Duncan may get suspension!

[hsandhu]

Nothing. No altercation was taking place. People stand up on the court all the time during games...look at Ronny Turiaf.

Uh, except duncan was sitting down before the altercation, then saw elson go down and walked several feet over the outbounds line on to the court.

 

[D-Dogg]

Rules are rules. Suspend his ass.

Yeah, rules are rules. That's why nothing will come of Duncan's because the rule says an altercation has to take place.

Believe me, I'm all for anything that gets Palms Up Timmy suspended...legitimately.

 

[D-Dogg]

It was exactly the same reaction Amare had. He was up for start some altercation or help Elson (what is exactly the Amare´s attitude).

No, not even close. I didn't see four coaches dragging him away from a shoving match, like they did to Amare when he was "just checking in."

There was no altercation, no foul, no stoppage in play. Not the same thing.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

except there was no alercation there................

 

[kps0001]

Stern has left the rule open to his interpretation. I don't think anyone but Horry gets suspended based on the many ways one can interpret the exact rule.

The rule states the player can't leave the vicinity of the bench during an altercation. Well if you look at the definitions of those two words there is a lot of ambiguity there. Stern is giving the league an out.

The true definition of an altercation, yes I looked it up, is:

Main Entry: al·ter·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "ol-t&r-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: a noisy heated angry dispute; also : noisy controversy
synonym see QUARREL



Main Entry: vi·cin·i·ty
Pronunciation: v&-'si-n&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle French vicinité, from Latin vicinitat-, vicinitas, from vicinus neighboring, from vicus row of houses, village; akin to Gothic weihs village, Old Church Slavic visi, Greek oikos, oikia house
1 : the quality or state of being near : PROXIMITY
2 : a surrounding area or district : NEIGHBORHOOD
3 : NEIGHBORHOOD 3b

 

[Gee!]

Rules are rules. Suspend his ass.

Thats what I was gonna say.. Follow the letter of the law..

 

[Furio]

Yeah, rules are rules. That's why nothing will come of Duncan's because the rule says an altercation has to take place.

Believe me, I'm all for anything that gets Palms Up Timmy suspended...legitimately.

But can you pinpoint when the "altercation" began for those two plays in question? When Amare and Diaw stepped onto the court, had the altercation begun yet or should you never step on the court, ever? One could argue that Duncan was initiating a possible altercation when he stepped onto the court (so he's lucky no altercation started).

So if you want to be black and white about it, Diaw/Amare/Duncan/Bowen have to be suspended. If you want to uphold the spirit of the law, you have to be able to differentiate shades of gray. People are not robots, people are human. We can't go through every situation with only YES/NO answers. We sometimes have to use MAYBE, even if in the past YES/NO worked. When a situation you haven't thought about occurs, you should be able to use judgement instead of an inflexible rule which sometimes doesn't take into account the real intent of the rule.

Sorry for rambling, I'm trying to make myself feel better.

 

[elindholm]

Avery Johnson leaves the box during every single game. While play is still going on. He basically jumps onto the court screaming.

Used to.

 

[elindholm]

No, not even close. I didn't see four coaches dragging him away from a shoving match, like they did to Amare when he was "just checking in."

Link please?

 

[Cheesebeef]

It was exactly the same reaction Amare had. He was up for start some altercation or help Elson (what is exactly the Amare´s attitude).

EXACTLY. If rules are rules, Duncan and Bowen are both gone as well. Amare and Diaw both jumped off the bench the moment the play happened JUST LIKE Duncan and Bowen and then they retreated once the fight broke out. Truth be told, ALL OF THEM should be suspended or NONE OF THEM should. that's the bottom line.

 

[D-Dogg]

One could argue that Duncan was initiating a possible altercation when he stepped onto the court (so he's lucky no altercation started).

There you go, he is lucky no altercation started then or he would be suspended too. That is the letter of the law. Not that one potentially could have broken out. In Amare's case there was an altercation, and he was not in the game and he was on the court. Fairly cut and dry.

 

[D-Dogg]

Link please?

in the other thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0qe7PGCQvI


3:05-3:18

You also see him start to go towards the Bell/Horry shovefest too, right before he is pushed back to the bench, off balance too. It was more clear in the HD..I watched it a few times. That is straight from the broadcast.

 

[D-Dogg]

EXACTLY. If rules are rules, Duncan and Bowen are both gone as well. Amare and Diaw both jumped off the bench the moment the play happened JUST LIKE Duncan and Bowen and then they retreated once the fight broke out. Truth be told, ALL OF THEM should be suspended or NONE OF THEM should. that's the bottom line.

There was no altercation, only the potential of one. Therefore, nothing on Tim's. IF it had broken out into something, then Tim should be suspended, but it didn't.

There you go, he is lucky no altercation started then or he would be suspended too. That is the letter of the law. Not that one potentially could have broken out. In Amare's case there was an altercation, and he was not in the game and he was on the court. Fairly cut and dry.

In Amare's case he was on the court while an altercation was taking place, advancing to the altercation, and he wasn't in the game at the time. I know you guys want loopholes, and the league may even give you one, but if he's suspended it isn't because the league is screwing you, it is because Amare broke a rule. A stupid rule, but a rule nonetheless.

 

[azirish]

What EXACTLY is an altercation?

I always assumed that there need to be physical contact like shoving. Does talking constitute and altercation?

