ESPN on Cardinals' Decision-makers

[Duckjake]

This is overall the best pre-draft participation we've had on the Cards board in ASFN's short history. Keep it up.

Hey Rats, when was Bob's golf tournament? Was that in 2000 or 2001?

 

[CtCardinals78]

Sadly having to use a 1st or 2nd round draft choice to specifically replace one player does not meet the definition of easily. If we could replace him easily we would just get a guy from some small college in the 6th round and throw him out there at LT on Sundays.

Don't ever forget that while getting rid of David Boston and Frank Sanders proved to be a good thing it cost the Cardinals two first round and one 2nd round draft choice to replace them.

(It still bothers me that Boston went south so fast that the Cards had to let him go just 1 season after he set the franchise single season record for receiving yards. It just seems like we can never catch a break.)

I am fairly confident we can replace Davis's 8-10 sacks allowed a year and his 1-2 penalties a game costing the offense 10-20 yards a game with a second rounder. Besides if HE really wanted to stay he would have taken less and worked out a contract. Big was a big loss, but not detremental.

 

[Zeno]

I am fairly confident we can replace Davis's 8-10 sacks allowed a year and his 1-2 penalties a game costing the offense 10-20 yards a game with a second rounder. Besides if HE really wanted to stay he would have taken less and worked out a contract. Big was a big loss, but not detremental.

You are just making up stuff now. Davis did not commit 16-32 penalties a year.

 

[CtCardinals78]

You are just making up stuff now. Davis did not commit 16-32 penalties a year.

Yup I was using hyperbole. No he didn't commit 16-32 penalties a year. But he DID commit 10 last year. Around ten the year before also.

 

[Rats]

Hey Rats, when was Bob's golf tournament? Was that in 2000 or 2001?

It was before the Atl game where it was hot, hot hot....Still got the trophy plaque fella's Not like I did anything, we had a ringer. I want to say it was 2000 because it was Sept and I think I would have remembered 911 shortly after if it was 2001. Lets be real, I think DG did a good job in changing the Cardinals to getting wins in the offseason. He just didn't get enough on the field. The Cards got lucky getting Leinart, plain and simple. Fitz was a no brainer and the verdict is still out on Rolle and the later picks. Graves screwed up a draft but Boldin made up for it. Again lucky, plain and simple. We have painted our selves in a corner to have to pick for need when we didn't have to. That is on the front office. We may get lucky again. Maybe we will win some games on the field and not have to worry about draft position next season. That is my hope. Good discussion

 

[Stout]

Just out of curiousity if Joe Thomas is there at #5 and the Cards take him, and it appears that was the plan all along, will you give Graves and the team credit for not panicking and paying Big $50 Million just so we could say we had a LT? Or will you just call it luck?

NO!!! I'll be thrilled we managed to, by the grace of God, luck into something good, but I would absolutely lambast Graves. What kind of an idiot goes into a draft with a hole he could have filled, PURPOSEFULLY doesn't fill it, and hopes for the player he wants to fall to 5...a player that's slated as having a good shot of being taken before 5. I mean, if THAT'S the plan, why not just have Mighty Dog run the front office...he'd do just as well.

 

[vinnymac]

NO!!! I'll be thrilled we managed to, by the grace of God, luck into something good, but I would absolutely lambast Graves. What kind of an idiot goes into a draft with a hole he could have filled, PURPOSEFULLY doesn't fill it, and hopes for the player he wants to fall to 5...a player that's slated as having a good shot of being taken before 5. I mean, if THAT'S the plan, why not just have Mighty Dog run the front office...he'd do just as well.

Maybe we should petention the Cardinals Front Office for the Number one draft choice. After all it is us fans that make the Cardinals. I will vote for one of these three players in this order.

Carriker
Adams
Thomas

These are the players I feel that are worthy of the cardinals number one pick.

