ESPN on Cardinals' Decision-makers

[football karma]

A couple thoughts that dont fit neatly into the very black or white world of Graves stinks / Graves is competent:

1. Recent successes in the draft have as much or more to do with Steve Keim running scouting as Denny Green. The guy is considered in the NFL (so I am told) to be very bright.

Now good rankings dont prevent making a bad trade (see 2003), but the base data the decision makers use now to decide who to pick, and when, is way better than it used to be.

2. As to the decision to not franchise Big with an eye towards trading him -- that was more a Bidwill decision in that the NFL strongly discourages the use of the franchise tag to simply to trade a player -- and the Bidwills follow those things to the letter. Some teams follow, some teams skirt the rule -- but like it or not, the Cardinals are one of those teams that follow.

 

[Capital Card]

Have you not paid any attention to the drafts from years 1990-2003?

14 years of ineptitude will make anyone have doubts. Since we know that Green was in control of our drafts, it is not hard to see why some would want his expertise around during draft time.

George Boone has left the scouting department and was far more responsible for the drafts prior to 2004 than any other individual.

I place a lot higer value on the analysis Steve Keim will be feeding to Rod Graves than anyone we've had in scouting for as long as I've followed the team.

Rod also benefits from three years of working with Denny in preparing for the draft. That's a fairly respectable mentoring time frame for him to learn from.

It's a bit early for the torches and pitchforks, IMO.

Go Cards!!!

 

[CardLogic]

George Boone has left the scouting department and was far more responsible for the drafts prior to 2004 than any other individual.

I place a lot higer value on the analysis Steve Keim will be feeding to Rod Graves than anyone we've had in scouting for as long as I've followed the team.

Rod also benefits from three years of working with Denny in preparing for the draft. That's a fairly respectable mentoring time frame for him to learn from.

It's a bit early for the torches and pitchforks, IMO.

Go Cards!!!

Graves bashers always seem to forget about George Boone's role with the Cardinals.

 

[40yearfan]

Graves bashers always seem to forget about George Boone's role with the Cardinals.

It takes away from the Graves bashing so we just ignore that little fact.

 

[BigRedArk]

Graves can silence all of his critics (me included) when he starts making wise and prudent decisions most of the time as to which players to keep, add, and let go. If and when that happens it should give a good HC a chance to put a winning team on the field. I predict all of the criticism of him will cease then. Until then it is fair.

 

[Zeno]

Graves can silence all of his critics (me included) when he starts making wise and prudent decisions most of the time as to which players to keep, add, and let go. If and when that happens it should give a good HC a chance to put a winning team on the field. I predict all of the criticism of him will cease then. Until then it is fair.

Absolutely 100% correct, this isn't like its Graves first year with the team its not like we have nothing to base this on, he has failed thus far he doesn't deserve any slack, if he can fix this mess then he'll get the credit he deserves. Unlike a lot of people around here, I don't believe Cardinal management is infallible, the record speaks for itself, improve that and make all of us a lot happier.

Because I don't want to be a fan who has to spend his entire life with one playoff appearance for his favorite team. Excuse me if I call in to question moves that I don't exactly think help this team, if they are right and I am wrong I have absolutely no problem admitting it...but as of now its put up or shut up.

 

[Heucrazy]

Absolutely 100% correct, this isn't like its Graves first year with the team its not like we have nothing to base this on, he has failed thus far he doesn't deserve any slack, if he can fix this mess then he'll get the credit he deserves. Unlike a lot of people around here, I don't believe Cardinal management is infallible, the record speaks for itself, improve that and make all of us a lot happier.

Because I don't want to be a fan who has to spend his entire life with one playoff appearance for his favorite team. Excuse me if I call in to question moves that I don't exactly think help this team, if they are right and I am wrong I have absolutely no problem admitting it...but as of now its put up or shut up.

So are you willing to even give Whiz the chance to "put up or shut up". Or are you like some of the others who have already condemed him and written off the draft and the season on April 12th?

 

[kerouac9]

So are you willing to even give Whiz the chance to "put up or shut up". Or are you like some of the others who have already condemed him and written off the draft and the season on April 12th?

Whis has control over who plays. Graves has control over who's on the roster. Based on what we know about each area, both have failing grades at worst and incompletes at best.

