Don't Trade JJ

[Chaplin]

In any case, neither is likely to be a Suns next season.

You forgot the "IMO".

 

[Chaplin]

That's why I don't want the Suns to mortgage the farm for him.

Boy, you really love Shawn Marion, don't you? Right now, at best, Marion is our #2 player. I don't consider trading our 2nd option for an automatic first option "mortgaging the farm".

Marion is a fine player, and when he's on, he's terrific, but McGrady is in a whole other category.

 

[Mainstreet]

You missed the most important difference between Kobe and T-Mac. Kobe has proven the ability to produce in championship games. Know one knows if T-Mac is the kind of star that wilts when the pressure is on or thrives. With Kobe we know.

That's precisely the point I'm trying to make. That's why I do not want the Suns to mortgage the farm to get him.

Also I viewed Kobe early on talent wise (even before the Lakers even won a championship) possibly the closest thing to a Michael Jordan clone. T-Mac is a very, very talented player but I do not view him in the same light.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Chaplin]

That's precisely the point I'm trying to make. That's why I do not want the Suns to mortgage the farm to get him.

Also I viewed Kobe early on talent wise (even before the Lakers even won a championship) possibly the closest thing to a Michael Jordan clone. T-Mac is a very, very talented player but I do not view him in the same light.

Let's agree to disagree.

What do you consider "the farm"?

To me, the farm is Amare, JJ and Marion, and perhaps our 1st rounder (and Lampe if you want to get technical). But just Marion and the pick is not mortgaging the farm.

 

[George O'Brien]

Boy, you really love Shawn Marion, don't you? Right now, at best, Marion is our #2 player. I don't consider trading our 2nd option for an automatic first option "mortgaging the farm".

Marion is a fine player, and when he's on, he's terrific, but McGrady is in a whole other category.

It's nice to haer from a really strong Shawn Marion fan, but I agree that T-Mac is more valuable than Marion. My concern is that the Suns don't have enough extra to offer to make up for the difference without strip mining the team.

 

[Chaplin]

It's nice to haer from a really strong Shawn Marion fan, but I agree that T-Mac is more valuable than Marion. My concern is that the Suns don't have enough extra to offer to make up for the difference without strip mining the team.

We're not going to give them a ton of players. It would be Marion, maybe our first and another player like Casey. Would you really miss Casey if he were thrown in? I know I probably wouldn't.

I think you guys are totally going overboard with this whole giving-away-the-team thing. That ain't going to happen.

 

[Mainstreet]

"Boy, you really love Shawn Marion, don't you? Right now, at best, Marion is our #2 player. I don't consider trading our 2nd option for an automatic first option "mortgaging the farm".

Yes, I'm not conviced Tracy is that much better.

 

[Chaplin]

Yes, I'm not conviced Tracy is that much better.

I'd like to know your reasons for this.

 

[George O'Brien]

Shawn Marion
Phoenix Suns
Position: F
Height: 6-7 Weight: 215
College: UNLV '00
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 19.0
RPG 9.3
APG 2.7
SPG 2.11
BPG 1.32
FG% .440
FT% .851
3P% .340
MPG 40.7

Tracy McGrady
Orlando Magic
Position: G
Height: 6-8 Weight: 210
High School: Mount Zion Christian Acad. HS
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 28.0
RPG 6.0
APG 5.5
SPG 1.39
BPG .63
FG% .417
FT% .796
3P% .339
MPG 39.9

T-Mac's shooting percentage is down, but he has a career average of 44.7%.

BTW, his last year in Toronto (his third season) T-Mac averaged 15.4 ppg on 45.1% shooting in . That is similar to that of Joe Johnson in the second half of his third season.

 

[Chaplin]

Did TMac go through huge chunks of the season of being totally ineffective? I don't think he did.

Shawn Marion, however, that's another story.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd like to know your reasons for this.

Understand, I'm only sharing my opinion. I'm not trying to change your view.

I think I've said this before, Kobe has the eye of a tiger when the game is on the line and can absolutely dominate a game if he so chooses.

I see the great player and scorer in Tracy but I do not see this killer instinct.

I'm willing to concede, I could be wrong, but then again, I could be right. If I choose to make this trade, it would have to be straight up and I would have to be sure about Tracy's back.

I would rather add to our core players unless you can get me a Kevin Garnett or a Tim Duncan.

 

[George O'Brien]

Did TMac go through huge chunks of the season of being totally ineffective? I don't think he did.

Shawn Marion, however, that's another story.

Shawn was not totally ineffective. He just wasn't shooting well.

I think his decision to spend last summer in the weight room rather than working on his game really hurt Shawn at the start of the season. This shouldn't be a problem this year as he will be working out in Athens.

Don't get me wrong. I would trade Marion and pick and some backup players for T-Mac. But I would not include Amare, JJ, and Lampe. I'm not inclined to include Vujanic or Barbosa since I think they have a lot of potential.

What's left? Jacobsen, Voskuhl, and Carbakapa are not going to be terribly interesting to them. You could give White for Howard, but I hate the idea of having Howard for that long.

