Don't Trade JJ

[Chaplin]

I agree 100% with you Eric.

WOOHOO!

And just to be fair, I agree 100% with you, too.

Must be a cold day in Hell... err... Tucson.

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin, >>I won't get into your tired arguement about D'Antoni's coaching,<<

I wouldn't expect you to but I sure wish somebody would. I'd love to learn exactly what he's done with the team offense that is so great. For example someone could explain why the offense doesn't need off-ball screens or, perhaps, my observation is wrong and then that someone could point out the ways dozens of them are used every game.

I wouldn't expect that of you since you seem to only be concerned with players creating their own shot. Given that as the principal criterion for the value of a player I can understand why you like D'Antoni - he's not going mess things up for the solo artists with something as dull as team play.

>>as for Shawn Marion, ..... How often does he go down into the low post?<<

Just what I was saying... don't you see this as a failing of the coach as much as the player?

>>Unfortunately, there are some that don't care about wins, and just would like to see this group "develop". Sure it'd be nice to see our young guys mature and find out if they are any good, but many people have lost sight of the ultimate goal: To win an NBA championship.<<

You trot this out almost every time you reply to a post of mine. I guess that means you don't think I have a clue of what it takes to win the title. Since I primarily post about the quality of the Suns' team play, I have to assume you don't see that as an important part of winning the title. Players that are great at creating their own shot have been on many champions, of course, but I've never seen a team win it all without first rate team play on both ends of the floor.

>>And Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant would put us much closer to that reality. That's just a fact, one that I'm all for attaining at this point, even if it means sacrificing a solid complimentary player like Shawn Marion.<<

It's an opinion not a fact, even though you repeat it ad nauseam. I agree signing Kobe as a FA or getting Tracy in a favorable trade would most likely improve the team but it's my opinion that if we don't get a coach who can greatly improve the team play at both ends of the floor we will never be a contender for the title. If we signed Kobe, for example, I'm afraid it would extend coach Mikey's tenure, narrowing our window of opportunity.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

First off, when D'Antoni became coach, his first thoughts were abotu getting Marion to the line more. He said it is always talked about at length, however he is the player he is, and sometimes you just can't change that.

Also, I disagree with the notion a coach needs to be a good X and O guy to take his team to a title. I mean arguably the best X and O guy in the league doesn't even have a ring (Brown).

The coach who will most likely have the most rings all time couldn't grasp the fact the triangle almost got them swept in the 2nd round. Also, it took a 2-0 lead, and some hurt ego's to get the Laker to play defense.

IMO, if the coach creates a winning atmosphere, where the players enjoy themselves and work together, that is much more important that offensive strategy. I know you hate the offense, but it isn't like it ever bogged down. The Suns were scoring in the high 90s and low 100s for most of the 2nd half. Unfortunately, so were their opponents.

To win a championship, you need a star player, depth and chemestry. Just my 2 cents.

 

[George O'Brien]

I have always heard that it is extremely difficult to change offensive systems in the middle of a season. I would guess it is harder to do when coaching young players, but it hard when there aren't many practices and they are spent just trying to get people to run the old system.

I would expect some major changes over the summer, although the nature of those changes will depend a lot on what happens on the personnel front. Running double screens for guys who can't hit open jump shots is as a waste of time.

It's odd that the Suns somehow managed to average 94.2 ppg and 44.3% shooting in spite of their offensive woes.

Denver made the playoffs and they averaged the same shooting percentage. Memphis averaged 44.5% and Houston 44.2%. The Spurs averaged 44.2% shooting.

The Lakers, Kings, and Mavericks shot a lot better than the Suns, but the Suns shot as well as the rest of the Western playoff teams. Their failure was not primarily on offense, it was defense. If D'Antoni gets canned, it will not be due to X's and O's - but points against.

 

[Errntknght]

grahamcrakr >>First off, when D'Antoni became coach, his first thoughts were abotu getting Marion to the line more. He said it is always talked about at length, however he is the player he is, and sometimes you just can't change that.<<

That shows you what a poor coach he is, he's asking the wrong thing of Marion. I've talked about Shawn at length on here and while I often wish he were the type SF who drives through traffic to the rim, I don't advocate trying to turn him into something he's not. I talk about where he plays on the floor as opposed to where he should play to be more effective - the baseline and active, in case you've never noticed. I've also suggested he could set a screen now and then. A coach can reasonably demand that much of a player.

