ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

[MAKTEN]

Ravens at Cardinals
LT Jonathan Ogden and LG Edwin Mulitalo vs. DE Calvin Pace and DT Marcus Bell
The Ravens offense moves the ball almost exclusively on the ground while putting it into the air only when necessary. They have a large offensive line, and one of the best running backs in the league in Jamal Lewis, and will continue to run even if they don't have immediate success. There is little worry of that taking place against the Cardinals, who have an incredibly small defensive front. The left side of the Ravens line has an 80 pound advantage when tackle Jonathan Ogden goes up against defensive end Calvin Pace. Next to Pace, Marcus Bell is filling in because of injury and is a tough player to move aside at 330 pounds. But while Bell normally requires a double team on running plays, guard Mulitalo is one of the biggest and strongest linemen around, and outweighs Bell as well.

Calivn! Lets see somethin' this weekend buddy!!!

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by MAKTEN
Ravens at Cardinals
LT Jonathan Ogden and LG Edwin Mulitalo vs. DE Calvin Pace and DT Marcus Bell
The Ravens offense moves the ball almost exclusively on the ground while putting it into the air only when necessary. They have a large offensive line, and one of the best running backs in the league in Jamal Lewis, and will continue to run even if they don't have immediate success. There is little worry of that taking place against the Cardinals, who have an incredibly small defensive front. The left side of the Ravens line has an 80 pound advantage when tackle Jonathan Ogden goes up against defensive end Calvin Pace. Next to Pace, Marcus Bell is filling in because of injury and is a tough player to move aside at 330 pounds. But while Bell normally requires a double team on running plays, guard Mulitalo is one of the biggest and strongest linemen around, and outweighs Bell as well.

Calivn! Lets see somethin' this weekend buddy!!!

Ogden is closer to 320 than 350. Pace is 270 right?

That's the problem another week against an elite LT would appear unlikely Pace will get a break this Sunday either.

Bryant says he'll play I sure hope he's healthy enough to make a difference inside that might allow some stunts and things to free up Calvin to Boller.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by Russ Smith
That's the problem another week against an elite LT would appear unlikely Pace will get a break this Sunday either.

Isn't that the problem? MOST teams in the league have an "elite" LT. That's why you need and "elite" pass rusher. It's nice to say, "Well, Calvin Pace, first-round draft pick, is good against middling and bad OTs," but that doesn't mean much. There aren't many teams with bad LTs: Atlanta, Chicago, Pittsburgh (maybe, Marvel Smith is injured)... That's about it. You're not going to rack up the stats against those teams all season long. The list of teams with Elite LTs is much longer.

 

[Pariah]

If most teams have an "elite" player at the same position, doesn't that, by definition, make them no longer "elite?"

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by kerouac9
Isn't that the problem? MOST teams in the league have an "elite" LT. That's why you need and "elite" pass rusher. It's nice to say, "Well, Calvin Pace, first-round draft pick, is good against middling and bad OTs," but that doesn't mean much. There aren't many teams with bad LTs: Atlanta, Chicago, Pittsburgh (maybe, Marvel Smith is injured)... That's about it. You're not going to rack up the stats against those teams all season long. The list of teams with Elite LTs is much longer.

You harp on this guy constantly...Can you maybe cut him some slack? He has played in all of 5 NFL games and WAS NOT going to start this year. Now he has been forced into action and admittedly played against 3 of the best Tackles in football in his first three games and all you do is bitch about his production.

He will, I repeat WILL be a very good DE in the league. His knock was that he needed some help with "NFL-Type" pass rush moves but that he is very atheltic, good motor, and intelligent. I havent seen anything yet to cause me to disagree with that assesment.

Granted with the Cards D-Line coaching it may take a little more time, but if you watch him during the games he is in the backfield alot, has made some tackles-for-loss, has put pressure on the QB a few times, and unlike some other DE's in the league, does actually play the run.

