Don Banks weighs in on Warner

[MrYeahBut]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/don_banks/12/05/snap.judgments/index.html?eref=T1

It will probably add to the endless debate, but what the hey

 

[az1965]

One interesting section other than the main story...

Seem like plenty to choose from to replace CP in the off season.

By some estimates, it's going to be a double-digit year in terms of NFL head coaching changes. But if there's any silver lining to all that impending turnover, it's that teams looking for an upgrade at defensive coordinator might find an unbelievably deep buyer's market to choose from.
How so? Well, consider the potential defensive coordinator prospects if there's a bloodbath in the head coaching ranks: Wade Phillips, Romeo Crennel, Marvin Lewis, Rod Marinelli, Jim Haslett, Dick Jauron, Herman Edwards and Mike Singletary are all ex-defensive coaches who are thought to be in varying degrees of jeopardy.
And then there are the current defensive coordinators who could be free if the head coach they work for gets canned: Oakland's Rob Ryan, Philadelphia's Jim Johnson, Cincinnati's Mike Zimmer, Minnesota's Leslie Frazier, Kansas City's Gunther Cunningham, and San Diego's Ron Rivera. Throw into that group one more name: Ex-San Diego defensive coordinator Ted Cottrell, who was fired and replaced by Rivera in October.

 

[MrYeahBut]

One interesting section other than the main story...

Seem like plenty to choose from to replace CP in the off season.

Johnson or Frazier maybe, would be my choice. The others don't do much for me

 

[CtCardinals78]

Theere is an important difference between Warner and Cunningham...RC could win on the road and in the cold and win high pressure games past 35. All Warner has proven this year so far is that he can put up great fantasy numbers at home or in the wam weather against crappy teams. No thanks for starting next year.

 

[MrYeahBut]

The difference with Collins, IMO is the Titans run a much more ball control offense because of their running game. He can still throw downfield if he has to, but his exposure to interceptions and fumbles is minimized by the fact he doesn't have to throw 50 times a game. Don't really think he'd do as well under center for the Cards

 

[RolleRocks]

Theere is an important difference between Warner and Cunningham...RC could win on the road and in the cold and win high pressure games past 35. All Warner has proven this year so far is that he can put up great fantasy numbers at home or in the wam weather against crappy teams. No thanks for starting next year.

Boy, is this guy just talking out his ass.

High pressure? Randall Cunningham was 3-7 as a starter in the playoffs.

His Qb rating in the playoffs was 74.3.

He did absolutely nothing of note in the NFL after the age of 35.

His QB rating at Philly (in the cold, I guess) was 78.7, well below his numbers in the dome of Minnesota (94.2).

Everything in your post is just flat out wrong.

Let your hate go.

Face reality: Matty should hold the clipboard next year also.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

It's as if Warner is just holding us back and we have the rest of the package to be on the top. Totally disgusting.

 

[ItsInTheCards]

The difference with Collins, IMO is the Titans run a much more ball control offense because of their running game. He can still throw downfield if he has to, but his exposure to interceptions and fumbles is minimized by the fact he doesn't have to throw 50 times a game. Don't really think he'd do as well under center for the Cards

probably not very well

he's nowhere near the natural passer that Kurt is, and his mechanics leave a lot to be desired

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Neither one reminds me of a Cunningham. Kerry Collins reminds me more of a Chris Chandler, while Kurt Warner reminds me of Brett Favre. JMO

 

[CtCardinals78]

Actually RR the situation is similar. RC was great in 98 much in the way Warner is doing great this year. My problem with Warner is that judging by some of his comments I think he thinks he IS the team and tried too hard. He has not played well lately against the better teams. Yes I think this team would still go to the playffos with Leinart maybe even St. Pierre the rest of the division is that bad. I have no problems with bringing Warner back just not as a starter.

Lastly if you don't agree with what I say attack my ideas, not me. There are many posters on here with their own opinion and all should be respected. Attacking the poster and not the idea brings down the integrity of the MB.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Neither one reminds me of a Cunningham. Kerry Collins reminds me more of a Chris Chandler, while Kurt Warner reminds me of Brett Favre. JMO

IMO, the point of the article is more of ' a cautionary tale' about teams signing older players at the expense of or the detriment of younger players.

