Draft thoughts

[GatorAZ]

Jarvis Jones is 6'2 245 with 33 inch arms. He is not a big guy. James Harrison is almost the same weight and at least two inches shorter if not more.

So, yeah. Jarvis Jones is pretty small to be a 3-4 OLB. I'm not saying it is impossible, but he is at the bottom of the height/weight scale for the position.

Yep... James Harrison shouldn't be compared and anybody anyway. He is freak of nature, barely 6' and a raging bowling ball filled with hate and explosion. In his peak he was 2nd only to LT.

We're likely taking Warmack or a pass-rusher at #7 IMO...

#7 - Jones/Jordan/Mingo
#38 - Warford
#69 - Schwenke

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I keep seeing everyone write mock drafts where we draft a bunch of offensive lineman, but I think that's pure fantasy.

OT: Brown, Massie, Potter
OG: Colledge, Snyder, Kelemete
C: Sendlein

I don't see much room for drafting all these lineman unless of course we keep ten, which is too many to keep.

I can see us drafting one in rounds one-three and another in the later rounds.

We desperately need a QB; Drafting one this year should be a critical focus. The front office needs to identify their Russell Wilson and draft the guy, and if he shows no progress this coming season, draft another next year. That's how you fix QB, you draft, draft, and draft again.

I'm probably in the minority but I want Geno Smith round one and if not Geno, I would love to see us (possibly) move up and snag Barkley. Warmack is a great talent as is Jarvis Jones, but QB is 50 times more important in todays NFL.

Not one of those offensive lineman have a guaranteed roster spot at this point. If we draft Warmack for instance than either College or Snyder is as good as gone.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Not one of those offensive lineman have a guaranteed roster spot at this point. If we draft Warmack for instance than either College or Snyder is as good as gone.

I disagree. You can't cut most of those guys due to terrible or great (Massie, Kelemete, Potter) contracts.

We're probably stuck with at least Brown, Colledge, Snyder, and Sendlein no matter what and cutting the three 2nd year guys doesn't make sense, since each showed progress last year.

That's seven lineman, so why use 3 picks on offensive line when were definitely not going to keep 10?

As Kerouac has stated, it's not that any one of those guys above are non-NFL talents, the problem is: this offensive line has no elite talents on it. We don't need quantity, we took that approach last offseason. What we need is quality, which this draft is definitely NOT lacking on.

Furthermore, do we really want three rookie offensive lineman developing at one time? That definitely will be bad for a struggling offense.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I disagree. You can't cut most of those guys due to terrible or great (Massie, Kelemete, Potter) contracts.

We're probably stuck with at least Brown, Colledge, Snyder, and Sendlein no matter what and cutting the three 2nd year guys doesn't make sense, since each showed progress last year.

That's seven lineman, so why use 3 picks on offensive line when were definitely not going to keep 10?

As Kerouac has stated, it's not that any one of those guys above are non-NFL talents, the problem is: this offensive line has no elite talents on it. We don't need quantity, we took that approach last offseason. What we need is quality, which this draft is definitely NOT lacking on.

Furthermore, do we really want three rookie offensive lineman developing at one time? That definitely will be bad for a struggling offense.

I would be willing to bet that if we draft a guard in the first 3 rounds either College or Snyder is gone. You're right though some of them are safe. I was just exaggerating when I said none of them are safe.

 

[MWOOD92]

Jarvis Jones is 6'2 245 with 33 inch arms. He is not a big guy. James Harrison is almost the same weight and at least two inches shorter if not more.

So, yeah. Jarvis Jones is pretty small to be a 3-4 OLB. I'm not saying it is impossible, but he is at the bottom of the height/weight scale for the position.

But the point is you can't say that he's too small. He's a first round top 10 talent. It shouldn't matter how big or small they are.

Yep... James Harrison shouldn't be compared and anybody anyway. He is freak of nature, barely 6' and a raging bowling ball filled with hate and explosion. In his peak he was 2nd only to LT.

I'm comparing them by size. James Harrison was "too small". Ray Lewis was "too small". I could keep going.. so does size really matter? No.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

But the point is you can't say that he's too small. He's a first round top 10 talent. It shouldn't matter how big or small they are.



I'm comparing them by size. James Harrison was "too small". Ray Lewis was "too small". I could keep going.. so does size really matter? No.

There are always exceptions but more the rule are guys like Buster Davis and Ernie Sims, so yes, size is a factor. In fact, size is somewhat of a concern with Warmack because he's on the short side of the scale as well.