Whis starts in a hole because he was hired by incompetent people.

 

[Heucrazy]

Whis has control over who plays. Graves has control over who's on the roster.

BS. Do you honestly think that Whiz has no control or say over who the Cards take in the draft?

Based on what we know about each area, both have failing grades at worst and incompletes at best.

Whis starts in a hole because he was hired by incompetent people.

Whiz starts in a hole because of who hired him?

 

[kerouac9]

BS. Do you honestly think that Whiz has no control or say over who the Cards take in the draft?






Whiz starts in a hole because of who hired him?

Well, those smilies make a pretty convincing argument. I'd probably been more inclined to agree with the first statement if you'd added a couple more.

Whis has input into whom the Cards take in the draft, but Rod Graves makes the final decision.

Yes, I've said it for a long while: Because of Rod Graves' rate of failure as an executive, all of his decisions should be judged as being wrong until otherwise shown to be correct. That's the way it is.

Even though I don't agree with the decisions that Chargers' GM A.J. Smith makes, he's earned the respect that every decision he makes is right until shown otherwise. That's why I'm not going to pile on with everyone else over Schottenheimer getting fired.

Respect is something that's earned, not given. Graves needs more people.

EDIT: Heu, if you don't believe me that Graves is the triggerman on personnel, you should think about reading the first post in this thread. But maybe SI has a photo spread or something that you'd rather believe.

 

[Zeno]

So are you willing to even give Whiz the chance to "put up or shut up". Or are you like some of the others who have already condemed him and written off the draft and the season on April 12th?

I think Whisenhunt is starting with a disadvantage due to who he works for. If Whisenhunt is able to overcome this with superior coaching great. I'm willing to give Whisenhunt 3 years, we gave Green and that idiot McGinnis that long.

Graves on the other hand has 1 year to improve our personnel, he has been here too long to not answer for his failings.

If I hear another "we are not just a couple players away" speech from him and he isn't canned then we know ownership doesn't care. If that isn't a GM admitting his failures I don't know what is.

 

[Stout]

With the 5th overall pick in the 2007 NFL Draft, the Arizona Cardinals select Brian Boitano.


_

What would Brian Boitono do, if we were on the clock,
He'd pick an all pro or two, that's what Brian Boitano'd do.
When Joe Thomas, AP and Brown were taken before us,
Brian Boitano took some schmuch projected for the 7th round,
Then he became our new left tackle, anchoring our line,
And Brian Boitano's the new GM, 'cause that's what Brian Boitano'd do.

 

[abomb]

What would Brian Boitono do, if we were on the clock,
He'd pick an all pro or two, that's what Brian Boitano'd do.
When Joe Thomas, AP and Brown were taken before us,
Brian Boitano took some schmuch projected for the 7th round,
Then he became our new left tackle, anchoring our line,
And Brian Boitano's the new GM, 'cause that's what Brian Boitano'd do.

 

[Heucrazy]

Well, those smilies make a pretty convincing argument. I'd probably been more inclined to agree with the first statement if you'd added a couple more.

They work. They're must faster than typing out "you're crazy and just bitching to bitch".

Whis has input into whom the Cards take in the draft, but Rod Graves makes the final decision.

Yes, I've said it for a long while: Because of Rod Graves' rate of failure as an executive, all of his decisions should be judged as being wrong until otherwise shown to be correct. That's the way it is.

Even though I don't agree with the decisions that Chargers' GM A.J. Smith makes, he's earned the respect that every decision he makes is right until shown otherwise. That's why I'm not going to pile on with everyone else over Schottenheimer getting fired.

Respect is something that's earned, not given. Graves needs more people.

EDIT: Heu, if you don't believe me that Graves is the triggerman on personnel, you should think about reading the first post in this thread. But maybe SI has a photo spread or something that you'd rather believe.

Maybe you should go back and re-read that article yourself. Maybe this time around you'll actually notice were its says words like "likely will shift back to the FO." And that Whis would be wise to take control himself. Never once does it say that Graves IS the man in charge. It says that it is LIKELY. So if you base your doom and gloom attitude off of likely's and maybes then there really is no arguing with you. Especially when you condem things like the draft and the season before they even happen off of "likelys" and "maybes".