>>Also, I disagree with the notion a coach needs to be a good X and O guy to take his team to a title. I mean arguably the best X and O guy in the league doesn't even have a ring (Brown).

IMO, if the coach creates a winning atmosphere, where the players enjoy themselves and work together, that is much more important that offensive strategy.<<

I remember you took me to task with the same sort of remarks when FJ was at the helm and I ripped him for his X's and O's, giving quite detailed reasons as always. The team was just finishing a successful road trip in December (FJs first full year) and FJ was riding a crest of popularity even on here. You (and most everyone else) thought I was full of $hit then just like you do now but then I haven't changed either - I value your remarks now precisely as much I did then.


George O' >>I have always heard that it is extremely difficult to change offensive systems in the middle of a season. I would guess it is harder to do when coaching young players, but it hard when there aren't many practices and they are spent just trying to get people to run the old system.<<

I guess this is directed at me even though I have specifically avoided criticizing D'A for not changing the offensive system and stuck to particular failings which are not system specific.

>>I would expect some major changes over the summer, although the nature of those changes will depend a lot on what happens on the personnel front. Running double screens for guys who can't hit open jump shots is as a waste of time.<<

I hoping for some major changes but I don't expect them. Running double screens for players is a waste of time only if they shoot as well without them as with them - and that's not true of the Suns shooters. Besides it's of value to make the opponents work hard on defense.

>>It's odd that the Suns somehow managed to average 94.2 ppg and 44.3% shooting in spite of their offensive woes.
Denver made the playoffs and they averaged the same shooting percentage. Memphis averaged 44.5% and Houston 44.2%. The Spurs averaged 44.2% shooting.<<

Orlando scored 94 points a game. So what is your point? Heck, Sac averaged over 102 points a game but they died in the playoffs because of their offense. They slacked off on their nice high post game this year and focussed on plays to spring Peja loose for his bombs. As usual in the playoffs, tighter defense and more pressure took it's high toll on long range shots.

>>Their failure was not primarily on offense, it was defense. If D'Antoni gets canned, it will not be due to X's and O's - but points against.<<

When coach Mikey gets canned it will be due to the bottom line - not enough wins in the regular season or fast exits from the playoffs. You will claim it was because of the defense and I'll say it was the offense and the defense together.

 

[TigToad]

It's really a shame that it a Shawn Marion and not Joe Johnson that would have to be included in a deal for Tracy McGrady.

In other words I would much rather have a trio of Amare Stoudemire, Tracy McGrady, and Shawn Marion than Amare Stoudemire , Tracy McGrady, and JJ. Unfortunately Shawn Marion would have to be part of the deal for Tracy McGrady.

Joe Mama

I couldn't agree with you more. Every time I log into this forum, I am blown away by the Marion hate. The guy is on the Olympic team because he's an amazing talent. The Suns have a lot of talent, what we lack is depth. We are not a McGrady away from being a very good team... I'm not going to turn up my nose at McGrady, he's one of the top 3 or 4 players in the league, but I don't think we need him to win. I'd like us to keep our great players and use our cap space to sign 1 or 2 more very good players. We need to be rock solid at 4 positions to compete in the West, we are solid at 2 or 3.

 

[George O'Brien]

I couldn't agree with you more. Every time I log into this forum, I am blown away by the Marion hate. The guy is on the Olympic team because he's an amazing talent. The Suns have a lot of talent, what we lack is depth. We are not a McGrady away from being a very good team... I'm not going to turn up my nose at McGrady, he's one of the top 3 or 4 players in the league, but I don't think we need him to win. I'd like us to keep our great players and use our cap space to sign 1 or 2 more very good players. We need to be rock solid at 4 positions to compete in the West, we are solid at 2 or 3.

The "Let's Trade Marion" fan club started the day he signed the contract. It comes down to a core belief that no player should get a max contract unless he is either a dominant big man or a first option offensive player.

 

[PhxGametime]

I'm most likely biggest Shawn Marion fan here and I usually post about Draft or player performance - not as smart as the rest of members on board to talk about much else other than that but if McGrady could come to Suns for a decent price, it could really help team (Suns come first). Although I too believe adding Vujanic (this year or next), Lottery Pick, and Free Agent - would help team as well. I've been a fan of Marion's since college but even I know he has holes in game, don't like trade talk but most trade proposal's do mention Marion as great complimentary player.

 

[elindholm]

Using a spot on the Olympic team isn't that great a yardstick for establishing value. Isn't Richard Jefferson on it this year? He's a fine player, but I don't think anyone would consider paying him $10+ million a year, and he's certainly not one of the two best players on his own NBA team.

