ESPN Insider suggests....fasten your seat belts

[Mainstreet]

Every year we hear rumors like this and the real deal turns out to be something like:

Re-signed Nash for Perkins, Cook and the #28.

Considering Nash could walk for nothing, this would not be the end of the world.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And how has sinking their future in Johnson worked out for the Hawks?

considering they were one of the worst teams for a decade before they got him and within a couple years were a regular playoff team, not too bad. The problem isn't Joe Johnson... the problem is he's their BEST player and they were never able to get a number 1 to put next to him. No one's saying Harden should be the number 1, but I think he's taylor made to be a very good #2 and the bottom line is very good #2's are pretty much MAX players. Teams can afford two of those. i think Harden could be one of them.

and this isn't coming from some ASU honk, who loves because he was a home-town hero. I thought the Thunder were complete idiots when they made that pick, but he's proven me completely wrong as to his level of talent/grit on the court.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I would not be totally opposed to trading Gortat, but he is an effective big and those command a premium.

The surest way to go out of business in any area is to undervalue your own assets. Teams that are close to a championship typically overpay for the missing piece. In this case, OKC cannot get Nash without a trade (cap reasons), and Nash has the reasonable possibility of bringing home the hardware for them. So they are the ones who should overpay.

jmo

I don't get why OKC can't get Nash without a trade. If Nash WANTS to actually win a title, he's going to have to take a MLE to do it because none of the contenders have salary cap room. And just what exactly do you see Nash getting on the open market from a non-contender? Why would they bring him in?

And Nash has the reasonable possibility of bringing home the hardware for them? That team just accomplished something together in 3 years that Nash hasn't been able to accomplish in his entire career, even when he's had HCA multiple times. They got to a Finals. Me thinks he needs them a lot more than they need him. Whatever Nash's offense would bring to OKC would be negated by his deficiencies on defense, not to mention taking the ball out of Westbrook's hands... which makes no sense.

If Harden had played even half as well as he had been playing, the Thunder would still be playing in this series. He buckled under the pressure. Young kids do that. But taking the ball out of Westbrook and Durant's hands by bringing in a guy who dominates the ball... and is old... and can't play defense... and has been injury prone... just makes very little sense to me the more i think about it.

Nash isn't the missing piece for that team... they just got the missing piece. It's called experience.

 

[overseascardfan]

I feel that the Suns should ship off everyone in seperate deals and in each deal get a 1st rounder and a player on an expiring deal.

Problem is other than Gortat everyone on the roster isn't highly valued. Even the market for Steve Nash will be limited because all this year's playoff teams have young PG's and really don't need Nash.

I wonder if HOU would trade #14, #16 & Daly for Gortat. HOU is already pretty young so dealing the picks shouldn't hurt them and Gortat would be a nice complement to Camby if they keep him.

The best trade partner for PHX would be ORL for Steve Nash. Maybe Howard would re-sign if they land Nash. Maybe have to take JJ Reddick but maybe we can get Daniel Orton and #19 in addition to a bad contract.

The only other player PHX has that could draw interest is Dudley but it would probably be best to keep him. Maybe PHX can buy #27 from MIA as they will want room to try and keep Big 3 together or re-sign Chalmers.

If these moves happen we end up with Reddick, Daly, #14, #16, #17 and maybe Orton leaving a lineup of:

C - Daly / Lopez / #27 (Fab Melo)*
PF - Morris / Frye / Orton / #19 (Terrence Jones)*
SF - Dudley / Warrick / #16 (Perry Jones)*
SG - Reddick / Childress / #13 (Dion Waiters)*
PG - Telfair / #14 (Marquis Teague)*

* = NBA Draft Net projected availability

This team would probably win 20 - 25 games at the most and we would end up in the lottery in 2013 with a shot at Noel Nerlens or Shabazz Muhammed and continue to rebuild. It took OKC 3 years to become a powerhouse, we need to follow that model

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't get why OKC can't get Nash without a trade. If Nash WANTS to actually win a title, he's going to have to take a MLE to do it because none of the contenders have salary cap room. And just what exactly do you see Nash getting on the open market from a non-contender? Why would they bring him in?.