And why am I not surprised that you think ESPN is crediable but SI is not? Whouldn't have anything to do with the ESPN article agreeing with you and the SI article not agreeing with you now would it?

 

[Heucrazy]

I think Whisenhunt is starting with a disadvantage due to who he works for. If Whisenhunt is able to overcome this with superior coaching great. I'm willing to give Whisenhunt 3 years, we gave Green and that idiot McGinnis that long.

Graves on the other hand has 1 year to improve our personnel, he has been here too long to not answer for his failings.

If I hear another "we are not just a couple players away" speech from him and he isn't canned then we know ownership doesn't care. If that isn't a GM admitting his failures I don't know what is.

I don't like Graves either. But to basically act like Whis is going to fail and that the draft is already ruined on April 12th seems a little out there.

 

[kerouac9]

Hey, if you don't think that Rod Graves is the man in charge of personnel, and the guy who has final say, perhaps you should check out his job description:

Rod Graves begins his 10th season with the Cardinals and his 23rd season in the National Football League. Graves joined the Cardinals in June of 1997 as Assistant to the President. He was promoted to the position of Vice President of Football Operations following the 2002 season.

Graves, 47, is responsible for all facets of the Cardinals’ football operations. He has provided leadership in hiring, planning, budgeting, player acquisitions, negotiations, and scouting. He has represented the Cardinals on a number of NFL committees. He currently serves on the board of directors of National Football Scouting, Inc. and National Invitational Camp, Inc. (Indy Combine).

Consistent with the Cardinals efforts to become champions in the community, Rod and his wife Dreama, devote their time and resources to supporting Cardinals Charities, The United Way, and The American Diabetes Association.

A native of Houston, Texas, Rod began his career in professional football in 1982 as a regional scout for the Philadelphia Stars of the United States Football League. He joined the National Football League in 1984 as a regional scout for the Chicago Bears, a position he held until promoted to director of college scouting in 1993. He was promoted in 1994 to director of player personnel.

Rod is a graduate of Texas Tech University. He is also the son of the late Jackie Graves, former player personnel executive of the Philadelphia Eagles.

Rod and Dreama reside in Phoenix with their three children: daughters, Brittany & Taylor and son Joshua.

But, you know, you don't have to believe that. Or believe Rod when he says that he's the guy in charge of personnel decisions at the press conference when they announce his extention. Or Michael Bidwill when he says the exact same thing.

Believe what you want to believe.

 

[Fiasco]

Believe what you want to believe.

It's working for you so far.

 

[BigRedRage]

I rock.

 

[40yearfan]

Graves can silence all of his critics (me included) when he starts making wise and prudent decisions most of the time as to which players to keep, add, and let go. If and when that happens it should give a good HC a chance to put a winning team on the field. I predict all of the criticism of him will cease then. Until then it is fair.

So you don't like the players we've extended or the free agents we've picked up the last 3 years?

 

[40yearfan]

Hey, if you don't think that Rod Graves is the man in charge of personnel, and the guy who has final say, perhaps you should check out his job description:



But, you know, you don't have to believe that. Or believe Rod when he says that he's the guy in charge of personnel decisions at the press conference when they announce his extention. Or Michael Bidwill when he says the exact same thing.

Believe what you want to believe.

Yes and according to you everything bad that has happened player personnel wise is Graves fault and everything good that happened is Green's fault.

BTW, the article you are posting is Graves position now. You keep wanting to go back to the period before he was vice-president and blaming everything on Graves because it fits your agenda better.

Who hired James? Who extended Bolding, Dockett and all our other young athletes instead of letting them leave after their original signing. You were one of the people complaining longest and loudest about us letting all our good players go, but you refuse to give Graves credit for reversing that trend and resigning those players before their contracts were up.

What about our drafts the past 3 years? Do you truly believe it was Green and Green alone who made the decisions on who to draft?

 

[BigRedArk]

So you don't like the players we've extended or the free agents we've picked up the last 3 years?

Yeah I like most of them. I liked getting Edge especially. I am not sure how much this was Graves or DG though. I know for sure extending Raynoch Thompson and not KVB was a dumb decision. I guess I should cut him some slack on KVB and DG was HC as well at that time.

We didn't even make an offer to Big which was dumb. Graves extended LJ Shelton but not Big. Huh. That was a good decision. Of the two who would you have chosen? Now we have a hole at LT and a franchise QB in only his second year. I sense a genuine vulnerability.