Dont you believe that at least part of his misfortune is being starpped with this d-line? I mean, in preseaosn he was a beast You dont think teams look at the Cards d-line and say, ok, they have no one on the line we need to concern ourselves with, lets double-team Pace with the RB or TE before going out in a route? They do, and if you notice, he is being chipped blocked all day long.

I gather you wanted Suggs etc, and maybe it was the better choice (neither of us know at this point) but how can you judge Pace (or Suggs for that matter ) after 5 NFL games??

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Pariah
If most teams have an "elite" player at the same position, doesn't that, by definition, make them no longer "elite?"

I was thinking that myself, but if we're only talking about quality of play, then you can have as many "USDA prime" steaks as you want, and the number of them doesn't change the fact that your Chateaubriand is still good. Y'know?

I separate "Top 5" from "Elite" in my rankings. The fact that 1/3 of the league has "Elite" running backs doesn't change the fact of how good R. Williams, L. Tomlinson, A. Green, P. Holmes, T. Henry, S. Davis, C. Portis, C. Garner, S. Alexander, and J. Lewis are. And I didn't even count William Green and Corey Dillion.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
And I didn't even count William Green and Corey Dillion.

Why in the world would you count William Green?

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
You harp on this guy constantly...Can you maybe cut him some slack? He has played in all of 5 NFL games and WAS NOT going to start this year. Now he has been forced into action and admittedly played against 3 of the best Tackles in football in his first three games and all you do is bitch about his production.

He will, I repeat WILL be a very good DE in the league. His knock was that he needed some help with "NFL-Type" pass rush moves but that he is very atheltic, good motor, and intelligent. I havent seen anything yet to cause me to disagree with that assesment.

Granted with the Cards D-Line coaching it may take a little more time, but if you watch him during the games he is in the backfield alot, has made some tackles-for-loss, has put pressure on the QB a few times, and unlike some other DE's in the league, does actually play the run.

Dont you believe that at least part of his misfortune is being starpped with this d-line? I mean, in preseaosn he was a beast You dont think teams look at the Cards d-line and say, ok, they have no one on the line we need to concern ourselves with, lets double-team Pace with the RB or TE before going out in a route? They do, and if you notice, he is being chipped blocked all day long.

I gather you wanted Suggs etc, and maybe it was the better choice (neither of us know at this point) but how can you judge Pace (or Suggs for that matter ) after 5 NFL games??

I wasn't sure on Suggs at the time, but I thought the reward was worth the risk, especially considering that we were going to essentially play a LB at DE if we'd gotten Rosie Colvin. Now, I think we should have taken Leftwich.

Regardless of whether or not Pace was SUPPOSED to start, he IS starting, and I expect starter production from starters, and Pace hasn't produced as a starter should. Has he gotten a little pressure? Yeah, but that pressure comes seven seconds after the ball has been snapped, and that's useless. You said that his first three games were against "3 of the best tackles in football". Well, what has he done in the last two games? Nothing. What's the excuse then?

I agree that the rest of the D-line is bad, but I DON'T see Calvin getting double-teams, I see him getting pushed 10 yards upfield by the offensive tackle and totally out of the play, every single passing down. That doesn't do a lot, especially after five games and, what, three months of practices? There are plenty of DEs in the league who put up good sack numbers without the benefit of a good supporting cast.

Once I see Pace demand a double-team, I'll give him some credit, but he's not getting double-teamed, and that just equates to not doing your job. He's not getting it done. We need defensive pressure now, not in Week 10 or 12. If he can't do it, get someone in there who can. I'm sure Dennis Johnson can get pushed 15 yards upfield.

 

[red desert]

Re: Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by kerouac9
Isn't that the problem? MOST teams in the league have an "elite" LT. That's why you need and "elite" pass rusher. It's nice to say, "Well, Calvin Pace, first-round draft pick, is good against middling and bad OTs," but that doesn't mean much. There aren't many teams with bad LTs: Atlanta, Chicago, Pittsburgh (maybe, Marvel Smith is injured)... That's about it. You're not going to rack up the stats against those teams all season long. The list of teams with Elite LTs is much longer.