Its becoming pretty clear that Nash will not take the MLE. The Suns have already said they would be willing to work out a sign and trade for Nash. That gives Nash negotiating power with every team he talks to. He can ask for more and if the team wants him, they will find a way to sign and trade to make the numbers work.

Its brilliant really. The Suns get something in return and Nash gets his money. He doesn't care about younger players or picks with the new team because by the time they are a factor, he will be retired.

If Nash goes to Toronto, which makes alot of sense, a s&t is not necessary.

 

[elindholm]

IMO, fairly well. They regularly make the playoffs and have a star player. Not bad where they were coming from before Joe Johnson.

I think it worked out pretty well actually if you look at where they were when they signed him originally.

But this is exactly what we've complained about with the Suns for as long as I can remember -- being good enough to earn a mid playoff seed, but not a real threat in the playoffs, and with no potential for getting to the next level. I keep reading on this board, championship championship championship. Well you ain't winning a championship with Johnson or Harden as your #1, or even as your #2 unless your #1 is the best player in the league.

It's much, much easier to construct a 50-win team than it is to construct a contender. And fans of every 50-win team think they are "close" so long as they catch the right set of magic circumstances, but in fact it almost never works out that way. (The 2004 Pistons and the 2011 Mavericks are the only examples from the last 15 years.) If the Suns want to build another 50-and-fade team, then they might as well keep Nash and add role players. If they're rebuilding and the goal is to compete for a title, installing someone like Harden or Joe Johnson as the new face of the franchise is just silly and doomed to failure.

 

[elindholm]

If Nash WANTS to actually win a title, he's going to have to take a MLE to do it because none of the contenders have salary cap room. And just what exactly do you see Nash getting on the open market from a non-contender? Why would they bring him in?

Posted today on Slam Online (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/06/qa-steve-nash):

"I would love to win a Championship, yes, but I’m not one of those people who believe I must win one to have a fulfilling career, so other factors, such as salary, family, playing time, and opportunity for team success all factor in."

I think the translation is, "I'm not taking the MLE just to go to a contender."

 

[SunsTzu]

am I the only one who thinks that comparing him to Joe Johnson is not undervaluing at all. If he is Joe Johnson this is a no-brainer... it would be a no-brainer for us. This is one of those threads I just can't stay away from even though I still think it's just nonsense. I'll be absolutely shocked if OKC does anything this summer with their big three and Ibaka.

Joe

Perhaps I should have been more clear but it wasn't the comparison to JJ that I thought was undervaluing Harden but the comparison to Gortat's value. I just was pointing out that Harden's and JJ's situations are not quite the same(Suns were already paying big money to Nash, Marion was making a ridiculous amount and Amare was about to get his max contract).


I do think Harden at this point is better than JJ was at the time. Harden has played and developed more consistently and I think he was a better player this year than JJ was his last year with the Suns.

 

[Mainstreet]

But this is exactly what we've complained about with the Suns for as long as I can remember -- being good enough to earn a mid playoff seed, but not a real threat in the playoffs, and with no potential for getting to the next level. I keep reading on this board, championship championship championship. Well you ain't winning a championship with Johnson or Harden as your #1, or even as your #2 unless your #1 is the best player in the league.

It's much, much easier to construct a 50-win team than it is to construct a contender. And fans of every 50-win team think they are "close" so long as they catch the right set of magic circumstances, but in fact it almost never works out that way. (The 2004 Pistons and the 2011 Mavericks are the only examples from the last 15 years.) If the Suns want to build another 50-and-fade team, then they might as well keep Nash and add role players. If they're rebuilding and the goal is to compete for a title, installing someone like Harden or Joe Johnson as the new face of the franchise is just silly and doomed to failure.