 

[Zeno]

Maybe we should petention the Cardinals Front Office for the Number one draft choice. After all it is us fans that make the Cardinals. I will vote for one of these three players in this order.

Carriker
Adams
Thomas

These are the players I feel that are worthy of the cardinals number one pick.

No way is Carriker worthy of the #5 pick or even a top 10 pick...probably somewhere more in the low 20's.

 

[vinnymac]

No way is Carriker worthy of the #5 pick or even a top 10 pick...probably somewhere more in the low 20's.

Kiper had Carriker going 21 yesterday. I guess today K-9 said Kiper had Carriker going to the 49ers or to the Rams.

I like Carriker. Since the Cardinals are going to 3-4 base, Carriker fits the mold for DE in a 3-4. If you like a guy, then draft him.

 

[ajcardfan]

Just out of curiousity if Joe Thomas is there at #5 and the Cards take him, and it appears that was the plan all along, will you give Graves and the team credit for not panicking and paying Big $50 Million just so we could say we had a LT? Or will you just call it luck?

That was never the prerequisite for keeping Davis. Had we tagged Davis, he'd still be sitting there unsigned today. Nobody signs the one year franchise tender before July. Then, we could have more options at #5.

I'll be as happy as a pig in slop if we get Thomas. IMO, he and Calvin Johnson are easily the best players in the draft. But, that wouldn't make the decision to put ourselves in a position of weakness going into free agency and the draft a good one.

 

[kerouac9]

Just out of curiousity if Joe Thomas is there at #5 and the Cards take him, and it appears that was the plan all along, will you give Graves and the team credit for not panicking and paying Big $50 Million just so we could say we had a LT? Or will you just call it luck?

I'll breathe a sigh of relief that we have an LT. I'll be happy because we drafted BPA. It will be lucky, because hope is not a plan.

But if he's not on the board at #5, and we reach for Levi Brown, or we go into the season with Gandy as a starting Tackle, will you demerit Graves for gambling and failing again?

We wouldn't have paid Big anyway, we could have rescinded the tag 5 minutes into drafting Thomas. Really, Graves plan wouldn't have panned out until Thomas actually makes a Pro Bowl. An alternate in the hand is worth two in the draft.

 

[Scot1]

The draft hasn't happened yet. Wait until it does to declare it a disaster." " Yeah, let's treat this like we did hurricane Katrina. There were plenty of warnings that the levee's would collapse when the storm hit, but it wasn't officially a diaster until after the storm.

Sorry to go back so far, but this is exactly what I thought--the exact same example! Congrats, Rivercard--Are you missing a twin? No matter how bad the signs and the precedents, give em slack! That might as well be the motto of the Cards.

More up to date, if the Cards get Thomas, I will not call it luck, or skill, or anything. I will be too busy cheering to type. Until, with the 3rd or 4th pick, they take another OT, any body with some promise and skill--then I will actually predict a winning record. I will exchange my depression for mania (till a reality check about mid July).

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

But if he's not on the board at #5, and we reach for Levi Brown, or we go into the season with Gandy as a starting Tackle, will you demerit Graves for gambling and failing again?

That is exactly what i was going to say. Throw in the fact the reaching for Levi Brown will have cost us landing Adrian Peterson and , well, .

 

[JasonKGME]

That was never the prerequisite for keeping Davis. Had we tagged Davis, he'd still be sitting there unsigned today. Nobody signs the one year franchise tender before July. Then, we could have more options at #5.

I'll be as happy as a pig in slop if we get Thomas. IMO, he and Calvin Johnson are easily the best players in the draft. But, that wouldn't make the decision to put ourselves in a position of weakness going into free agency and the draft a good one.

Problem with Franchising Davis and not signing him until July or just holding him there while we make a decision is his $13M+ 1 year salary cap hit would have been sitting on our books, meaning we wouldn't have been able to sign half or more of the FA's we did bring in, meaning we would have had glaring depth problems that killed us last year, and still been in a bad predicament at #5 if Thomas wasn't there because you would have had to pay Davis $13M+ for the 1 year, leaving all the holes in depth and other o-line issues, or signed him to $50M meaning you would have WAY overpaid for him and been stuck with paying him something like $18M upfront.