I don't like Calvin Pace or Bryant Johnson. Boldin and Hayes were good picks. Tony Gilbert is now getting a lot of playing time with the Jags. Seems like we are a little thin at LB right now. Tony might be a help there if we had him. I guess RG didn't haven't any say on if he should be put on the practice squad instead of the regular roster so he wouldn't have been picked off by the Jags huh?

The bigger point is that until he starts making solid decisions to keep and add the right players for his coach and gives that coach a better chance to put a winning team on the field it is fair to criticize him. No one is wrong all the time and that includes Graves. I expect him to be right more often than he is wrong. So far he hasn't been hence the losing records of the team since he has been on board as VP.

 

[football karma]

No question that Graves is in charge --

arguably, this year Graves has responsibility for the first time in his tenure with the Cardinals.

As many have wrote before, the real power structure around Cardinal land changes from time to time -- Graves started as an assistant to Bill Sr handling contracts and the like.

During the Mac era, MAc had a ton of sway with the old man, so Graves had input but not final say.

With the stadium, Mike B gained alot of traction in terms of power, and he had a lot of faith in Denny. Rod had lots of input, but Denny is so persuasive and headstrong, Graves and Mike B generally gave Denny what he asked for.

Rod now is in charge, in part, to bring family peace between Mike B and Bill Jr. He is the neutral party that Bill Sr trusts.

He also is a loyal guy who has taken many a public whipping in place of the family, and that is definately valued by the old man.

Graves is also a consensus builder (which was probably a problem with a guy like Denny), so he will listen to Wis, Grimm, et al as well as scouts and the like.

I dont know if Graves is any good or not -- historically there have been so many cooks in the kitchen over there that its hard to seperate who is responsible for what.

The one benefit I see is that the old man trusts Graves. So Graves will the freedom to do stuff that it would take several years for a newcomer (no matter how well regarded) to earn. Sad but true.

 

[SECTION 11]

Let's face it. Based on his track record (wins and loses) Rod Graves is a total failure.
Not saying he can't or won't do better, but up until now he's been horrible.

 

[Skkorpion]

The report that Graves doesn't watch film is a lie. The entire scouting department is and has been Rod Graves' doing. He completely revamped it the last 4 years. If they screw up, it's on Graves.

Denny Green did not put the draft board together. Graves, Green and the scouting department all did the last 3 years. Green did very little scouting or film work. The final board was Graves'. All the busts were on Graves.

Letting Davis go is on Graves.

You are, of course, free to believe what you wish. Graves is a consensus builder. He believes in letting the scouts do their work and expects them to perform well.

As a GM (in responsibility, not in title), he believes it's his job to get the kinds of players the coaching staff wants for their schemes. Other GMs operate differently, choosing to exercise total control over player selection.

Denny Green is an ESPN guy, having been employed by them. Rod Graves is not and will never defend himself publicly.

If we have a bad draft this year, it's on Graves because ultimately, the choice to give underlings extra say is his. It's ALL on Graves now. Michael has given him that kind of power.

The selection of Whisenhunt is on Graves (ultimately, all owners have final say on coach selections). And for those of you who think I always defend Graves, you must have read my many posts that I'm not particularly pleased with Whisenhunt as coach. I wanted Norm Chow.

Graves has forced us into a three year rebuild, in my opinion. And I don't like it.

But the reports that Graves shirks the basics of his job are lies. In the end, you need to choose who to believe, me and nidan, or the media bashers who don't really know what goes on in the Cards front office because the Cards are so secretive.

 

[kerouac9]

And for those of you who think I always defend Graves, you must have read my many posts that I'm not particularly pleased with Whisenhunt as coach. I wanted Norm Chow.

Graves has forced us into a three year rebuild, in my opinion. And I don't like it.

But the reports that Graves shirks the basics of his job are lies. In the end, you need to choose who to believe, me and nidan, or the media bashers who don't really know what goes on in the Cards front office because the Cards are so secretive.

I don't think you always defend Graves, Skkorp. For what it's worth, I thought you've been pretty even-keeled in regards to Graves considering the history there.

Part of me wanted to believe that Graves didn't watch film, which would be an excuse for how bad he's been about estimating players' potential and value.