 

[BC867]

Shawn Marion is certainly a versatile player. He does alot of things well. But I believe he excels in only one area. He's a very good rebounder for a 6'7" Small Forward.

A couple of years ago, I ran into Shawn regularly at the Yoshi's restaurant at Indian School and 24th St. He was so shy, it was impossible to carry on a conversation. And I made it a point to not bring up any controversial or insider topics.

It seems that his inherent personality stands in the way of his becoming a leader/superstar.

I think Larry Bird was the same when he came into the league. But he rose to the occasion. We haven't seen that same development in Shawn.

 

[slinslin]

he's certainly not one of the two best players on his own NBA team.

That's certainly not a definate.
I think you will regret saying that next season because Richard Jefferson has turned into a fantastic player and might very well be the best player on his team right now.

 

[Joe Mama]

That's certainly not a definate.
I think you will regret saying that next season because Richard Jefferson has turned into a fantastic player and might very well be the best player on his team right now.

I agree. It's debatable who is better between Jefferson and Martin. Martin is probably more valuable because of the position he plays. They are both very good defenders.

Regardless of salary I would have a very hard time choosing between Shawn Marion and Richard Jefferson.

Joe Mama

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree. It's debatable who is better between Jefferson and Martin. Martin is probably more valuable because of the position he plays. They are both very good defenders.

Regardless of salary I would have a very hard time choosing between Shawn Marion and Richard Jefferson.

Joe Mama

no way - I'd take Jefferson in a heartbeat - he's going to continue to mature and we've seen him step up in the playoffs - Shawn's reached his celieing and has never beena rpime-time player IMO - and saying that hurts because I hate RJ and the Nets.

 

[Chaplin]

no way - I'd take Jefferson in a heartbeat - he's going to continue to mature and we've seen him step up in the playoffs - Shawn's reached his celieing and has never beena rpime-time player IMO - and saying that hurts because I hate RJ and the Nets.

Disagree there. RJ has the luxury of playing in the Leastern Conference, in the West he'd be torn up. Add to that the fact that he's probably a little too short for the Small Forward position in the West. I like RJ because he's from my alma mater, but I'd much prefer Shawn Marion. They are virtually alike athletically--the only real difference is that RJ can probably jump longer in a running jump, but Shawn can jump higher from a standing position. But right now, RJ has a little bit more consistency than Shawn, and that hurts us a little bit. If Marion had a good deal of consistency, I'd say at worst, it'd be a wash between those two guys.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Disagree there. RJ has the luxury of playing in the Leastern Conference, in the West he'd be torn up. Add to that the fact that he's probably a little too short for the Small Forward position in the West. I like RJ because he's from my alma mater, but I'd much prefer Shawn Marion. They are virtually alike athletically--the only real difference is that RJ can probably jump longer in a running jump, but Shawn can jump higher from a standing position. But right now, RJ has a little bit more consistency than Shawn, and that hurts us a little bit. If Marion had a good deal of consistency, I'd say at worst, it'd be a wash between those two guys.

I don't know Chap - it's closer than I made it to be but RJ is also much more aggressive than Shawn is and can actually create his own shot with the dribble - but it's really nothing to get worked up about so I guess I can leave it at that.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't know Chap - it's closer than I made it to be but RJ is also much more aggressive than Shawn is and can actually create his own shot with the dribble - but it's really nothing to get worked up about so I guess I can leave it at that.

Yeah, I see your point, but I just disagree that RJ ca create his own shot with the dribble--Jason Kidd does that for him.

But, with Jason Kidd on that team, and them being in the East, it's difficult to ascertain exactly how effective RJ would be in a comparison with Shawn Marion. Shawn had some pretty great games with Kidd at the helm (and then, of course, came John Starks' undercut, and the rest is history).

 

[slinslin]

Richard Jefferson is a lot better at driving the lane and dunking on people, drawing fouls and his midrange game and shooting has improved a lot.
He is much better than Marion at handling the ball and he put up some very big numbers without Jason Kidd.

Just look at some of his games without Kidd

22 points 7 rebounds 8 assists against Mavs
20 points 10 rebounds 8 assists against Bulls
28 points 3 rebounds 7 assists against Celtics
35 points 6 rebounds 7 assists against Cavs
24 points 8 rebounds 4 assists against Celtics
28 points 14 rebounds 5 assists against Wizards
18 points 6 rebounds 6 assists against Knicks
20 points 7 rebounds 12 assists against Hawks
25 points 5 rebounds 6 assists against Bucks
21 points 10 rebounds 7 assists against Lakers



Shawn Marion's career high assists is 8 twice.

