel has to go. I don’t want to see them keep anyone from this coaching staff I want full turnover.
You go find the most hard nose coach you can. We need a culture change.
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I wish. We need a better starting center, a better backup center, a better backup power forward, a small forward that can shoot and guard his position, an above average starting point guard and a decent backup point guard. To be fair, that becomes an almost perfect roster so it's not reasonable to expect it will happen but we need improvement at the 1, the 3 and the 5 at a bare minimum.
Omg how long with they continue to still need all those things!
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How long do you have? I'm just hoping they fix this mess before I take my last breath. If I were smart I'd refuse to take my last breath until after they fix the roster, that way I could maybe live forever.
I was hoping my dad before he passed a few years ago could see the Suns win a title. It's sad that I am contemplating now if I will. Now factor in the franchise has been around for more than 50 years. It's really depressing. However, I don't take Ishbia as a guy who is going to stand pat from season to season even if he blows it up. Hope?!
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Is there any way the Lakers would consider a Lebron for KD trade? We could promise Lebron we will draft Bronny...and he could give us 1 year on his remaining deal. We go "all in" again next year but Lebron is better fit with Beal and Booker?
Short of something like that, I say blow it up. Get back draft picks, create cap space, and hope that you are decent enough to sign another star at some point in the nearish future.
Short of something like that, I say blow it up. Get back draft picks, create cap space, and hope that you are decent enough to sign another star at some point in the nearish future.
Proximo
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Kellen Olsen just asked Gambo if he would take a deal of Wiggens, Kuminga and Pujemski for KD and Gambo said No.
I would say HELL YES if that was a real deal. That's too good to be true actually.
I would say HELL YES if that was a real deal. That's too good to be true actually.
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Is Pujemski another name for Podziemski? If so, sure, I'd jump at that deal even though Wiggins is overpaid and has 3 years left on his contract. Both Podz and Kuminga should be movable and might bring a pick or two back for us but offloading KD's contract is the biggest part of a move like this. I don't think it makes us better on the court right now but we're going to have so few options for moving KD's contract that I'd probably jump on anything of value in return.
Proximo
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We wouldn't even have to make separate deals - I am positive that those 3 guys would absolutely make our team much better than KD.
I mean it would make no sense to trade the 2 young guys for draft picks, both are already good players. I don't like Wiggins but if that is the price, it's well worth it.
If JJ and Vogel are gone, then KD wouldn't show that attitude anymore, particularly if Vogel is replaced by Lou.
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KD has shown that attitude to literally every single coach he’s gotten fired (Kenny Atkinson, Jacques Vaughn, Steve Nash, Monty Williams) or ran away from (Kerr). That’s six coaches since 2019 and when Vogel falls, that’ll be the SEVENTH coach KD will have gotten canned or left in 5 years. The attitude he’s shown Vogel is just his attitude. Nothing is ever his fault. It’s always someone else’s. That’s a feature of KD, not a bug.
Aliens? Someone would say T2 also, l like the original better myself.Empire Strikes Back, the Godfather II and Star Trek the Wrath of Kahn are calling.
nashman
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The PG could be like a co leader like Connelly is doing for the wolves! He changed that team!