Exactly.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Why in the world would you count William Green?

He's getting there. He gained 80 yards in the SECOND HALF against Pittsburgh last Sunday. He came on like Gangbusters in the end of last season. It probably wasn't necessary, but I wanted some more AFC North representation.

 

[Russ Smith]

Re: Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by kerouac9
Isn't that the problem? MOST teams in the league have an "elite" LT. That's why you need and "elite" pass rusher. It's nice to say, "Well, Calvin Pace, first-round draft pick, is good against middling and bad OTs," but that doesn't mean much. There aren't many teams with bad LTs: Atlanta, Chicago, Pittsburgh (maybe, Marvel Smith is injured)... That's about it. You're not going to rack up the stats against those teams all season long. The list of teams with Elite LTs is much longer.

Of course, and with exceptions most rookie DE's don't come in and dominate. For example Kearse set the rookie record playing more on the left side than the right.

That's why Peppers and Freeney were so impressive last year they were beating LT's all year.

I guess my point was if you asked me to name the top 3 LT's in the league in no order I'd have Ogden, Pace, Jones and we'll have played all 3 in the first 6 games.

AZCB34 was saying all through the preseason precisely what you said, most of Pace's sacks are coming against backups we need to see him against starting LT's.

If we had a dominant pass rusher I'd have no issue moving Calvin next year to LDE but right now he's our best RDE.

Point taken though there are no gimme's in the NFL for a RDE.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by kerouac9
I wasn't sure on Suggs at the time, but I thought the reward was worth the risk, especially considering that we were going to essentially play a LB at DE if we'd gotten Rosie Colvin. Now, I think we should have taken Leftwich.

Regardless of whether or not Pace was SUPPOSED to start, he IS starting, and I expect starter production from starters, and Pace hasn't produced as a starter should. Has he gotten a little pressure? Yeah, but that pressure comes seven seconds after the ball has been snapped, and that's useless. You said that his first three games were against "3 of the best tackles in football". Well, what has he done in the last two games? Nothing. What's the excuse then?

I agree that the rest of the D-line is bad, but I DON'T see Calvin getting double-teams, I see him getting pushed 10 yards upfield by the offensive tackle and totally out of the play, every single passing down. That doesn't do a lot, especially after five games and, what, three months of practices? There are plenty of DEs in the league who put up good sack numbers without the benefit of a good supporting cast.

Once I see Pace demand a double-team, I'll give him some credit, but he's not getting double-teamed, and that just equates to not doing your job. He's not getting it done. We need defensive
pressure now, not in Week 10 or 12. If he can't do it, get someone in there who can. I'm sure Dennis Johnson can get pushed 15 yards upfield.

You need to check the game and rewatch...I did not see the Seattle game, but against GB Green was chipping blocking him all day long. Against Detroit, the same thing was happening.

Either way, after 5 games, for you to say 'he isnt doing his job' is bordering on assinine. To say he is being pushed '10 yards upfield' is either A) you watching a different game or B) a personal vendetta aginst this draft pick...Im not sure which..either way, I think maybe you need to go rewatch the games....

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Why in the world would you count William Green?

or Charlie Garner??

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
or Charlie Garner??

Garner is still very good it's just that Trestman and Callahan can't make up their minds to use him. There's a big article in the SJ mercury today basically saying why the hell don't the Raiders give the ball to Garner more?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Garner is still very good it's just that Trestman and Callahan can't make up their minds to use him. There's a big article in the SJ mercury today basically saying why the hell don't the Raiders give the ball to Garner more?

I agree that he is good, but not elite...to me elite is:

Portis, A. Green, Williams, Lewis, Faulk (Healthy) and Priest Holmes...Garner would never be included in that list

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
You need to check the game and rewatch...I did not see the Seattle game, but against GB Green was chipping blocking him all day long. Against Detroit, the same thing was happening.