 

[JasonKGME]

I'll breathe a sigh of relief that we have an LT. I'll be happy because we drafted BPA. It will be lucky, because hope is not a plan.

But if he's not on the board at #5, and we reach for Levi Brown, or we go into the season with Gandy as a starting Tackle, will you demerit Graves for gambling and failing again?

We wouldn't have paid Big anyway, we could have rescinded the tag 5 minutes into drafting Thomas. Really, Graves plan wouldn't have panned out until Thomas actually makes a Pro Bowl. An alternate in the hand is worth two in the draft.

If we "reach" for Brown at #5 because Thomas is off of the board, yes I will demerit Graves for that. If we trade down to say 8-10, pick up another pick or two or another player and then grab Brown I will give Graves props for that.

 

[Stout]

Problem with Franchising Davis and not signing him until July or just holding him there while we make a decision is his $13M+ 1 year salary cap hit would have been sitting on our books, meaning we wouldn't have been able to sign half or more of the FA's we did bring in, meaning we would have had glaring depth problems that killed us last year, and still been in a bad predicament at #5 if Thomas wasn't there because you would have had to pay Davis $13M+ for the 1 year, leaving all the holes in depth and other o-line issues, or signed him to $50M meaning you would have WAY overpaid for him and been stuck with paying him something like $18M upfront.

Bull, plain and simple. It would have forced us to, I dunno, write normal contracts *gasp* what a concept! Maybe defer some money into the back end of a deal *gasp* never, not with the Cardinals!!!

Besides, unless the deal is signed, I'm not sure it's on the books. I could be wrong about that, though.

 

[BACH]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is...

Green wasn't responsible for the draft board. Keim was, AND he still is!

Keim is the highest paid scout in the league because he has some responsibilities that the GM normally would have.

 

[kerouac9]

Keim is the highest paid scout in the league because he has some responsibilities that the GM normally would have.

Wow. This is just outright fabrication. Graves made it very, very clear that stacking the board is a group effort, and it's clear--from multiple sources--that Graves has final personnel authority.

 

[joeshmo]

Bull, plain and simple. It would have forced us to, I dunno, write normal contracts *gasp* what a concept! Maybe defer some money into the back end of a deal *gasp* never, not with the Cardinals!!!

Besides, unless the deal is signed, I'm not sure it's on the books. I could be wrong about that, though.

First his cap hit wouldnt be 13 Mill it would be between 11 and 12.

A tender does not have to be signed for it to be on the books for cap purposes.

Second, you are absolutely correct. If we switched from Roster bonus to signing bonus on the players that got roster bonus and a few other minor accouting items we could have signed all the players we did and still have Davis franchise tender on the books and have the same amount of cap space that we currently have at this point in time. Yes that would mean less money next year but only by about 4-5 Mill less. But we would still have a lot of cap space.

I am over the Davis arguement though. I am glad his inconsistent but isnt here anymore but there is no question in my mind we would have got comp for him, especially with 3 rivals from the same division trying to get him at a 50 Mill price tag.

 

[vinnymac]

Wow. This is just outright fabrication. Graves made it very, very clear that stacking the board is a group effort, and it's clear--from multiple sources--that Graves has final personnel authority.

Basically what you are saying is that everyone that shows up at the draft party should join hands and pray.

Father who is heaven. We come to you and pray to give the Arizona Cardinals Organzation the strength and knowledge to draft the right players for this up coming season and beyond. We pray to you to give Rod Graves the wisdom to get it right. For us Arizona Cardinals fans have suffered enough. We know without you our suffering will not stop. We thank father.

AMEN

 

[kerouac9]

Basically what you are saying is that everyone that shows up at the draft party should join hands and pray.

