Dump the 3-4 Defense

[BW52]

I would rather Cards go back to 4-3 Defense..........Cards seem to get exposed by no pass rush and poor coverage in the middle constantly.Poor CF coverage also.No inside pass rush.Branch and Watson are non factors in pass rushing (i realize they are to take up Blockers).It seems to me getting Docketts speed and pass rush skills at DT full time and Campbell`s pass rush deveopmenting skills at DE has to be better than having to resort to a blitzing LBfor pressure.Another pass rushing DE from the draft and a LB will help out.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

I would rather Cards go back to 4-3 Defense..........Cards seem to get exposed by no pass rush and poor coverage in the middle constantly.Poor CF coverage also.No inside pass rush.Branch and Watson are non factors in pass rushing (i realize they are to take up Blockers).It seems to me getting Docketts speed and pass rush skills at DT full time and Campbell`s pass rush deveopmenting skills at DE has to be better than having to resort to a blitzing LBfor pressure.Another pass rushing DE from the draft and a LB will help out.

While the Cards don't have a singular dominating pass rusher, I believe they were still a top 10 team (ranked 6th, with 43 sacks) in the sack department this year. That and they lowered their points allowed by a touchdown, over the Pendercrap defense of years past. They were playing a 3-4 without all of the 3-4 pieces to the puzzle. It takes 2-3 years to really develop that defense. They can't turn back now.

 

[SuperSpck]

Yeah, the personnel isn't perfect yet, but we've got some important pieces in place.
No reason to turn back (although I prefer the 4 down set myself).

 

[WildBB]

Need to get better impact players particularly at NT and on the edges. Look at the way Dallas is playing it now WITH the personell and Pitt last year. When you have the package the other team doesn't know where it's coming at them from.

 

[Pariah]

I like the 3-4. We need to get younger and faster at OLB.

 

[Russ Smith]

I like the 3-4. We need to get younger and faster at OLB.

Agreed but we also have a huge issue at ILB. We don't expect Dansby back and we don't know if Hayes is on the way down due to injury.

To me that's a legit thing to consider we're closer to being able to go 4-3 than 3-4 right now because we have so many questions with the starters at LB.

Now if we can luck into a McClain to replace Dansby, Hayes is back healthy then yeah I agree keep building the 3-4. But that also limits who you hire as DC you have to hire someone who will play the 3-4.

I think we have much better DL's than LB's right now which is why if it were me I'd be going 4-3.

 

[Pariah]

I think we have much better DL's than LB's right now which is why if it were me I'd be going 4-3.

I agree, but the type of linemen that we have are 3-4 linemen. We essentially have a bunch of penetrating tackles, and not enough 4-3 DEs.

I don't think we ought to try to change direction at this point -- it may well render the talent the cardinals have accumulated at the DL ineffective AND we'd still not be strong at LB.

JMHO

 

[Covert Rain]

I also disagree. Bring in some more guys that can play the 3-4. Also, even though the team ranked pretty well in sacks, the last 2 weeks have shown that how you get a sack is more important. If you constantly have to bring guys in a blitz to earn your sacks then your going to leave your DB's on an island and get burned against good QB's.

 

[slanidrac16]

I like the 3-4. We need to get younger and faster at OLB.

I was going to start a seperate post on just this subject...we need to get faster on defense especially at linebacker. Watch the Vikings today with Leber and Greenway.

 

[Shogun]

3-4 > 4-3.

 

[Gaddabout]

3-4 > 4-3.

Personnel defines that. Scheme is just a tool. One's a sledgehammer and one's a jackhammer. They both have their strengths and weaknesses depending what your agenda on defense is.


Would be shocked if the bulk of the draft doesn't lean towards linebacker, nickel back, and pass rushers at any given position. Either that or Boldin gets sent away for a semi-premium pass rusher.

 

[Dan H]

FWIW the majority of the teams in the playoffs this year were base 3-4.

 

[Shane]

The 3-4 blows!

 

[cardsfanmd]

The problem is very simple here:

When Whiz took over this team nobody knew that Kurt still had this type of game left. With that in mind, Whiz began to build Pittsburgh West. In doing so he wanted to use a 3-4 defense. He also wanted a run heavy O that pounded defenses into submission and beat them through the air when they weren't expecting it. Essentially, he wanted to build a team whose strengths would be running the ball and stopping the run.

All of that is great, buuuuuut since we found what Kurt was able play at this level we have been throwing the vast majority of the time. When you throw with success it forces your opponent to throw. The 3-4 scheme's weakness is playing a good passing team. Look at what Warner did to Baltimore in that one half of play a few years ago. Look at what Pittsburgh did to GB a few weeks ago, what we did to them a few weeks later and what we did to Pittsburgh in the SB. Finally look at what good passing teams (and some who weren't) did to us through the air. The problem is that we have a D built to stop the run, but our O forces teams to pass on us.

Now Billy Davis does suck. He has shown that throughout his career. If you were expecting anything decent out of his D than you must not have watched any of the SF defenses he coached. I think his hiring was no more than Whiz trying to see what some consistency and stability would do for the D after Butler rejected him. Now that it has shown to be be irrelevant I expect to see him fired shortly. However, as long as Kurt is QBing this team I don't expect any 3-4 out of us to be all that great. Passing teams' best shot is a 4-3 predominate Cover 2 IMO, similar to what the Colts, Vikes, N.O., and Tampa employ. It gives you smaller faster players who can excel in coverage as well as pass rushing for their positions. Obviously that D's weakness is that they can be bullied off the ball.