 

[Joe Mama]

I find it funny that there are several people who keeps saying that Kobe Bryant is a proven winner who knows how to win a championship, and Tracy McGrady wilts under pressure. Wakeup people! Tracy McGrady would be doing the same thing as Kobe Bryant if he was playing on that Lakers team. I seriously doubt the Orlando Magic with Kobe Bryant would have fared much better than they did with McGrady. There's just no way you can compare the two fairly.

I won't even get into the Shawn Marion versus Tracy McGrady comparisons. Frankly I think it's silly because McGrady is a superstar capable of creating his own shot and shots for others, even against double teams. Shawn Marion has decent offensive skills, and he's a great rebounder.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Shawn Marion also has been totally ineffective during the playoffs.

Also when you compare JJ's stats to anyone you have to take into account that JJ is among the league leaders in mpg.

I would rather trade JJ for a superstar than Marion because I would be afraid that JJ could be ineffective again if we traded for a TMac or signed Kobe.

JJ was already having worse games when Amare came back.

 

[sly fly]

I'm so damn sick of seeing Shawn Marion's stats.

INFLATED.

My book on Marion:

- Quick jumper
- Below-average court vision.
- Avoids contact on the finish.
- Tireless defender.
- Will bite on the pump fake.
- Overplays a bit weak side D. Susceptible to backdoor.
- Likes the corner 3. Pretty effective.
- Too inconsistant from the 3 spots to be considered a threat.
- Above-average FT.
- Does not get to the line enough.
- Likes the angle with the ball in his hands.
- Avoids dribbling to the hole. Would rather pull up from 10-15.
- Scorer, not a shooter.

Solid, complimentary player. Expected a bit more development after his first 3 seasons. Seems to have taken a step back. Players better when the expectations aren't so high. Great addition to the Olympic team.

 

[elindholm]

Wakeup people! Tracy McGrady would be doing the same thing as Kobe Bryant if he was playing on that Lakers team.

Maybe, maybe not. You make it sound like O'Neal is an unstoppable force and Bryant just comes along for the ride. The Lakers, particularly this year, have needed Bryant to play his best. Could McGrady match that? Possibly, but it's hardly a foregone conclusion.

 

[fordronken]

Call me crazy, but I think that T-Mac would be more like the guy who kicks ass the whole game, but in a couple of years, it would be Amare who takes over down the stretch and is The Man who closes out the game and steps on the other team's throat.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm so damn sick of seeing Shawn Marion's stats.

INFLATED.

My book on Marion:

- Quick jumper
- Below-average court vision.
- Avoids contact on the finish.
- Tireless defender.
- Will bite on the pump fake.
- Overplays a bit weak side D. Susceptible to backdoor.
- Likes the corner 3. Pretty effective.
- Too inconsistant from the 3 spots to be considered a threat.
- Above-average FT.
- Does not get to the line enough.
- Likes the angle with the ball in his hands.
- Avoids dribbling to the hole. Would rather pull up from 10-15.
- Scorer, not a shooter.

Solid, complimentary player. Expected a bit more development after his first 3 seasons. Seems to have taken a step back. Players better when the expectations aren't so high. Great addition to the Olympic team.

Statisically this season on offense was a drop off for Marion because he could not hit his outside shots at the start of the season. There is a recurring claim that he can't make his own shot, but that's not true. He just couldn't hit them.

In any case, the reason people doubt he can become a primary offense player has more to do with the mechanics of his shot which is too low. That is why his long range shooting is better suited to catch and shoot. In 2001-02 he hit 39.3% for 3 and in 2002-03 he hit 38.7% for 3. Not outstanding, but credible enough that opponents had to guard him which made it possible for him to get by them and go to the basket. For the first 1/2 of this past season he was hitting well under 30%, so opponents dared him to shoot.

Shawn's outside shooting picked up quite a bit late in the season. He finished the year shooting 34% for three which meant he had to shoot over 40% to make up for his dismal early shooting. If he shoots that way next season, he will average over 20 ppg - not bad for the team's third option.

I anticipate that D'Antoni will make major changes in the Suns offense over the summer. I don't think the pick and roll will go away, but I think there will be more motion off the ball, back door plays, and shooting from the high post. There should be more concentration on getting Shawn the ball while on the move and even a few alley oop passes.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Better than Barkley

Yes.

 

[Errntknght]

George, "I anticipate that D'Antoni will make major changes in the Suns offense over the summer. I don't think the pick and roll will go away, but I think there will be more motion off the ball, back door plays, and shooting from the high post. There should be more concentration on getting Shawn the ball while on the move and even a few alley oop passes."

Those are hardly major changes... in fact, none of them couldn't have been made easily while the season was in progress. It's possible coach Mikey will surprise us and institute a different offense - he has lots of reasonable options. He could install a low post offense with Amare being a ball distributor; he could go high post with Lampe high and Amare low; or he could combine the two, which may be the best long term plan. People keep talking about a motion offense but a classic motion doesn't fit well with having three guys that are so effective scoring solo. I don't mean to imply that an offense that relies on primarily on solo play will carry a team far but you don't want to toss it out unless you get more than you give up. I imagine someone who knew the motion inside and out might be able to bring it off with this team but our coaching staff has no one who fits that description.