 

[jbeecham]

Again it goes back to what the league's decision of an altercation is. If Elson crashing to the floor, getting up and going after James Jones is deemed an altercation then Bowen & Duncan can be punished. Even if it's not truely an altercation, the league can use this as an excuse to either suspend them all or none but Horry if it wants to.

 

[D-Dogg]

What EXACTLY is an altercation?

I always assumed that there need to be physical contact like shoving. Does talking constitute and altercation?

THAT is a very arguable point. It is rather subjective as to what an altercation is.

 

[kps0001]

What EXACTLY is an altercation?

I always assumed that there need to be physical contact like shoving. Does talking constitute and altercation?

what am i on ignore here...look a few posts up from yours.

Stern has left the rule open to his interpretation. I don't think anyone but Horry gets suspended based on the many ways one can interpret the exact rule.

The rule states the player can't leave the vicinity of the bench during an altercation. Well if you look at the definitions of those two words there is a lot of ambiguity there. Stern is giving the league an out.

The true definition of an altercation, yes I looked it up, is:

Main Entry: al·ter·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "ol-t&r-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: a noisy heated angry dispute; also : noisy controversy
synonym see QUARREL



Main Entry: vi·cin·i·ty
Pronunciation: v&-'si-n&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle French vicinité, from Latin vicinitat-, vicinitas, from vicinus neighboring, from vicus row of houses, village; akin to Gothic weihs village, Old Church Slavic visi, Greek oikos, oikia house
1 : the quality or state of being near : PROXIMITY
2 : a surrounding area or district : NEIGHBORHOOD
3 : NEIGHBORHOOD 3b

 

[planaria]

No, not even close. I didn't see four coaches dragging him away from a shoving match, like they did to Amare when he was "just checking in."

There was no altercation, no foul, no stoppage in play. Not the same thing.

Sorry, like or not, but the Duncan himself was trying to start an altercation invading the court.

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There is no another reason for him getting on court after Elson falled down.

 

[Furio]

There you go, he is lucky no altercation started then or he would be suspended too. That is the letter of the law. Not that one potentially could have broken out. In Amare's case there was an altercation, and he was not in the game and he was on the court. Fairly cut and dry.

Okay, here's the point I'm trying to make. Both Amare and Duncan were reacting to the play, not the altercation. For Amare, a slight altercation developed after the reaction and that's when they moved back to the magical bench area. Luckily for Duncan, no altercation developed and he moved back to the bench. This is a case where a rule no longer makes sense and you have to adjust it to get back to the spirit of its intent.

 

[D-Dogg]

Sorry, like or not, but the Duncan himself was trying to start an altercation invading the court.

But there wasn't one. Trying to start from 20 feet away? Doesn't pass the eye test. There was no altercation, thus no violation of the stupid stay on the bench rule.

 

[planaria]

^When Amare left the bench there wasnt an alternication. Antoni was going in the Horry direction (as Elson was going in the JJ direction before be hold by refs). Amare was pulled back to the bench before the stuff got really hot.

 

[Linderbee]

In Amare's case he was on the court while an altercation was taking place, advancing to the altercation, and he wasn't in the game at the time. I know you guys want loopholes, and the league may even give you one, but if he's suspended it isn't because the league is screwing you, it is because Amare broke a rule. A stupid rule, but a rule nonetheless.

I usually agree with you, but in this case I think you are wrong. In the exact video you provided the link to--from 3:05 - 3:18, Amare is CLEARLY not near the bench--but I think it is very probable that he was going to check in. THEN the altercation started. At that point it looks to me like the coaches/trainers/whoever had the presence of mind to think, "Crap--a fight--and he's not "in" the game--get him back to the bench", and that's when they ALL started getting him away from there. I do NOT believe he was on the court while an altercation was taking place--he was on the court AND THEN an altercation took place. At no point does it look to me like he's advancing towards the altercation.

 

[D-Dogg]

I usually agree with you, but in this case I think you are wrong. In the exact video you provided the link to--from 3:05 - 3:18, Amare is CLEARLY not near the bench--

Agree

but I think it is very probable that he was going to check in. THEN the altercation started.

Seriously disagree...he isn't going to the table, he's looking at what's going on and he came off the bench after the foul took place...nobody called him in because EVERYONE on the coaching staff rushed to Nash, D'Antoni was there in a flash. Amare got up because of the hard foul...went to check it out. Not went to check in. I don't see that at all, no way.

At that point it looks to me like the coaches/trainers/whoever had the presence of mind to think, "Crap--a fight--and he's not "in" the game--get him back to the bench", and that's when they ALL started getting him away from there. I do NOT believe he was on the court while an altercation was taking place--he was on the court AND THEN an altercation took place.

I agree. However, he was technically a bench player on the court during the altercation...how he gets there I don't believe is relevant to the NBA (though definitely a loophole possibility).

At no point does it look to me like he's advancing towards the altercation.

I disagree...he starts walking fast, right before Nash jumped up and goes to shove. The coaches grab him and push him backward to the bench and he is resisting it. He isn't trying to go check in, and he isn't trying to go check on Nash. He's resisting the coaches because he wants to go stick up for his guys. Which is a good thing, but against the rule. But I do see him change his focus and direction toward the little pattycake festival.




We'll see it how we see it I guess...the only thing that matters is how the league sees it.

 

[Nash Attack]

My question, if James Jones would have seen Duncan out there, and realizing oppertunity, would have punched Elson, would Duncan then be suspended?

 

[D-Dogg]

My question, if James Jones would have seen Duncan out there, and realizing oppertunity, would have punched Elson, would Duncan then be suspended?

Absolutely.