Either way, after 5 games, for you to say 'he isnt doing his job' is bordering on assinine. To say he is being pushed '10 yards upfield' is either A) you watching a different game or B) a personal vendetta aginst this draft pick...Im not sure which..either way, I think maybe you need to go rewatch the games....

I can't "re-watch" the games you mention because they were all blacked out!

I didn't see anyone "chip" Calvin Pace during the St. Louis game or the Dallas game. I haven't been to a regular-season game yet, so I can't comment, but I haven't heard a lot about him being "chipped" from anyone else on this board. I know from what I saw, he's getting ridden out of the play on the snap, and then works his way back in just in time for the quarterback to complete a 25-yarder. He's not getting consistent, early pressure on the QB to get him to release the ball before the WRs are out of their routes, and that's his job. Because he's not accomplishing that, he's not doing his job. Opponents don't put up a 100.9 QB rating (3rd worst in the league) because your pressure is so timely.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
I agree that he is good, but not elite...to me elite is:

Portis, A. Green, Williams, Lewis, Faulk (Healthy) and Priest Holmes...Garner would never be included in that list

Then replace him with Tiki Barber. See? There are a ton of them, but that doesn't make them any less elite.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ESPN Insider on Cards v. Ravens

Originally posted by kerouac9
I can't "re-watch" the games you mention because they were all blacked out!

I didn't see anyone "chip" Calvin Pace during the St. Louis game or the Dallas game. I haven't been to a regular-season game yet, so I can't comment, but I haven't heard a lot about him being "chipped" from anyone else on this board. I know from what I saw, he's getting ridden out of the play on the snap, and then works his way back in just in time for the quarterback to complete a 25-yarder. He's not getting consistent, early pressure on the QB to get him to release the ball before the WRs are out of their routes, and that's his job. Because he's not accomplishing that, he's not doing his job. Opponents don't put up a 100.9 QB rating (3rd worst in the league) because your pressure is so timely.

Cant comment on St.Louis, unfortunatly not able to watch it. Dallas I agree with you. The whole line (offense and defense) was manhandled that game and by far, was Pace's worst performance to date.

Make no mistake, I am not saying he is a world beater out there. I am saying he has applied more pressure than you think, and has doen a better job than you seem to want to give credit for. Yes the rest of the sadsack d-line has something to do with that as well. I cannot think of another team with less talent on the d-line that has a 'dominant' pass rusher...please let me know. Even bad teams still have another DT that can cause some probelms for the o-line, or at least a blitzing LB that can consistently rush the QB...this team has none of that! The Cards best chance at a sack is sending Wilson or Barrett from the secondary...sad but true...

I cannot help that what you have heard or not on this board...I can tell you that during the GB and Detroit games he was consitently getting blocked by the LT and the RB....Not sure why you would infer that I am making that up!

Anyway, to get to my point, I just think your expectations of this kid, this early, are unrealistic. Give him a chance to play. I can only think of a handful of rookie DE's that are that 'great' right out of the blocks. Most take time to develop and LEARN how to get their hands on the tackle first, and LEARN how to develop effective bull rushes, swim moves, etc to become better!

Cut him some slack, especially considering the circumstances...


EDIT: BTW It easy to say who you think the Cards SHOULD have drafted after the fact! For what it's worth, I for one, would have loved the Leftwich pick, but that is water under the bridge now.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Then replace him with Tiki Barber. See? There are a ton of them, but that doesn't make them any less elite.

Myabe I dont understand your post...yes Garner and Barber are good, but not elite. That was my point.

I think all the RB's you named do not fit with each other int hat category is all I am saying

 

[kerouac9]

LVCard, I'm just saying not to look at his production from that of a rookie, look at what you'd expect from a starting defensive end in the league, because that's what he is. If he's not good enough to start, then he shouldn't be starting. If he IS good enough to start, and doesn't produce like a starter, he's not doing his job.