I'm thinking the Suns are very close to where Atlanta was before signing Joe Johnson... they need a star to start rebuilding. Acquiring Harden would be only the first move. Unfortunately the Suns may choose to be just a 50 win team. The Suns need a owner and FO whose only goal is a Championship. That is the only way it is going to happen. I'm not sure going after a player like Harden is the right move anyhow because the Thunder are in the driver's seat.

 

[mojorizen7]

And Nash has the reasonable possibility of bringing home the hardware for them? That team just accomplished something together in 3 years that Nash hasn't been able to accomplish in his entire career, even when he's had HCA multiple times. They got to a Finals. Me thinks he needs them a lot more than they need him. Whatever Nash's offense would bring to OKC would be negated by his deficiencies on defense, not to mention taking the ball out of Westbrook's hands... which makes no sense.

But taking the ball out of Westbrook and Durant's hands by bringing in a guy who dominates the ball... and is old... and can't play defense... and has been injury prone... just makes very little sense to me the more i think about it.

+1
But hey...teams on the cusp of winning a title have made stupid moves before.

 

[elindholm]

I'm thinking the Suns are very close to where Atlanta was before signing Joe Johnson... they need a star to start rebuilding. Acquiring Harden would be only the first move. Unfortunately the Suns may choose to be just a 50 win team.

My point is that if you start your rebuild with Harden or Joe Johnson as a cornerstone and no other significant assets, you are dooming yourself to 50-and-fade, just as has happened with the Hawks.

 

[sunsfan88]

Those arnt pick and pop players. Westbrook and Durant both need the ball in their hands to be effective, and not by catching and shooting. They both create their own opportunities. Nash does not fit the style of Westbrook. He could play with Durant, but having both Nash and Westbrook is superfluous. They cant both have the ball and both need to to be effective.

Nash is no guarantee to make them better even in the short term. It forces their 2nd best player out of position, it dramatically hurts them on defense, and at this point in his career how much better is he really going to make that offense? Their role players already get tons of open looks, Durant is as efficient as he could be, I firmly believe adding Nash only diminishes Westbrook. OKC already proved their current roster can contend, they've gone deeper than Nash ever has, the only guaranteed effect Nash has is he makes them worse defensively and probably shortens their title window by several years. Anything positive he might contribute is not a guarantee.

People said the same exact things about LeBron and Wade yet they made it work didn't they? If teams want to win a championship badly enough, they will make adjustments to their game to win it. And Westbrook is still an elite defender so it doesn't necessarily make them worse defensively. Plus Gortat is also MUCH better defender in the paint than Perkins. Gives them some much needed size.

And their role players AND their superstar players would get a ton more open looks with Nash. Steve makes anybody and everybody around him better....Durant is already an amazing player, imagine him being better? Yea exactly.

If you think adding Nash to OKC doesn't improve them, then I don't know what to say to that cause IMO that's an obvious thing.

Something you guys need to sink in is that Nash is a free agent, no one is going to give up high value for a player they could sign for the MLE. There is absolute ZERO chance this trade happens.

Response to that is...

Its becoming pretty clear that Nash will not take the MLE. The Suns have already said they would be willing to work out a sign and trade for Nash. That gives Nash negotiating power with every team he talks to. He can ask for more and if the team wants him, they will find a way to sign and trade to make the numbers work.

Its brilliant really. The Suns get something in return and Nash gets his money. He doesn't care about younger players or picks with the new team because by the time they are a factor, he will be retired.

If Nash goes to Toronto, which makes alot of sense, a s&t is not necessary.

 

[Mainstreet]

My point is that if you start your rebuild with Harden or Joe Johnson as a cornerstone and no other significant assets, you are dooming yourself to 50-and-fade, just as has happened with the Hawks.

If Horford could stay healthy and become the dominant big man that many on this board envisioned, it could and may turn out well for the Hawks not that any team is ready to dethrone Lebron. The Hawks need for Teague to continue his development and they also need to add some quality role players. It is not a bad model. They have some good talent with Horford, Smith, Johnson and Teague.