 

[Duckjake]

Jarvis Jones is 6'2 245 with 33 inch arms. He is not a big guy. James Harrison is almost the same weight and at least two inches shorter if not more.

So, yeah. Jarvis Jones is pretty small to be a 3-4 OLB. I'm not saying it is impossible, but he is at the bottom of the height/weight scale for the position.

That's about the same size as O'Brien Schofield. Clark Haggans was 6'4" 245 when he played for the Cardinals. My question is why do the Cardinals keep putting the smaller OLB on the strong side?

 

[Krangodnzr]

But the point is you can't say that he's too small. He's a first round top 10 talent. It shouldn't matter how big or small they are.



I'm comparing them by size. James Harrison was "too small". Ray Lewis was "too small". I could keep going.. so does size really matter? No.

The same words came from my own mouth a few years ago about Von Miller.

Jarvis Jones is going to be very good regardless of his size. Warmack may be the safest pick, but Jones is an impact player.

 

[MWOOD92]

There are always exceptions but more the rule are guys like Buster Davis and Ernie Sims, so yes, size is a factor. In fact, size is somewhat of a concern with Warmack because he's on the short side of the scale as well.

Have you ever thought that maybe work ethic and mentality had something to do with their lack of success in the NFL? Not their size? There are plenty of 6'3", 6'4", and 6'5" linebackers that have never succeeded either. So no, size is not a factor. It's all between the ears.

 

[Chopper0080]

The same words came from my own mouth a few years ago about Von Miller.

Jarvis Jones is going to be very good regardless of his size. Warmack may be the safest pick, but Jones is an impact player.

Which was then made irrelavant because Denver put him as a 4-3 WOLB so he could roam free.

IMO, Jones would be better as a WOLB in a 4-3 than a WOLB in a 3-4 because a 4-3 allows him more protection from OTs similar to Von Miller.

 

[Chopper0080]

But the point is you can't say that he's too small. He's a first round top 10 talent. It shouldn't matter how big or small they are.



I'm comparing them by size. James Harrison was "too small". Ray Lewis was "too small". I could keep going.. so does size really matter? No.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Size has to be a consideration when evaluating a player. It shouldn't be THE determining factor, but it has to factor in especially depending on what you are asking that player to do. I stated this before, I'm not saying Jarvis Jones can't play OLB in a 3-4 because he is too small, I'm saying it has to be considered because he is at the bottom of the target size scale due to what a 3-4 OLB is expected to do.

As far as James Harrison, he was undrafted and bounced around practice squads for a couple years.

Size matters. Arm length matters. Speed matters. Work ethic matters. All are important pieces of the puzzle.

 

[JeffGollin]

The "Catcher in the Rye*" Approach to the Draft...

I've never seen so wide a variance in the grades different draft services are giving the same player. It's almost impossible to structure an acceptable 7 round mock draft because a player that one person drafts as a "4th round steal" may be off the board by the middle of round 2 in other mocks.

Doing mocks is fun, but in the real world, Steve Keim probably won't know who he'll actually draft until the Cards are on the clock. And, at that time, it's an even probability that some unexpected higher-rated player will drop to us. (Maybe not so likely at the 7-hole, where there are only 6 chances for teams ahead of us to do something weird, but more likely as we get further down into the draft).

For this reason, I expect Steve K, right before we pick each time, to "stand at the bottom of the cliff and catch the highest-rated player to drop over the edge - & more often than not, to be ready to be surprised (because you never know which player it might turn out to be).

* Main character of Catcher in the Rye, Holden Caufield, talked about standing at the bottom of a cliff and catching anyone who fell over it.

 

[Snakester]

Since the conversation has gone to outside linebacker-pass rusher and the Cards go with a pass rusher at 7 instead of O-line. As many of you are talking about the size of the player lets look at the two guys that they might take.

Jarvis Jones and Ziggy Ansah. Ansah reminds me of Aldon Smith. The tape I have seen on him he is amost always a down lineman whether he is at DE or DT. At 6-5 270 he has great size if we are going to use him as a DE or pure rush linebacker. He can drop back into a zone and cover somewhat. He is very athletic for his size, but is only a one year starter and is really raw. I think it would be sometime before we could use him in coverage so at least the first two years he would have to be just a pass rusher and run defender. Watching tape on him he has a good motor and tackles well and is a good run defender.