Now borrowing some ideas from the MO would be good - I'm thinking of heavy use of off-ball screens, which the Suns almost entirely abandoned the last few years. Player movement just to be moving is okay but if they are moving to set screens and come off them then you are getting somewhere. Coordinate that with ball movement and you have team offense... a novel concept here in Phoenix.

Well, back to reality. Marion is the pivotal guy as I see it - as long as he hangs out on the perimeter this team will never amount to much. I don't think he'll change voluntarily and there's no evidence that the coach thinks that way so I hope they trade him and get a 3 that plays like a 3. I'd rather trade the coach but we're stuck with D'
for a couple of years, so I'll hope for something that might happen and would force his hand.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, back to reality. Marion is the pivotal guy as I see it - as long as he hangs out on the perimeter this team will never amount to much. I don't think he'll change voluntarily and there's no evidence that the coach thinks that way so I hope they trade him and get a 3 that plays like a 3. I'd rather trade the coach but we're stuck with D'
for a couple of years, so I'll hope for something that might happen and would force his hand.

I won't get into your tired arguement about D'Antoni's coaching, but as for Shawn Marion, though, the fact that he hangs out at the perimeter is a crystal clear reason why he can't create his own shot. The only time he DOES create his own shot is when he drives, and let's face it, those shots are very quick, thanks in part to his speed, but also because he just throws them up there. How often is Shawn Marion double-teamed? How often does he go down into the low post?

Tracy McGrady, however, scores 28 points per game against constant double- and something TRIPLE-teams. And yet he STILL scores. Creating your own shot can undoubtedly lead to selfishness, as we have seen with Kobe from time-to-time, but it also leads to wins, which is what all this talking is all about, right?

Unfortunately, there are some that don't care about wins, and just would like to see this group "develop". Sure it'd be nice to see our young guys mature and find out if they are any good, but many people have lost sight of the ultimate goal: To win an NBA championship.

And Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant would put us much closer to that reality. That's just a fact, one that I'm all for attaining at this point, even if it means sacrificing a solid complimentary player like Shawn Marion.

 

[George O'Brien]

I won't get into your tired arguement about D'Antoni's coaching, but as for Shawn Marion, though, the fact that he hangs out at the perimeter is a crystal clear reason why he can't create his own shot. The only time he DOES create his own shot is when he drives, and let's face it, those shots are very quick, thanks in part to his speed, but also because he just throws them up there. How often is Shawn Marion double-teamed? How often does he go down into the low post?

Tracy McGrady, however, scores 28 points per game against constant double- and something TRIPLE-teams. And yet he STILL scores. Creating your own shot can undoubtedly lead to selfishness, as we have seen with Kobe from time-to-time, but it also leads to wins, which is what all this talking is all about, right?

Unfortunately, there are some that don't care about wins, and just would like to see this group "develop". Sure it'd be nice to see our young guys mature and find out if they are any good, but many people have lost sight of the ultimate goal: To win an NBA championship.

And Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant would put us much closer to that reality. That's just a fact, one that I'm all for attaining at this point, even if it means sacrificing a solid complimentary player like Shawn Marion.

I have no problem with that. IMHO, the issue with McGrady is that I don't think Marion, a pick, and a backup like Voskuhl will get it done. If I'm wrong, I promise to buy a T-Mac Suns jersey.

BTW, the question of including JJ is not one of should. The Suns simply won't.

 

[elindholm]

BTW, the question of including JJ is not one of should. The Suns simply won't.

That could well be. But if, hypothetically, the Magic were so high on Johnson that they'd include a Howard/Eisley swap -- in other words, McGrady/Howard for Marion/Johnson/Eisley/pick/whatever -- I sure hope the Suns would consider it. Howard's contract goes on forever, but it's fairly affordable and he has been a reliable, solid player throughout his career.

 

[Chaplin]

BTW, the question of including JJ is not one of should. The Suns simply won't.

That could well be. But if, hypothetically, the Magic were so high on Johnson that they'd include a Howard/Eisley swap -- in other words, McGrady/Howard for Marion/Johnson/Eisley/pick/whatever -- I sure hope the Suns would consider it. Howard's contract goes on forever, but it's fairly affordable and he has been a reliable, solid player throughout his career.

I agree 100% with you Eric. I haven't broken down the numbers, but interestingly enough, that makes the possibility of acquiring Kobe Bryant as well a much bigger reality, especially with no Marion or JJ--and because we are rid of Eisley's contract.

We've got 5 days till the lottery, hopefully at least by then SOMETHING will be cleared up, even if it's just which pick we're going to get.

 

[elindholm]

I agree 100% with you Eric.

WOOHOO!

And just to be fair, I agree 100% with you, too.