Any starting end in this league who has no sacks, or even a sniff of one through five games isn't earning thier paycheck. Including Fred Wakefield.

How many rookie DEs that had success do you need? S. Rice, J. Kearse, J. Peppers, D. Freeney, T. Suggs*. Those are in the last five or six years. Besides, I'm not asking him to set the world on fire and be Rookie of the Year (though some were in the preseason), I'm asking for any kind of production, and I haven't seen it.

You don't count Ladanian Tomlinson or Corey Dillion as elite backs? Include those (who are deserving) to your list, and that's 25% of the league. How elite is that?

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by kerouac9
LVCard, I'm just saying not to look at his production from that of a rookie, look at what you'd expect from a starting defensive end in the league, because that's what he is. If he's not good enough to start, then he shouldn't be starting. If he IS good enough to start, and doesn't produce like a starter, he's not doing his job.

Any starting end in this league who has no sacks, or even a sniff of one through five games isn't earning thier paycheck. Including Fred Wakefield.

How many rookie DEs that had success do you need? S. Rice, J. Kearse, J. Peppers, D. Freeney, T. Suggs*. Those are in the last five or six years. Besides, I'm not asking him to set the world on fire and be Rookie of the Year (though some were in the preseason), I'm asking for any kind of production, and I haven't seen it.

I guess that's a good point about if you're starting you need to play like it.

For some, the knock on Pace is he's not Suggs and they wanted Suggs, I have decided that's not it with you.

If we'd taken Pace at 6 I'd be ripping him too but at 18 we were less likely to hit the lottery in year 1. Remember in an article on Suggs today someone(mac I think) said that we'd have taken Sullivan not Suggs at 6 if we hadn't traded down.

He's got 1 sack 6 tackles and 3 assists on a very poor defensive team. Robertson has been about the same 12 solos 0 sacks.

Suggs is really the only guy taken ahead of Pace who's outperforming him and that's just sacks.

I saw the first 3 games and Pace had hurries in every game. He twice nearly sacked Favre for example. The problem is the last 2 games he's been manhandled.

Nothing would make me happier than a win and 2 sacks from Calvin this week. Except maybe if we ran over Suggs everytime he was in the game, Jake throws 5 picks, gets into a shouting match with Sharpe and gets suspended by the Broncos, Boston gets mad at Brees during the game, grabs the sideline reporter and says on air "I can't do everything by myself, I'm getting tired of running patterns and not getting the ball, I'm taking myself out of the game now."

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
LVCard, I'm just saying not to look at his production from that of a rookie, look at what you'd expect from a starting defensive end in the league, because that's what he is. If he's not good enough to start, then he shouldn't be starting. If he IS good enough to start, and doesn't produce like a starter, he's not doing his job.

Any starting end in this league who has no sacks, or even a sniff of one through five games isn't earning thier paycheck. Including Fred Wakefield.

How many rookie DEs that had success do you need? S. Rice, J. Kearse, J. Peppers, D. Freeney, T. Suggs*. Those are in the last five or six years. Besides, I'm not asking him to set the world on fire and be Rookie of the Year (though some were in the preseason), I'm asking for any kind of production, and I haven't seen it.

You don't count Ladanian Tomlinson or Corey Dillion as elite backs? Include those (who are deserving) to your list, and that's 25% of the league. How elite is that?

So you make no discertion between a rookie starter and say Michael Strahan? WOW ...Ok, well I will never convince you otherwise. If you dont think Pace is doing any type of job, I would like to see anyone plugged into his position from the Cards (Johnson, Wakefield, King, etc) and do better...it wouldnt happen.