With all of this said, I think Leinart will be the man next year and we will begin to run the ball more. That in itself will improve our D. I like the 3-4.

 

[Dayman]

I understand the need for patience during the transition to the 3-4, but we're three years into the process, and aside from Campbell, I'm still not sure how many of the pieces are in place. Branch proved he can be an effective player this year, but he clearly isn't the NT the team envisioned. However, he might excel as a DT in a 4-3. Dockett and Branch on the inside would be tough to run against. I hope Davis and Brown develop as OLBs, but we clearly haven't seen enough of them to judge how they'll adapt to a position change. Dansby was a better fit on the outside of the 4-3. Watson hurt his knee again and doesn't look like the future in the middle.

In theory, I love the idea of a 3-4, but without the correct personnel, it isn't much more than a gimmick. Our yards allowed have actually gone up every year since the switch, spanning two DCs. Unless we can somehow steal a guy like Franklin away from the Niners, I'm a little skeptical that life in the 3-4 will get better any time soon.

 

[Buckybird]

I was going to start a seperate post on just this subject...we need to get faster on defense especially at linebacker. Watch the Vikings today with Leber and Greenway.

I brought our teams lack of overall team speed in another thread, especially on defense. Look at all 8 teams left in the playoffs before yesterday & the Cards are like comparing a HS team vs. a NFL team in the speed department.

 

[Assface]

FWIW the majority of the teams in the playoffs this year were base 3-4.

3 out of 4 teams going to the conference championship games play a 4-3.

 

[Shane]

3 out of 4 teams going to the conference championship games play a 4-3.

Yup.

 

[Chopper0080]

What people tend to forget about why the 3-4 was so great in the past, is that it wasn't very popular. That is a very big deal because it meant that less teams were targeting these tweener type DE/OLB's and big college DE's. That means you could draft your defensive personnel later in the draft because those players didn't fit in most teams defenses. Now that is not the case, which makes it harder to get those needed edge pass rushers.

 

[Duckjake]

I would rather Cards go back to 4-3 Defense..........Cards seem to get exposed by no pass rush and poor coverage in the middle constantly.Poor CF coverage also.No inside pass rush.Branch and Watson are non factors in pass rushing (i realize they are to take up Blockers).It seems to me getting Docketts speed and pass rush skills at DT full time and Campbell`s pass rush deveopmenting skills at DE has to be better than having to resort to a blitzing LBfor pressure.Another pass rushing DE from the draft and a LB will help out.

Would Dockett be effective as a DE in a 4-3? The first line would be Dockett,Watson,Branch,Campbell. Darnell is heavier than most 4-3 DEs but he seems to me to be quick enough to play that position.

Just talking for fun because we all know the Cards aren't going to switch.

 

[kerouac9]

Agreed but we also have a huge issue at ILB. We don't expect Dansby back and we don't know if Hayes is on the way down due to injury.

To me that's a legit thing to consider we're closer to being able to go 4-3 than 3-4 right now because we have so many questions with the starters at LB.

Now if we can luck into a McClain to replace Dansby, Hayes is back healthy then yeah I agree keep building the 3-4. But that also limits who you hire as DC you have to hire someone who will play the 3-4.

I think we have much better DL's than LB's right now which is why if it were me I'd be going 4-3.

I think that Graves is making a huge mistake if he allows Karlos Dansby to leave this offseason (surprise, right?). Dansby is the second-most consistent performer on the defense behind Dockett. That being said, I think you can get an LB like Derrick Johnson for 60-75% of what Dansby's going to demand on the open market.

Also, you can get run-plugging ILBs in the draft in the 3-5th rounds that can step in right away. It happens every season. I'm really not that concerned if we lack depth at ILB because it's the easiest and cheapest to draft for as long as you're not picking one in the Top 8 (D. Johnson, A.J. Hawk, etc.).

 

[Shane]

Would Dockett be effective as a DE in a 4-3? The first line would be Dockett,Watson,Branch,Campbell. Darnell is heavier than most 4-3 DEs but he seems to me to be quick enough to play that position.

Just talking for fun because we all know the Cards aren't going to switch.

Nope Branch would still be a back up. You would have Dockett as a VERY effective 4-3 DT... Cody Brown could make more of an immediate impact as a DE since that is what he has played his whole life. Instead of having to have "the time to transition" from a DE to a 3-4 OLB.

 

[kerouac9]

Nope Branch would still be a back up. You would have Dockett as a VERY effective 4-3 DT... Cody Brown could make more of an immediate impact as a DE since that is what he has played his whole life. Instead of having to have "the time to transition" from a DE to a 3-4 OLB.

Ich. Cody Brown is listed at 6'3", 244 on ESPN.com. Just for comparison's sake, that's the EXACT same size as Monty Beisel. Berry is somewhat undersized for a DE, and he has 10 POUNDS on Cody Brown.

Karlos Dansby is bigger than Cody Brown.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Would Dockett be effective as a DE in a 4-3? The first line would be Dockett,Watson,Branch,Campbell. Darnell is heavier than most 4-3 DEs but he seems to me to be quick enough to play that position.

Just talking for fun because we all know the Cards aren't going to switch.

In a 4-3 Dockett is/would be a undertackle.

 

[Shane]

Ich. Cody Brown is listed at 6'3", 244 on ESPN.com. Just for comparison's sake, that's the EXACT same size as Monty Beisel. Berry is somewhat undersized for a DE, and he has 10 POUNDS on Cody Brown.

Karlos Dansby is bigger than Cody Brown.

True but who knows if he has put on some weight. IIRC correctly they felt he could handle gaining some wihtout losing his speed on the edge.