I know the current Cardinal situation is complicated by how much money Matt is scheduled to make in 2010, and that is making a lot of people nervous because no one really knows what we have. But the article points out that KW somewhat meteoric rise could just as well turn into a crash and burn situation. (mayday, mayday)

In fact, we will see just how KW performs in the playoffs this year. The same applies to Collins.

Being a Cardinal fan, I am really hoping KW does well for the remainder of the year, but I hope the front office somehow makes the right choice for the team next year. I don't know what the right choice is. I know what I would like to happen, but if, ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Actually RR the situation is similar. RC was great in 98 much in the way Warner is doing great this year. My problem with Warner is that judging by some of his comments I think he thinks he IS the team and tried too hard. He has not played well lately against the better teams. Yes I think this team would still go to the playffos with Leinart maybe even St. Pierre the rest of the division is that bad. I have no problems with bringing Warner back just not as a starter.

Lastly if you don't agree with what I say attack my ideas, not me. There are many posters on here with their own opinion and all should be respected. Attacking the poster and not the idea brings down the integrity of the MB.

What I've bolded is the parts I disagree with. Warner is trying to do too much because this defense is weak (especially against the pass) and has no running game. If he doesn't play great/excellent the Cardinals can't win. In this environment the Cardinals would probably have the same record as the 49ers currently have if ML or St. Pierre was starting and right now I think the 49ers look like they are a team that might edge the Cardinals out if they were even. Warner had 0 turnovers against the 49ers and both games were down to the end. To bring Warner back to just be backup with no good reason would just be plain silly. He's one of the best QBs out there, but is trying to do too much, because so much is being asked of him.

We do agree that ML should be starting next year (not here). Warner has had a great season and is struggling, but it hasn't mattered, the defense has been poor at best.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

IMO, the point of the article is more of ' a cautionary tale' about teams signing older players at the expense of or the detriment of younger players.

I know the current Cardinal situation is complicated by how much money Matt is scheduled to make in 2010, and that is making a lot of people nervous because no one really knows what we have. But the article points out that KW somewhat meteoric rise could just as well turn into a crash and burn situation. (mayday, mayday)

In fact, we will see just how KW performs in the playoffs this year. The same applies to Collins.

Being a Cardinal fan, I am really hoping KW does well for the remainder of the year, but I hope the front office somehow makes the right choice for the team next year. I don't know what the right choice is. I know what I would like to happen, but if, ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas

I bolded the parts I disagree with you on. I don't really care about the article. For every Cunningham there is a Favre. To go by what the teams do in the playoffs is not fair to Warner, the Titans are a much better defensive team and have a solid running game. The Cardinals probably will go one and done, but that's not Warner's fault.

 

[Mitch]

Randall Cunningham was a running QB who had a couple of solid passing years. The comparison to Warner is absurd. Warner won two MVPs a Super Bowl, a Super Bowl MVP and has passed for over 300 yards a game in over 45% of his NFL starts.

What makes Warner so valuable to the Cardinals is his innate ability to get the ball in the hands of what has become the most prolific WR trio in the NFL. We cannot underestimate this ability.

So many fans seem to focus on the negatives---Warner's turnover issues and the lack of a running game. BUT---with the current talent on offense, Warner is playing supremely well into the team's greatest strengths.

Not only has Warner developed a tremendous chemistry and rapport with Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald (without question the two most talented players on the roster), how many QBs would have been able to develop such a quick chemistry and rapport with Steve Breaston? And the same can be said about Jerheme Urban, who, talent-wise, is a marginal NFL receiver now capable of making big catches every now and then...and even had a 100+ yard game as a starter last year when Fitz was out.

Barring injury there are no reasons to suspect that Warner won't continue to play at his current level for another two or three years. He's in very good physical shape this year and his arm is as live and accurate as ever. Plus, he is the classiest and perhaps the most philanthropic player in the NFL. He remains very modest and always will. It seems he still has to prove himself every time he steps on the field, for so many have written him off in one way or another. Perhaps those few years of not playing much have also contributed to his Rennaisance...because he does not look anything like a long-in-the-tooth, rickety QB.

 

[RolleRocks]

Warner played poorly against the Giants?

It seems to me that the passing game was all the Cards had against the Giants.