Jones reminds me of Dwight Freeney and James Harrison. A smaller guy with good strength that knows how to use leverage. At 6-2 245 he can move and drop into coverage better than Ansah. He is very agressive and closes quickly on the QB or RB.

The question is what does Bowles prefer in his style of 3-4 defense. Looking around the NFL most 3-4 defenses tend to have guys 6-2 245 to 6-3 260 at outside linebacker. This would seem to favor Jones over Ansah at OLB.

Now what if Bowles doesn't want Ansah as a OLB, but as a pass rushing DE like The Giants trio of Pierre-Paul, Tuck and Umenyiora. Then Ansah makes more sense at 6-5 270. Either way both should turn out to be very good pass rushers, but Jones has produced big time the last two years with 28 sacks compared to Ansah's 4.5 career sacks. Jones has also played football for many years where Ansah has only started one year of football and didn't play football untill he went to college.

 

[Reddog]

Not one of those offensive lineman have a guaranteed roster spot at this point. If we draft Warmack for instance than either College or Snyder is as good as gone.

Not sure it makes sense to cut him because there is no cap savings so why not keep him for depth.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Not sure it makes sense to cut him because there is no cap savings so why not keep him for depth.

If we cut one of them now they dont cost anything against the 2014 cap. College for instance has a cap hit of over 7M this year and next year. If you cut him now you won't have to deal with 4.5M of dead money next year. Or have to deal with 7.275M cap hit next year with him on the roster.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

 

[john h]

I would like to see our draft go like this.

1. Eric Fisher- Make him our new LT from day one.

2. Kyle Long- Start him at LG from day one and let him learn on the job like Massie did last year. Him and Fisher would make a great left side in a year or two. Kyle plays with alot of attitude like his father Howie.

3. Brian Schwenke- I really like this guy as a center. He has very good feet and gets to the second level with ease. He can pull well and he holds his ground as well.

4. Bacarri Rambo- Since we released both Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes I figure we need a replacement. Rambo has the talent to go higher in the draft, but because of failing a drug test and serving a 4-game suspension last year I think he slips. The guy has been a ballhawk (16 career int's). Start him at free safety from day one and let him learn and be ready for 2014.

5. Kwame Geathers- We signed Shaughnessy to be our backup DE. We draft Geathers to be our backup NT. This guy is huge 6-6 350 with 35 inch arms and moves well for such a big man.

Although I would love to see us take care of the O-line this year I think we may only add one guy in the first few rounds. My reasoning is this. Even though Arians seems to love Drew Stanton, I can't believe he will put all his eggs into the one basket for Stanton. I believe he will still draft a QB.

Looking at our division with Kaepernick and Russell Wilson I see two guys that can escape the pocket and run well. They are both pretty good passers as well. I always hear how the NFL is a copycat league. After looking at alot of game tape yesterday on the quarterbacks coming out. EJ Manuel stood out the most to me as an athletic QB that is both a dangerous runner and a good passer. He has a great arm and was accurate this year. (68% completion). I can see us taking him in the second round.

The way I see the draft really going is this way. Both Joeckel and Fisher will be gone before we pick. That leaves Chance Warmack and Lance Johnson as the top two linemen left. Because we have Levi Brown coming back and Massie at RT I can see us doing one of two things. Drafting Warmack or a passrusher.

The top pass rushers are Jarvis Jones, Ezekiel Ansah and Dion Jordan. Because we are more of a 3-4 team I see Jones and Jordan as the likely pick because they can step in as rush linebackers. The way I see it it comes down to either Warmack of Jones as our top pick. Either would be fine by me, but I can see us taking Warmack as the safe pick. So our first rounder is Chance Warmack.

In the second round I see us taking QB EJ Manuel. He would be our version of Colin Kaepernick. Other second rounders that I would love to see us get are Eddie Lacy RB, Tank Carradine DE, Kawann Short DT, Margus Hunt DE Kyle Long, Larry Warford and Alex Okafor DE.

Our third round pick will probably be a safety because of the need.There are several guys to choose from that might be there that are rated high. Rambo, Phillip Thomas, DJ Swearinger, and Tony Jefferson. Other guys that I like in the third round are- C Brian Schwenke, RB Andre Ellington, QB Tyler Bray and OLB Brandon Jenkins. I have Schwenke as my #1 Center. Ellington as my #2 RB. From watching film I think Ellington is the most Dynamic RB in this class.

In rounds 4-7 I can see us taking a LB, DT, WR and RB.