If you are arguing the Cards shouldnt be starting Pace and should instead start one of those guys-fine, although I doubt you will see any better production. (Especially from Wakefield who hasnt done anything at RDE in 2 years)

If you are arguing that he isnt a starter and the Cards should have soemone else, well he WASNT going to start this year, but those things happen! Right now he is a starter and SHOULDNT be anything than a situational pass rusher or a reserve until he learns the NFL game better....taking that part out of your equation just doesnt fly. It is part of it and needs to very much be considered. Thats why Kearse and Rice, and Freeney, were such rareties in this league with their production. (By the way none of which have any desire to play the run outside of a RB just falling in their lap)

You are saying ' if he isnt good enough to start he shouldnt be starting' well isnt that the point in this conversation? I am saying you need to put his productgion into perspective b4 writing him off after 5 games: he wasnt going to start, and he is doing more with what he has than anyone else would do in that situation.

EDIT: I would not put Dillon in the elite category for different reasons. Dillon doesnt score enough TD's and has too many 30-40 yard games then turns in a couple of 180-190 yards a game per seaons to get to his 1300 yards...and Tomlinson ypc although wasnt great his first 2 years, I might consider

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I guess that's a good point about if you're starting you need to play like it.

For some, the knock on Pace is he's not Suggs and they wanted Suggs, I have decided that's not it with you.

If we'd taken Pace at 6 I'd be ripping him too but at 18 we were less likely to hit the lottery in year 1. Remember in an article on Suggs today someone(mac I think) said that we'd have taken Sullivan not Suggs at 6 if we hadn't traded down.

He's got 1 sack 6 tackles and 3 assists on a very poor defensive team. Robertson has been about the same 12 solos 0 sacks.

Suggs is really the only guy taken ahead of Pace who's outperforming him and that's just sacks.

I saw the first 3 games and Pace had hurries in every game. He twice nearly sacked Favre for example. The problem is the last 2 games he's been manhandled.

Nothing would make me happier than a win and 2 sacks from Calvin this week. Except maybe if we ran over Suggs everytime he was in the game, Jake throws 5 picks, gets into a shouting match with Sharpe and gets suspended by the Broncos, Boston gets mad at Brees during the game, grabs the sideline reporter and says on air "I can't do everything by myself, I'm getting tired of running patterns and not getting the ball, I'm taking myself out of the game now."

And I would agree that taking Pace at #6 would be cause for uproar and me talking like K9 right now...But he is saying he is only considering Pace as a starter and that doesnt fly. Pace shouldnt be starting right now and wouldnt be starting right now if it wasnt for KVB's injury.

Take any other rookie (that wouldnt have started this year) throw him out there as a starter, line him up against 3 of the best tackles in football, and lets see how well he does...I am sure his production would not be good.

I think he will be good and improve immensley as the season progresses but just b/c he hasnt produced 8 sacks and 10 tackles-for-loss after 5 games should be no reason to harp on him continually.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
And I would agree that taking Pace at #6 would be cause for uproar and me talking like K9 right now...But he is saying he is only considering Pace as a starter and that doesnt fly. Pace shouldnt be starting right now and wouldnt be starting right now if it wasnt for KVB's injury.

Take any other rookie (that wouldnt have started this year) throw him out there as a starter, line him up against 3 of the best tackles in football, and lets see how well he does...I am sure his production would not be good.

I think he will be good and improve immensley as the season progresses but just b/c he hasnt produced 8 sacks and 10 tackles-for-loss after 5 games should be no reason to harp on him continually.

So aren't you essentially saying that if Pace were a "situational pass rusher" (ironically enough, a la Terrell Suggs) he'd be lighting the league on fire and have sacks, but because he's out there every down, he's not doing anything?

KGB was forced into every-down duty last year in Green Bay, and still put up big sack numbers while still helping out against the run.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Are you really saying that Pace wasn't drafted to start? Does that mean that Graves was really going to go into the season with KVB and Wakefield as our starters? If so - then Graves, well - you know the rest.

Andf to say Pace is getting QB hurries is ridiculkous - hurries should occur within 6 seconds of the ball being sacked - his almost one sack against Favre was fater seven seconds of standing in the pocket and then he could even wrap Favre up once he got him. I have nothing against Calvin Pace - nor do I want to see him fail, but so far he has been a complete non-factor.