Special Teams had a meltdown of historic proportions, and the Defense couldn't make a big stop.

Take away Warner, and the Giants blow us out like they did the Lambs.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Warner played poorly against the Giants?

It seems to me that the passing game was all the Cards had against the Giants.

Special Teams had a meltdown of historic proportions, and the Defense couldn't make a big stop.

Take away Warner, and the Giants blow us out like they did the Lambs.

Agree with that pretty much. With our running game MIA, there's too much pressure on Warner.

His leash did get a little shorter after the PHI game, but he's still the reason we've won seven games.

I'd give him a two or three year deal for some moderate money (five million a year). If he doesn't take it, send him packing.

 

[joeshmo]

Man did most of you completely miss the point of the article. He wasnt comparing Warners skill set to Cuningham or Collins, not even in the slightest. He is not stomping on Warners skill set or what he is doing this year Not sure where you guys got that. It is not a Warner bashing article, note even in the slightest. Read the article one more time.

He is comparing the situations, which are identical.

35+ year old QB in the last year of their deals who who are having awesome seasons. Banks is only pointing out the fact that those types of QB's have never lived up to their extensions, and there are only two 35+ year old QB's who had fantastic seasons only to get extensions that I can think of and that is Cunningham and Gannon. Neither one worked out, Warner or Collins would be the first. That is all the article is saying.

 

[joeshmo]

High pressure? Randall Cunningham was 3-7 as a starter in the playoffs.

His Qb rating in the playoffs was 74.3.

He did absolutely nothing of note in the NFL after the age of 35.

His QB rating at Philly (in the cold, I guess) was 78.7, well below his numbers in the dome of Minnesota (94.2).

Everything in your post is just flat out wrong.

The article is talking about the 98 season. Cunningham got his extension based on the resurgent 98 season. Warner would be getting a contract based on this resurgent season. That is what the article is predicated on and what CT78 is refering to, the 98 season of Cunningham. Not sure what bringing up Cunnginhams previous seasons does for the arguement considering the debate in the article is not predicated on that.

Him not doing anything after the age of 35 is exactly the cautionary tale he is trying to make. Name one QB who got a large extension or even a mid level extension over the age of 35 that has actually lived up to that extension.

I love Warner and think he should be extended without a doubt but the article has its merits without a doubt becuase Warner would be the first QB ever over the age of 35 to get an extension to have ever lived up to that extension.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I bolded the parts I disagree with you on. I don't really care about the article. For every Cunningham there is a Favre. To go by what the teams do in the playoffs is not fair to Warner, the Titans are a much better defensive team and have a solid running game. The Cardinals probably will go one and done, but that's not Warner's fault.

you say for every Cunningham, there's a Favre... as if Favres grow on trees? Favre's a sure-fire, first ballot HOF and in discussions for the greatest QB of all time.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Man did most of you completely miss the point of the article. He was comparing Warners skill set to Cuningham or Collins, not even in the slightest. He is not stomping on Warners skill set or what he is doing this year Not sure where you guys got that. It is not a Warner bashing article, note even in the slightest. Read the article one more time.

He is comparing the situations, which are identical.

35+ year old QB in the last year of their deals who who are having awesome seasons. Banks is only pointing out the fact that those types of QB's have never lived up to their extensions, and there are only two 35+ year old QB's who had fantastic seasons only to get extensions that I can think of and that is Cunningham and Gannon. Neither one worked out, Warner or Collins would be the first. That is all the article is saying.

joe, I think this just boils down to the simple fact that when you're an extremeist, it's much easier to stand your ground when projecting an extremeist or just flat out made up agenda against someone with an opinion that even slightly differs from yours.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Man did most of you completely miss the point of the article. He wasnt comparing Warners skill set to Cuningham or Collins, not even in the slightest. He is not stomping on Warners skill set or what he is doing this year Not sure where you guys got that. It is not a Warner bashing article, note even in the slightest. Read the article one more time.

He is comparing the situations, which are identical.

35+ year old QB in the last year of their deals who who are having awesome seasons. Banks is only pointing out the fact that those types of QB's have never lived up to their extensions, and there are only two 35+ year old QB's who had fantastic seasons only to get extensions that I can think of and that is Cunningham and Gannon. Neither one worked out, Warner or Collins would be the first. That is all the article is saying.