 

[JCSunsfan]

My point is that if you start your rebuild with Harden or Joe Johnson as a cornerstone and no other significant assets, you are dooming yourself to 50-and-fade, just as has happened with the Hawks.

Yes. Both players are good, but I don't see either player as the 1st option on a championship team--2nd or 3rd maybe yes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But this is exactly what we've complained about with the Suns for as long as I can remember -- being good enough to earn a mid playoff seed, but not a real threat in the playoffs, and with no potential for getting to the next level. I keep reading on this board, championship championship championship. Well you ain't winning a championship with Johnson or Harden as your #1, or even as your #2 unless your #1 is the best player in the league.

It's much, much easier to construct a 50-win team than it is to construct a contender. And fans of every 50-win team think they are "close" so long as they catch the right set of magic circumstances, but in fact it almost never works out that way. (The 2004 Pistons and the 2011 Mavericks are the only examples from the last 15 years.) If the Suns want to build another 50-and-fade team, then they might as well keep Nash and add role players. If they're rebuilding and the goal is to compete for a title, installing someone like Harden or Joe Johnson as the new face of the franchise is just silly and doomed to failure.

that's why he wouldn't be the FACE of the franchise. He'd be the number 2 and a pretty damn good one IMO. And even if he's a number 3, pretty much ALL of the best teams have THREE big contract players and the rest are role players. You gotta start somewhere and Harden would be a good place IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes. Both players are good, but I don't see either player as the 1st option on a championship team--2nd or 3rd maybe yes.

again, he doesn't NEED to be the #1 player and I don't ANYONE is looking at him as such. but I think he can be a VERY GOOD, with the possibility of being GREAT #2 and a beyond words a dynamite 3. look around the league... the best teams have three players with HUGE contracts and the rest are role players. We gotta start somewhere.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Its becoming pretty clear that Nash will not take the MLE. The Suns have already said they would be willing to work out a sign and trade for Nash. That gives Nash negotiating power with every team he talks to. He can ask for more and if the team wants him, they will find a way to sign and trade to make the numbers work.

he's got no leverage because teams have no money... and no one's gonna give up a ton to get a guy who's 38 years old and injury prone and on the downside of his career. and the Thunder sure as hell aren't going to give up a potential superstar for Nash. That's just not going to happen. even with the suns saying they're willing to sign and trade, that DOESN'T mean another team will be willing to do the same, especially if they have to give up major pieces to do it. He's got limited options. That's the reality of it.

Its brilliant really. The Suns get something in return and Nash gets his money.

yeah... it's brilliant for us and Nash, but makes very little sense for the other team making the deal.

He doesn't care about younger players or picks with the new team because by the time they are a factor, he will be retired.

If Nash goes to Toronto, which makes alot of sense, a s&t is not necessary.

the only reason going to Toronto makes a lot of sense is if nash cares more about money than winning and if that's the case, well, good luck to him. if i were another team and nash threatened to go play for the worst team in the league unless that team signed and traded major pieces for him, I'd laugh in his face and say: "okay... If you want to actually win a title, give us a call. if not, take your money and be miserable for the rest of your career. Good luck."

 

[Cheesebeef]

Posted today on Slam Online (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/06/qa-steve-nash):

"I would love to win a Championship, yes, but I’m not one of those people who believe I must win one to have a fulfilling career, so other factors, such as salary, family, playing time, and opportunity for team success all factor in."