 

[Chaplin]

Just look at some of his games without Kidd

22 points 7 rebounds 8 assists against Mavs
20 points 10 rebounds 8 assists against Bulls
28 points 3 rebounds 7 assists against Celtics
35 points 6 rebounds 7 assists against Cavs
24 points 8 rebounds 4 assists against Celtics
28 points 14 rebounds 5 assists against Wizards
18 points 6 rebounds 6 assists against Knicks
20 points 7 rebounds 12 assists against Hawks
25 points 5 rebounds 6 assists against Bucks
21 points 10 rebounds 7 assists against Lakers

I'll give him those performances against the Lakers, Mavs and MAYBE the Bucks, but the rest of those games aren't exactly great measuring sticks.

 

[slinslin]

Except the Bulls, Hawks and Wizards all those teams have better records than the Suns with Shawn Marion.
And how come Shawn Marion can't put up those assists numbers even against just bad teams?

 

[Joe Mama]

It's funny because I actually sat there and debated whether to write I would prefer Jefferson, but I went out. I did not feel like arguing that point. Like CheeseBeef I would take Jefferson. Slin, how did New Jersey fair in those games? If I remember correctly they did pretty well considering both Jason Kidd and Kenyon Martin were missing in most of them.

I really don't expect Shawn Marion to play much better than he did in the two seasons before last. I expect Richard Jefferson will improve more than him.

Lastly, and I know I might catch some flak for this, Richard Jefferson is a better defender. He might not get as many steals, but we'd be hard-pressed to find a better small forward defender than Jefferson other than Ron Artest.

BTW I've been wrong about funny of players in past drafts, but I knew Richard Jefferson was going to be a good one. I said repeatedly that he would be one of the top two or three players in that draft.

Joe Mama

 

[F-Dog]

BTW I've been wrong about funny of players in past drafts, but I knew Richard Jefferson was going to be a good one. I said repeatedly that he would be one of the top two or three players in that draft.

Joe Mama

I liked him a lot, myself. I couldn't believe that a team would take Jason Richardson over him--Jefferson seemed like the exact same player, except three inches taller and with more coaching and experience.


Marion does have something on RJ, though (besides the rebounds): Jefferson is a bonehead. He's not a good defender away from the ball thanks to his mental lapses, and not even that strong on offense away from the ball. He just can't seem to concentrate for all 40 minutes.

Marion is also a better spot-up shooter than RJ, and he'll be a much better spot-up shooter if he can ever get his form back.


That said, Jefferson is a great player, and he could easily improve to the point where he's a better all-around player than Marion. If that happens soon, though, he'll be making max money or close to it. New Jersey is in a bad spot negotiating with Jefferson and K-Mart, because they're so far over the cap already.

 

[George O'Brien]

It's an interesting debate. Since there is zero chance of a head to head trade, I'm not quite sure what the point is. But it is interesting.

BTW, I was really high on Jefferson coming out of college because he played man defense pretty well. At the same time, I know his value was reduced because his offense in college was erratic. In other words, he was just like Iggy.

 

[Joe Mama]

It's an interesting debate. Since there is zero chance of a head to head trade, I'm not quite sure what the point is. But it is interesting.

BTW, I was really high on Jefferson coming out of college because he played man defense pretty well. At the same time, I know his value was reduced because his offense in college was erratic. In other words, he was just like Iggy.

I know a few months ago I was arguing that the Phoenix Suns should not take Iguodala because of his shooting problems. Let me just say that I would be perfectly happy with him now. In fact I believe he would be a very good choice because he is an excellent defender. The Phoenix Suns could really use someone like him with the skills and ability to be a shut down perimeter defender.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

I know a few months ago I was arguing that the Phoenix Suns should not take Iguodala because of his shooting problems. Let me just say that I would be perfectly happy with him now. In fact I believe he would be a very good choice because he is an excellent defender. The Phoenix Suns could really use someone like him with the skills and ability to be a shut down perimeter defender.

Joe Mama

The lottery hasn't even happened and NOW you're flip-flopping? Thank God you're not running the team.

 

[George O'Brien]

I know that I will run hot and cold on players as I learn more. The hard part is figuring out all the other pieces besides the draft.