It seems the greatest QBs of all time could hardly run a lick. Manning, Marino, Warner, Graham, etc. Of course there have been some who could run well or stay in the pocket like Big Ben or Elway. My question is can a running QB like Vick remain healthy over several seasons? They are more exposed to hits when running I would think. Certainly so in Vick's case. If they can remain healthy it is sure a big plus to be able to escape and force the defense to have a man guarding against a QB run. Waiting around for a draft where there is a great running QB is like watching mud flow. There are not that many in a decade and you also have to be drafting in a slot high enough to get one. Combine those two and the odds of you finding an RGIII are very very long.

A QB who can get rid of the ball fast and who can read defenses real well may do as well as the fast on his feet QB.

 

[john h]

I don't mean to "spit in your soup" but you may want to revisit Long - specifically the scout's verbatim on him in the PFW Draft Guide.

He essentially says that, during the observed practice session, Long was unfocused and didn't seem to take his workout seriously. It raised a red flag (Is he a bit full of himself due to his family connections)?

I say this after hoping he'd be a blue chip prospect (because - if he graded out highly - it would mean one additional quality OL for us to choose from). But you don't often see scouts going that public with that negative a criticism and it made me nervous about Long.

Only recently have I seen articles where our first pick may be a pass rusher. We have gone from OT to QB and now to DE or a pass rushing LB. I wonder if we even know for sure what we want? I suspect we have 3 or 4 guys lined up according to BPA to take regardless of position. If some are close in ability we will go to need. Bidwill said we are not going to reach anymore so that is getting really close to BPA. It could be a pass rusher. I have decided I do not have a clue and will ride with the waves. My big hope is we get a QB in round 1-3. At least give us a shot at our most important need and the most valuable position on any team. After reading all your many post and reading all the gurus predictions I am back to BPA unless it is someone who would replace a sport we are already very strong at. We sure do not need to replace Peterson, Campbell and a few others so there are always exceptions to any rule. No matter who we draft I do not think we can beat out SF, Seattle, or even St Louis so we will struggle to win 8 games. I am beginning to think we will win around 6-7 games if all goes well. I just hope we do not get blown away and stay at least competitive. If we can do that we might accidentally have the ball bounce our way and get some luck and win 8 games. That is a stretch however. We need to improve each year for the next 3 years in a row and somehow find the elusive QB to even come close to SF and Seattle with those two young dynamic QBs they have. Of course injuries can change the course of any teams destiny. It is really hard to believe we started 4-0 last year and then went into a tail spin from which we could not recover. I already had us marked down as the Division winner. I had not yet heard of Keppernick or Wilson.

 

[Chopper0080]

It seems the greatest QBs of all time could hardly run a lick. Manning, Marino, Warner, Graham, etc. Of course there have been some who could run well or stay in the pocket like Big Ben or Elway. My question is can a running QB like Vick remain healthy over several seasons? They are more exposed to hits when running I would think. Certainly so in Vick's case. If they can remain healthy it is sure a big plus to be able to escape and force the defense to have a man guarding against a QB run. Waiting around for a draft where there is a great running QB is like watching mud flow. There are not that many in a decade and you also have to be drafting in a slot high enough to get one. Combine those two and the odds of you finding an RGIII are very very long.

A QB who can get rid of the ball fast and who can read defenses real well may do as well as the fast on his feet QB.

I will always believe that a QBs ability to move will always be secondary to his ability to diagnose defenses pre-snap, in pocket awareness, accuracy and to a certain agree, arm strength. IMO, above average movement skills are a complementry trait rather than a primary one for QBs. That being said, a top passing QB who has the ability to run will always be more valued than a top running QB who has the ability to throw. Being able to pass from the pocket is the most important trait of a QB and always will be IMO.

 

[john h]

I will go on record on this thread stating that, for 3-4 teams, OLBs Walter Stewart - Cincinnati and Quanterus Smith - Western Kentucky will be steals. Both are really good athletes with great initial burst and have been dropped due to injuries. I would take both of these players in any round after 4 and love my pass rush depth.

My dream draft if the stars align is...

1-Chance Warmack - Alabama - OG
2-Terron Armstead - Arkansas-Pine Bluff - OT
3-Jaime Collins - Southern Mississippi - OLB
4-Duke Williams - Nevada - S
5-Stepfan Taylor - Stanford - RB
6a-Walter Stewart - Cincinnati - OLB
6b-Sean Renfree - Duke - QB

This requires Collins and Taylor to drop farther than I think they will and Renfree's injury to factor into his draft status more than I think it will. But, other than that, this gives us two rush linebacker prospects, two offensive line prospects and young players to develop at RB, QB, and S with Taylor and Renfree coming from pro-freindly offenses.