I think the translation is, "I'm not taking the MLE just to go to a contender."

than enjoy playing for the Raptors Steve Nash... maybe the Pacers. I think he'd actually be a GREAT fit there. they desperately need a leader on that club and a PG and actually have salary cap room.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My point is that if you start your rebuild with Harden or Joe Johnson as a cornerstone and no other significant assets, you are dooming yourself to 50-and-fade, just as has happened with the Hawks.

do you know why the Hawks ended up being a 50 and fade team? because they were IDIOTS AFTER they signed JJ. they had JJ, Josh Smith and Horford and were in a DESPERATE situation at PG... staring at Chris Paul and Deron Williams... and took Marvin freaking Williams.

you put either of those guys on that team and they're a perenial title contender, especially in the East and especially if they picked Paul.

the key is making the right moves AFTER signing Harden. We'd still be terrible next year even with him which means when we got our shot in the lotto next year, we'd just have to make the right pick instead of going Marvin Williams. THAT pick is what doomed the Hawks. Not JJ's contract.

 

[sunsfan88]

I'd laugh in his face and say: "okay... If you want to actually win a title, give us a call. if not, take your money and be miserable for the rest of your career. Good luck."

Your kidding right? Nash has said several times that he will still view his career as a "success" even if he doesn't win a championship. Whenever he feels lonely, I'm sure those TWO MVPs will make him feel better.

So yea **** with your "miserable" talk.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Your kidding right? Nash has said several times that he will still view his career as a "success" even if he doesn't win a championship. Whenever he feels lonely, I'm sure those TWO MVPs will make him feel better.

So yea **** with your "miserable" talk.

lol... you think would be HAPPY in Toronto playing with a terrible team? newsflash folks... Nash can say whatever he wants, but his "i don't need to chase a ring" thing is talk and posturing for negotiations. i mean... Nash wasn't happy THIS season... or LAST season with a team that didn't make the playoffs.

he made that clear questioning the front office and talking about playing somewhere else. you know WHY he was unhappy? because the guy WANTS to win. He just also wants to get paid. and I think he's gonna find out right quick that he's going to have to sacrifice one of those things if he wants the other.

it's the height of naivete to believe that Nash wouldn't be MISERABLE with a bad team and those are the only teams who have cash to offer him money... thus, his options are limited.

this isn't rocket science.

 

[sunsfan88]

lol... you think would be HAPPY in Toronto playing with a terrible team? newsflash folks... Nash can say whatever he wants, but his "i don't need to chase a ring" thing is talk and posturing for negotiations. i mean... Nash wasn't happy THIS season... or LAST season with a team that didn't make the playoffs.

he made that clear questioning the front office and talking about playing somewhere else. you know WHY he was unhappy? because the guy WANTS to win. He just also wants to get paid. and I think he's gonna find out right quick that he's going to have to sacrifice one of those things if he wants the other.

it's the height of naivete to believe that Nash wouldn't be MISERABLE with a bad team and those are the only teams who have cash to offer him money... thus, his options are limited.

this isn't rocket science.

Maybe its more about winning or money. Maybe its about pride...he's from Canada and he perhaps wants to finish up his career there.

Either way its ridiculous to say that someone will be "miserable" because they haven't won a championship. Even though, its a different sport, I want you to go check out LT's retirement ceremony where he said that he's happy even though he's never won a championship because he's had championship type like memories where he set the record for most TDs in a single season, won league MVP, beating the Raiders 11 straight times etc.

Just like that, I'm sure Nash has many too.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe its more about winning or money. Maybe its about pride...he's from Canada and he perhaps wants to finish up his career there.

Either way its ridiculous to say that someone will be "miserable" because they haven't won a championship.

good GOD... I'm not saying will be miserable because he doesn't eventually win a title. i'm saying that if he goes to Toronto, he'll be miserable playing his last couple years on a terrible team. Again, we've already seen him talk about being unhappy playing on the current suns team because he thinks ownership has bungled things.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Nash/Gortat for Harden/Ibaka?

This frees us up to draft a PG, which seems to be the most abundant of the top available players for our pick and we can worry about a C or a PF/C next year....

#1/Harden/Dudley/Ibaka/Lopez

We'd probably be somewhere between #9 and #13 next year....

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Or, let Harden run point for this season and draft PJIII:

Harden-Dudley-PJIII-Ibaka-Lopez