Exactly, Joe. I didn't think Banks was bashing Warner or Collins, just maybe suggesting that history may have a way of repeating itself and both clubs would be wise to completely review their options at qb before they decide into which basket their eggs will go.

 

[moklerman]

Cunningham doesn't seem like a very good example. Not just to Warner but to anyone. He played very little (121 ATT) in '95, was selling kitchen cabinets in Las Vegas in '96 and in '97 had even fewer pass attempts (88) than he did in '95. Randy Moss shows up in '98 and RC starts throwing jump balls that only Moss can catch and he has a good year.

But it shouldn't have been a secret that without the threat of him running, Cunningham was a pedestrian passer. The Moss/Carter combo was the real catalyst for that offense. Jeff George replaced Cunningham in '99 and has a monster year. Rookie Culpepper comes in '00 and has a monster year. In '01, Cris Carter is 36 and out of gas and the passing game starts to slip. In '02, Carter retires and defenses don't have reason to fear Dwane Bates. Culpepper's number suffer greatly.

Now, if the writer had made a correlation between the dominant receiver corps that each team has/had, then it would be a place to start a comparison. Perhaps that is an even better argument in favor of rolling the dice with Leinart. Maybe be can replicate the Cunningham, George, Culpepper patter of any decent QB succeeding with a prolific receiving corps.

Warner has played his best ball in years and at 36 and 37 has rekindled the numbers he was putting up at 28-30. A one year spike by a career 80 rating QB that had excelled due to his running ability is far different that what Warner is doing. Since '04 when he's had any significant playing time he's been at 85 or higher in rating. Consistantly.

This isn't to say that there isn't a risk in signing a 38 year old QB just that the comparison is very weak.

Statistically speaking, Elway had 3 of his best seasons at 36, 37 & 38. Brett Favre, Doug Flutie, Rich Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Joe Montana, Warren Moon, Jim Plunkett, Phil Simms, Dan Marino & Steve Young are all guys who were good enough to stick around long enough(and contemporary enough for comparison) to be viable at 35+. From what I could tell, the good at that age outweigh the bad by a decent margin.

Desire and health are the key factors and guys like Garcia and Warner seem to have both and are both key contributors to their team's success. Just because Cunningham had a good year at a late age doesn't mean the years and years of poor play previous to that year are meaningless. He hadn't played well for a long time and had a miracle season. He didn't just fall off the map because he turned 36. He went back to how he was playing before Randy Moss caught the league by surprise.

 

[Stout]

Neither one reminds me of a Cunningham. Kerry Collins reminds me more of a Chris Chandler, while Kurt Warner reminds me of Brett Favre. JMO

Yep, folks, we've lost him...he's gone over the deep end

Seriously, dude, that's just crazy talk. I hate Farva, but he's still had way better of a career and has been a far better QB than Warner.

 

[cardpa]

What we need to remember is Matt lost the starting Job because of that terrible one quarter he had in preseason. He had played well otherwise.

What we also have to remember is Kurt had just as bad a quarter against the Jets in the regular season.

Any QB can have a terrible quarter in a game. I personally would prefer to see Matt start next year. I just don't think Kurt is going to have a repeat of this year next year. I am not even sure if he is going to even finish the year strong.

It's that old gut feeling that we have seen the best of Kurt and the sledding is all downhill from here.

 

[moklerman]

Seriously, dude, that's just crazy talk. I hate Farva, but he's still had way better of a career and has been a far better QB than Warner.

Far more durable to be sure. Beneficiary of far more well rounded teams. Both have been on 3 different teams, both have won 1/lost 1 in the Super Bowl and both have multiple MVP's. Favre hasn't passed for as many TD's in a season. Favre's never eclipsed 100 rating for a season. Favre is one of the few guys who can be compared to Warner in fumbles. Warner's never led the league in most interceptions and Favre is on pace for his 3rd time. Their TD% is the same(5.1), Warner's INT% is lower(3.1>3.2), Warner's completion pct. is higher (65.5>61.7), Warner's YPA is much higher (8.1>7.0) and his YPG is higher (261.8>239.3).

No one compares to Favre in longevity but Warner stacks up pretty well in all other categories. At least well enough that this comparison isn't "crazy".