When drafting a player from a team that is filled with a bunch of NFL future players and who is the national champion you must be very careful. Surrounded by a group of stars often make you look better than you are. This may have been the case with Leinart. He was on a super team. Guys like Bush, White and a great line could cover up a lot of his sins. Warmack may be a future super star in the NFL but look especially close at any one player coming off a super Alabama team who was strong at every position. Put some of those guys on a normal team and they may be normal players. If you have a couple of future NFL All Pros playing next to you it is certainly going to make you look better no matter how good you are.

 

[john h]

I am starting to lean more towards taking a Pass Rusher with our first draft pick. The lack of such a player is the single most glaring missing person on our roster when compared to virtually ALL other SB winning teams. Even when we had Warner, we lacked a really good pass rusher on defense, and we couldn't hold the lead late in the game. A play maker there might make our defense much more formidable, (especially given BA's propensity for playing situational football). In addition, the second round does not appear to have that 'elite' type pass rusher available this year, though some would argue about Okafor. I am reluctant to put him into that category.

It has been about a month ago that Mitch made a post suggesting drafting a DE pass rusher. He was a man before his time now that we have a number of people on this band wagon. I think the last really good pass rusher we had was Simeon Rice which as normal he ends up on some other team. Adrian Wilson has probably been our best pass rusher in recent years until Campbell came along. Glad to see Adrian immediately picked up by another team. He still has some steam and a ton of experience.

Is not the guy from Georgia supposed to be the best pass rusher in this group and likely to go in first 5?

Statistically I read that when comparing teams that were really strong offensively or really strong defensively that they came out almost even in winning. Some good examples might be Buddy Ryans Bear defense and Kurt Warner's Greatest Show on Earth offense. One wins on defense and the other on offense. That Bear team was one of the only teams I recall that had a marginal QB yet won largely on defense. It is near impossible to be great on both offense and defense. If so it want be for long due to CAP space and players wanting increased pay.

 

[Chopper0080]

When drafting a player from a team that is filled with a bunch of NFL future players and who is the national champion you must be very careful. Surrounded by a group of stars often make you look better than you are. This may have been the case with Leinart. He was on a super team. Guys like Bush, White and a great line could cover up a lot of his sins. Warmack may be a future super star in the NFL but look especially close at any one player coming off a super Alabama team who was strong at every position. Put some of those guys on a normal team and they may be normal players. If you have a couple of future NFL All Pros playing next to you it is certainly going to make you look better no matter how good you are.

The difference between Warmack and those others players is that Warmack isn't dependant on any other players. The question on offensive linemen is college is more on the level of competition they faced rather than the quality of team they played on. How close is the level of talent hhe faces to that which he will face on Sundays? Does he demonstrate enough physical strength and athleticism to play on Sundays and execute in a professional blocking scheme?

In terms of Warmack, his question marks are his athleticism (ability to block at the 2nd level and pull) and his work ethic, which is purely based on his sloppy body.

 

[john h]

The difference between Warmack and those others players is that Warmack isn't dependant on any other players. The question on offensive linemen is college is more on the level of competition they faced rather than the quality of team they played on. How close is the level of talent hhe faces to that which he will face on Sundays? Does he demonstrate enough physical strength and athleticism to play on Sundays and execute in a professional blocking scheme?

In terms of Warmack, his question marks are his athleticism (ability to block at the 2nd level and pull) and his work ethic, which is purely based on his sloppy body.

Fisher is picked by many services as a top 5 pick now. He is often mentioned in connection with the Cards. My only concern with him was he played in a smaller conference and faced lesser competition as you note (Central Michigan). He has great workouts and stats but that is not like playing against SEC teams day in and day out. Wonder how much NFL teams take that into consideration? I do not pretend to know the answer to this but playing in a smaller conference against lesser competition does give me cause for concern. Warmack did play against the best in the SEC and was on the best team in America for a couple of years in a row. If we only had an X-ray machine into a players brain and heart? Can he bring it 16 games a year for year after year against the best in the world? We cannot measure that. It takes a certain amount of meanness I would think. You need a guy like Conrad Dobler who wold bite, scratch, and do what ever it takes. It is hard to be a nice guy on the field in the NFL.