Father who is heaven. We come to you and pray to give the Arizona Cardinals Organzation the strength and knowledge to draft the right players for this up coming season and beyond. We pray to you to give Rod Graves the wisdom to get it right. For us Arizona Cardinals fans have suffered enough. We know without you our suffering will not stop. We thank father.

AMEN

Amen. They should put this up on the jumbotron when the Cards go on the clock.

 

[BigRedArk]

Rod now is in charge, in part, to bring family peace between Mike B and Bill Jr. He is the neutral party that Bill Sr trusts.

He also is a loyal guy who has taken many a public whipping in place of the family, and that is definately valued by the old man.

The one benefit I see is that the old man trusts Graves. So Graves will the freedom to do stuff that it would take several years for a newcomer (no matter how well regarded) to earn. Sad but true.

Yeah I agree an interesting post en fuego. A question that comes to mind is does Robert Kraft need an employee to take a public whipping for him? How about the owner of the Broncos? Do the Rooney's?

An owner that knows what he wants, knows how to get it, is committed to getting it, and isn't afraid of the flak he might get for going after it, doesn't need a team official to take a public whipping for him.

 

[Stout]

First his cap hit wouldnt be 13 Mill it would be between 11 and 12.

A tender does not have to be signed for it to be on the books for cap purposes.

Second, you are absolutely correct. If we switched from Roster bonus to signing bonus on the players that got roster bonus and a few other minor accouting items we could have signed all the players we did and still have Davis franchise tender on the books and have the same amount of cap space that we currently have at this point in time. Yes that would mean less money next year but only by about 4-5 Mill less. But we would still have a lot of cap space.

I am over the Davis arguement though. I am glad his inconsistent but isnt here anymore but there is no question in my mind we would have got comp for him, especially with 3 rivals from the same division trying to get him at a 50 Mill price tag.

 

[kerouac9]

Just out of curiousity if Joe Thomas is there at #5 and the Cards take him, and it appears that was the plan all along, will you give Graves and the team credit for not panicking and paying Big $50 Million just so we could say we had a LT? Or will you just call it luck?

Jason, I read this in Simmons's column today, and it was a better answer to your question than what I'd originally written:

"If anything, winning a top-two pick gives the owners, the front office and the coach a cushy 'Get Out of Jail Free' card for the next two seasons. It's like having your business manager blow a $100,000 investment, immediately fly you to Vegas, slap down another $100,000 on a blackjack hand, get a blackjack on that same hand, then hand you the $150,000 profit and tell you, 'See, I told you everything would be OK, now you're up for the year!'"

Now, replace "top-two pick" with "Joe Thomas", and that's exactly how I'd feel.

 

[football karma]

Yeah I agree an interesting post en fuego. A question that comes to mind is does Robert Kraft need an employee to take a public whipping for him? How about the owner of the Broncos? Do the Rooney's?

An owner that knows what he wants, knows how to get it, is committed to getting it, and isn't afraid of the flak he might get for going after it, doesn't need a team official to take a public whipping for him.

The Cardinals manage the salary cap conservatively. Rod Graves stands up and takes the heat for it by explaining its all part of his strategy -- a strategy that marries perfectly with the owners desire for a nice profit margin and his aversion to risk.

Now -- all 31 other owners like a nice profit margin and manage their teams accordingly. To think otherwise is naive. The Steelers, Eagles, and (until this offseason) Patriots, among others, manage their salary cap conservatively as well -- even going as far as letting popular players walk over money. They may get some grief, but not much because after all -- they win.

People focus on the Cardinals spending because of Bidwill's reputation and because its an easy proxy for "desire to win". Spending however is a red herring. The Cardinals havent won principally because they havent drafted well. There are a variety of factors why -- but thats it in a nutshell.

Fun fact-- 97 players at this year's pro bowl. 1 was on his current team via a trade, 8 were on their current team via free agency and 88 were on the teams that drafted them.